Larry, I am not trying to get you to change your mind. I am grateful for what you are trying to do. I was just pointing out some truths about human nature. And those who will be signing up for your seminary do have a human nature this side of glory. Sometimes it is hard to tell why people post on certain things. It appears that your OP was simply intended to be informative. By some of the conversation in this thread I thought maybe you were looking for input. I apologize.

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Larry, it is very interesting and informative. I may strongly consider it at a later date, as I will have time for study, but little funding and no ability to travel anywhere.

Jonathan

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Jonathan Hunt

Preaching Elder
Cheltenham Evangelical Free Church (Confessionally Based)
Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, United Kingdom

Logic is a systematic method of coming to the wrong conclusion with confidence.
-- Thomas Elsworth

I'm always looking for input, don't get me wrong.
I just don't particularly agree with some of the input.
I'm not at all upset, i'm sorry if it came out that way.

__________________
Larry Bray
Training for Elder - Reformed Presbyterian Church of Boothwyn, PCA
Boothwyn, PA - http://www.rpcb.org/

Free Online Reformed Seminary - http://www.tnars.net

-----------------------------------------------------
"The best Christian is still a poor Christian" - R.B. Kuiper

We would love to have you on board.

Also as I currently am leaving my church, but not yet a member of another I would have no church officer to recommend me.

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Bryan Riddle
1689 London Baptist Confession
Bethel Baptist Church Owasso, Oklahoma

It would help if you read the post as a whole to try to get the balance I was seeking. It's not much to ask to be read charitably, is it?

If you re-read my post, I think you would see that I agree with the statement quoted above, which was my point as well. Quality of training is the issue. Whether it is free, or cost $100,000, a man should pursue the best training possible.

I never said that as a hard and fast rule, "you get what you pay for." You can blow a lot of money at a lot of liberal seminaries and get squat. Please don't put words in my mouth! I am saying, that there are things that are worth paying for. As a presbyter, having briefly looked over the curriculum, I could not in good conscience recommend a man pursuing the high calling of minister of the word and sacraments to pursue this institution, because the curriculum is not adequate.

For instance, ST 1 requires reading vol. 1 of Hodge, and writing 19 short papers (500 words is aprox. 1 page single space with 12 point font).

So, read a book and write 19 pages, and you've completed a 3 credit hour course. I did more work than that for credit in college, much less seminary! At the bottom, it says, "This class is an indepth study of systematic theology." Based on my studies at WSC and WTS, I humbly disagree.

I have tried to offer helpful criticism to you as a man who serves on the "research department" that oversees this seminary. I have suggested you make a personal investment of a few hundred dollars to purchase materials that will show you step by step how your ST curriculum pales in comparison to others being offered. I do this because I care about the church, and about the men who are being trained for the ministry of the word and sacraments. You would send men to the Presbytery having never read Vos, Ridderbos, Berkhof, Murray, Kline, and others. Men need to be prepared to ministry in this current theological context, and need to be at least exposed to the various controversy's that are taking place today. I see no place for that in the TNARS curriculum.

There is a reason that I purposefully chose the name "institute" for the organization I started. I didn't want anyone to be confused about what they were getting. What I offer, although the lectures are ver batim from the classroom, is not the same as what a seminary offers.

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Andrew Moody
Pastor - Christ Covenant OPC - Amarillo, TX
Director - Amarillo Theological Institute
Owner - Reformation Art
Amarillo Reformed Fellowship

I'm glad you're getting a good *laugh* out of this discussion David. I, however, don't think it is a laughing matter. As a presbyter, I take the issue of preparing men for the gospel ministry extremely serious.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said that spiritual gifts are dependent on man and his institutions.

I sense an accusation here? Please do elaborate on exactly who you think is "peddling the gospel for cash?" Is it the PCA? Covenant Seminary? Please tell us who!

I am not a seminarian, but other than the time management and self-discipline that is required (which is necessary for any educational pursuit) I find the curriculum to be generally simple. If I were to become a full-time student, then such requirements for an MDiv would not be so taxing. I say this to reiterate the point others have made that this seems to be a scaled down program compared to the costly accredited institutions. 1,000 word essays and 5,000 word essays are not too much to ask at all. I remember Dr. McMahon mentioning that while he was in seminary he was required to write three sentences for every paragraph of Berkof's Systematic. That is quite the requirement but can only be effective.

My suggestion is that if you really intend for this to be equivalent (as far as degree obtained) to the accredited institutions, require what they require. It is a lot of work, but in many cases the student can not help but know the material if they complete the assignment.

The other reasons I feel this can not replace traditional seminary education are the same reasons that have been belabored in past threads regarding distance education versus on campus education. Pastoral candidates require human interaction. Some of the greatest minds have the worst people skills. How will this seminary prepare students in rhetoric and social interaction?

Again, I am very encouraged by this and would recommend it for the layman and church officer. It is the issuing of equivalent seminary degrees that concerns me.

__________________
--chRis
Psalm 115:1

Christopher Reeder
Husband to Kara, Father to Abigail (7), Caleb (6), Grace (4 1/2), Zoë (2 1/2), Elijah (1) and Baby Girl due 8/6/08

Member: Pilgrim Presbyterian Church (OPC), Raleigh, NC

Pastor,

If you re-read all my posts you will plainly see that I have gone out of my way to be respectful to you in this discussion. I am taken aback at the tone of your last post. If you think I have been disrespectful to you in anyway then I apologize for not communicating the respect you deserve as a Pastor and will try to do better in the future.


I do want to (respectfully) point out in a post in another thread:

PCA's Ministerial Glut

For someone who has been seeking a call, with no geographical limits to the search. I found those statements about going for less money okay providing there was the ability to live. I know one young man who came to seminary with $30K school debt for undergrad and after 7 years of school loans for his MDiv and PhD his debt load has to be over $100K so I think that the cost of the education must needs be brought into the equation.

So again, I ask. Is it right in light of the scriptures to require such a sum of money from someone just to prepare them for the gospel ministry? I would love to be able to train for the ministry but due to monetary constraints (just married, new baby and just adopted my step daughter) I am not able to get the education that is needed. So do I think it is wrong/a sin to charge exorbitant tuition fees? Yes I do. It keeps the poor among you from having any chance at the ministry without having to go into debt. It also keeps those that think going into debt is wrong/sinful to get the required education to go into the ministry.

Do I have any one college or institution in mind? No. Do I think that the current system needs to be reevaluated? Absolutely.

In Christ,
David

__________________
David E Yoder, II

Member of Covenant Presbyterian Church in Oak Ridge, TN (PCA)
Living in Knoxville, TN

I was simply telling you how i would judge my pastor...which is what you asked me to tell you.

o.k., now we're getting somewhere.
So would it be more acceptable if our curriculum had the student read 3 books per class and write 20,000 words instead of 10,000?

I don't agree that Hodge is not a indepth systematic theology, but i can agree that there could be an improvement...which is why i asked for specifics.

In my op i also asked for people to come on and volunteer their time to make the school better, but nobody has offered that. I see more criticism than actual willingness to help in many of the posts here (not all of the posts).


Biblically speaking, an Elder is not required to read Vos, Ridderbos, etc.
Further, i think it much more profitable to be trained in what the truth is as opposed to what controversies are around....there are always new controversies and if one is well founded on the truth one can make a defense for the faith without having studied any new controversies that may come up.

I do think studying controversies is important, i just don't see it as a biblical requirement for the office.

Perhaps it would be helpful if you defined what you mean by 'help out'. That was the spirit in which my comment was made. It was not made with a spirit of 'criticism'. Are you asking for people to enter into some kind official relationship with the seminary?

I would like to point out that not all of the classes at TNARS are reading a book and doing a paper.

For instance...

NT Theology
Requires a book with a 5,000 word assignment
Plus 39 lectures with a 7,000 word assignment

Doctrines
Requires a book with a 1,000 word assignment
Plus 55 lectures with a 11,000 word assignment

Exactly...i'm asking if anyone is interested in becoming a member of the Research Dept., or even just designing some classes for us that we can incorporate into the school without becoming an official member.

The trick is that the classes must remain completely free, not even purchasing of textbooks being required.

I am currently asking the Bible Centre if we can join them as that would give us free access to modern books (like Reymond's systematic theology).

David, please accept my apology for misreading your tone, which is easy to do in this medium.

[/quote]So again, I ask. Is it right in light of the scriptures to require such a sum of money from someone just to prepare them for the gospel ministry? I would love to be able to train for the ministry but due to monetary constraints (just married, new baby and just adopted my step daughter) I am not able to get the education that is needed. So do I think it is wrong/a sin to charge exorbitant tuition fees? Yes I do. It keeps the poor among you from having any chance at the ministry without having to go into debt. It also keeps those that think going into debt is wrong/sinful to get the required education to go into the ministry. [/quote]

The Reformed seminaries I'm familiar with, and who the vast majority of PCA and OPC pastors come out of, are not out to get rich. They do try hard to keep tuition costs down, and make education affordable. However, when you have 10-20 full time professors that are salaried, plus the cost of keeping up grounds, etc, the money has to come from somewhere. Even so, the cost of tuition does not normally reflect the cost of the education. It is already significantly off-set by donors. I don't recall the figures, but I remember hearing that several times at WSC.

One important thing to note is that the seminary is not the church, except for schools like Covenant where there is direct denominational control and oversight. They are para-church organizations and have to be good stewards with the funds entrusted to them. So, I would not charge them with any wrong doing with regards to finances.

It is then, up to the student to handle his own finances. Each does it a different way. I would never advise someone to take on a $100,000 debt to go to seminary!!! This of course is an extreme case, but it does happen. My student loans (college + seminary) are a little over $20,000. The reason they are not higher is because I had financial assistance from my family.

Although it's not exactly public knowledge, the OPC does make exceptions for men who do not go to seminary. Now, this is definitely the "exception" and not the rule. But, if the Presbytery is satisfied with the man's gifts and knowledge (gained through self study and mentorship), then they can request an exemption from the GA. The GA does approve such exemptions. However, the standards are not lowered for such a man, and in my own experience he is held to a little higher standard. I have heard that such is not the case in the PCA at this time.

It's an imperfect system, for sure. The church is relying on para-church organizations to train its ministers. However, it's the system we have, and it works ok for now.

What is definitely needed is more church support, in terms of $$$$ for men pursuing the ministry.

Thanks Larry,

Yes, I noticed this, and I think especially the courses that you utilize from Covenant that include the lectures are far better than the others along the lines I mentioned before.

I do agree that Hodge is indepth, my critique was of the course as a whole. For instance, I think a pastor needs to be able to understand such issues as theonomy, the NPP, different modern views of the days of creation, etc. Yes, these and other topics are addressed by Hodge, but not in the same depth as more current volumes that are more up to speed on the discussion.

Hodge is fantastic, however, if he were alive today, he would do a good bit of updating to his own work given the context.

If you email men like Dr. Richard Gaffin (WTS Phili), Dr. David Van Drunen (WSCal), and others, they might be willing to send you a copy of their course syllabus so you can get a feel for what is involved (how much reading is required, how much written work, exams, etc). I do think exams are helpful, in addition to written assignments.

Also, because of only using one book, you cut out the research component. That was one of the great benefits of seminary for me was learning how to do research, to plow through a number of sources to find what I need, etc.

This can still be done with free sources online, but you would need to identify those sources and provide links, etc.

I do think there is a lot of potential, however, IMO the curriculum still needs a good bit of work.

Larry,

I love your idea and want to encourage you. In this not-a-one-size-fits-all world, there should be room for the Westminsters and the alterantives. That is why I personally like open source software, free resources such as e-Sword, and courses such as those provided for free by RTS and Covenant (not to mention online resources such as White Horse Inn).

In the area of software, for example, in addition to the works available on their site, one internet location lists more than 650 e-Sword compatible resources. Wordsearch provides their latest engine for free and more than 100 books without cost. Truth is Still Truth will show you how to get the Libronix engine free and dozens of classic reference books gratis as well for that format. Add the proliferation of PDF files of the classics and you have a full library. It is amazing how much good Reformation, Puritan, and Reformed books can be had at no cost on the Internet. Today a curious learner could easily have a "library" on their laptop stretching into the thousands of volumes with no outlay of money.

With RTS, Covenant, and the many MP3 lectures on the Net for free, there is ample material out of which to cobble together a significant theological education. All that is lacking is the accountability and structure to ensure that real learning goals will be met at a respectable level of accomplishment. But, please note, that is an important part of the package. You will need lots of volunteers willing to help make this concept work out in practice.

As a graduate of both traditional and non-traditional accredited schools, I can vouch for the value of a non-traditional program. And, as a way of providing education for someone who does not "need" the certificate, but merely wants the education, it could be a gift from God. May the Lord bless your dreams.

__________________
Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)

what if he has a nightmare!!!

May the Lord bless your dreams of serving him by serving his church and grant you wisdom in your efforts.

Better?