As I say in my bio, and as many of you know, I'm planning to attend seminary after college, with a plan for ministry if my session observes and confirms that call, as well as plans to write and perhaps teach as well. Since I have two years left of undergraduate education, I was planning not to ask for much input from the board on this topic until I was closer to the time I will actually be applying to seminary. Upon further recent reflection, however, I hardly think it is possible to get too much input too early, so as to have as much time as possible to think and act with the greatest amount of factors and advice to consider.

I am basically considering two options: Reformed Theological Seminary in Jackson, and Westminster Seminary California. As such, I´ve been attempting to organize and compare the different pros and cons for each relative to my situation and plans. One thing of which I am certain is that I will never be certain as to which way to go until I actually visit both campuses. Even so, as I said above, I want to start early and hopefully minimize any future occurrences of "I wish someone had mentioned that factor earlier." In other words: Fire away. I'm interested in hearing about different experiences people have had with both, the different churches near both, the differences in theological emphasis and roots people have observed, the financial aid programs, and literally anything else that might be part of anyone's two cents.

One of the initial different factors I have noted thus far in my surface observation of each is that it seems to me (correct me if I´m wrong) that among faculty in particular, there is a higher concentration of Presbyterians at Jackson, and a broader variety of traditions represented at California (such as Continental Reformed). For my own situation, I see advantages to both, as I most likely plan to minister in a Presbyterian denomination if my call is confirmed. Thus, the seemingly predominant exposure at Jackson would be good preparation for that. On the other hand, it is for the exact same reason that I see the exposure to both Presbyterian and Continental tradition and theology at California as being quite valuable for learning and ministering. Also, one theological difference that would be hard to miss is WSC's emphasis on the Law-Gospel hermeneutic, of which I have heard comparatively little from RTS-Jackson. It is an issue I'm still studying. Another difference, and one that would be in favor of Jackson, is the slightly lower tuition as well as cost of living. On the other hand, a difference that gives WSC more weight is that I have already been at least somewhat exposed to southern culture and people in Memphis, whereas I have not had such exposure to southern Californian culture and people, which is always valuable in ministering to people. Two other advantage I would have at either of the schools is that I would be learning under certain widely influential and well-known pastors as well as professors, and I already have a couple of connections at each (through the schools and just through the city as well).

But those are just my rough observations from my largely non-existent exposure. So again, fire away - please. If there are certain things anyone would just rather not say on a public forum, shoot me an e-mail (I would prefer that over u2u). I value any and all input on different general or specific factors relating to the comparison of the two seminaries, or just about either one of them.

__________________
Chris


A passion to know and reflect Christ by living and demonstrating the truth and richness of the historic Reformed faith

Visit My Website Here

Christopher Blum
Member of Trinity Presbyterian Church of Northern Kentucky (PCA) in Burlington, KY

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Chris,
I have to say I feel for your quandary. I am also set to finish my BA in two years, though mine is in Interdisciplinary studies with concentrations in History, Philosophy and Classics. I personally intend on attending WSC, though my choice was easier than yours. For the time being I am aligned with the ARBCA and the IRBS is located at WSC. Secondly, I intend on pursuing both an M.Div and an M.A.H.T. with the idea of going on to the University of Aberdeen for a Doctorate in Church History. The M.A.H.T programme at WSC is apparently set up to put students at Aberdeen so it all fits quite well. Again however those are my reasons, plus of course the faculty is amazing

The link below by JayBird has an extremely interesting chart on one of its pages:
http://www.gpts.edu/sem_compare.html

Even if you don't like the school, it provides an interesting overview of course breakdowns.

[Edited on 6-30-2006 by Hungus]

__________________
Robert K. "Kelly" Brumbelow
Soon to be at Christ Covenant - Mansfield
University of Texas at Arlington - Pre-Professional Philosophy
Arlington, Texas

Dear Lord and Father of mankind, Forgive our foolish ways;
Reclothe us in our rightful mind, In purer lives Thy service find,
In deeper reverence, praise.

Chris,
Would you ever consider <a href="http://www.gpts.edu/" target="_blank"><font color="Navy">Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary (Greenvilled, SC)?</font></a> Our pastor is a graduate, and now serves on the board. You can reach Pastor Worrell through the link below - please be patient - you may not hear back right away. I can provide more info via U2U or otherwise offline.

Cheers,
J. Sulzmann

__________________
~Jay~
Husband of ENS, father of J II. | Indian Trail, NC
Substitute Teacher
Communicant Member, Precentor | Presbyterian Reformed Church of Charlotte, NC | Presbyterian Reformed Church

I faced the same two choices Chris. I would have loved to go to Westminster West. But RTS Jackson worked out best for my situation. You being a young single guy can probably make it at Westminster no problem. Theologically, I don't think you will find much of a difference. The problem for me at RTS is there are so few of us OPC guys here. It's hard to keep in contact. But other than that I have really enjoyed my time here and learned soooo much. I don't think you can go wrong with either choice.

__________________
Patrick
OPC
MDiv, RTS Jackson.

"He does well, that discourses of Christ; but he does infinitely better, that by experimental knowledge, feeds and lives on Christ." Thomas Brooks.

WSC, for as long as I can remember, has been my top choice, although I have considered other Reformed seminaries from time to time. I think that the faculty´s scholarly interests and the unity and love that they have with each other and their students really did it for me. I´ve read some of their books and articles. I´m particularly interested in Dr. Horton´s "œCovenant and Eschatology"�, and Dr. Clark´s works on Protestant Scholasticism and Covenant Theology. I´ve listened to their sermons and sat in on their lectures. Have you? I´m willing to send you the CD set of "œThe Means of Grace Conference"� if you promise to listen to them quickly and send them back. Dr. Estelle´s discussion in Pentateuch was fascinating and generated a lot of discussion. He methodically presents his case, and then allowed students to raise objections or affirmations. Dr. Duguid seemed to enjoy the fruits of his students´ study in Hebrew IV calling on them randomly to translate passages. He then asked them to parse verbs in front of 30 students. If they messed up, he made some wise cracks, in good fun of course. I also attended seminary for a day, where I got a chance to sit down and shoot the breeze with the entire faculty except for Dr. Clark because he was teaching a class. They are foremost men of God, and they have very endearing personalities. They were poking fun at each other; we shared some good laughs. Dr. Horton came in late with his cup of coffee, and I remember Dr. Godfrey giving him a hard time for it. I went back to visit for a few days during a non-seminary schedule visit to make living arrangements and further consider my attending WSC. They welcomed me as if I was one of their own incorporating me into their classes and acknowledging my presence. I attended classes like a regular student for three days. I got a chance to sit three feet from Dr. Clark during his lecture on Ursinus and Perkins. I got the opportunity to sit in on Dr. Estelle´s prayer group--what an incredible opportunity. I know for sure that I won´t have a hard time becoming friends with these men and growing in my knowledge of Christ, our Savior and King.

The staff and faculty are very accessible. If you want to talk to them, you can. I encourage you to call Dr. Clark and personally ask him the questions you have presented here. I did, and we talked for a couple of hours. I asked him, "œWhat do you think distinguishes WSC from RTS or WTS?"� He answered candidly and we talked about other light matters. If you like his posts, you´ll really like his verbal commentary. Please call him. Email all the professors for that matter. Contact Mark MacVey (Director of Admissions) and other WSC students. I can set you up with some students if you would like. Ask them your questions. Do the same for RTS. I´m also willing to talk to you over the phone. Just email me.

Since you´re interested in going on and getting your PhD as I am, check into the faculty´s scholarship interests and where they got their degrees from. Chances are, they have connections that might prove profitable in the future. For instance, if you would like to go to Oxford, I think that it´s wise to know someone that went to Oxford.

The climate is another factor for me. I could never make it in the South. I also love the beach (I might take up surfing), and WSC is about 20 minutes from it. When I visited in March, I went for a run to the seminary every day, and the scenery and temperature were appealing. The seminary is absolutely beautiful, especially at sunrise with a light rain kissing my skin. The faculty and students also find time to recreate together in the lush, green grass after class, when midterms or finals week aren´t lurking in the background. I was there during midterms; there were only six of us attempting to play Ultimate Frisbee, which ended up being regular Frisbee because there were so few of us. I understand, however, that this happening is outside of the norm. Dr. Estelle is also the ultimate trash-talker. If you´re good at Frisbee, you´ll have to make him look bad!

[Edited on 30-6-06 by Joshua J. Forrest]

[Edited on 30-6-06 by Joshua J. Forrest]

[Edited on 30-6-06 by Joshua J. Forrest]

__________________
Joshua J. Forrest
Husband of Erin and Father of Jackson
Member of Escondido OPC
Graduate of NAU: B.A. English and German; Classics Minor
Westminster California MAHT Student

Excuse me, as a Baptist, for butting in here, but what about Covenant Theological Seminary in St. Louis? Naturally, I don't know all the "ins and outs" of the PCA, but I would think the seminary would have some consideration. Is there a problem with Covenant?

__________________
Ivan Schoen, Pastor * Maranatha Baptist Church, Poplar Grove, IL * http://maranatha-sbc.org/

"I want to assist churches and to assist pastors in training pastors. But, after fourteen years of service in this capacity, I am absolutely certain that the finest theological seminary on earth is absolutely incompetent at replicating the actual life of a Gospel congregation. I want to train a generation of pastors who will train pastors, and I want to help them in that task." --- Dr. R. Albert Mohler, President of THE Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Louisville, KY

Not forgetting that things can change with time... RTS was founded by men who would later be among the founders of the PCA. Theologically its roots are Old School Southern Presbyterian. CTS started as the RPCES seminary and would be more in line with the New School in the north.

As I recall the president of CTS was involved with the PPLN. After many battles over a number of years by various groups, the PPLN was finally able to move the PCA away from a strict subscription standard.

If I were to consider seminary (highly unlikely at my age), CTS would not be on my short list.

__________________
Soli Deo Gloria

John Schultz
Member, Riveroaks Reformed Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Germantown, TN

"The reason why we worship God in a slight way is because we do not see God in His glory"
Jeremiah Burroughs

Chris,

I appreciate your desire for input concerning seminaries. Thankfully, you have some good seminaries from which to choose. It is an exciting time for you as you consider the various options before you. I hope the following is helpful.

Why do you want to go to seminary? You mentioned, "ministry...as well as plans to write and perhaps teach as well." I know this has to do with the whole issue of calling, with the guidance of the church, as you correctly pointed out. I also acknowledge that the process takes time, but this will help guide you. If you have a burning desire to enter into pastoral ministry, then you want to go to a seminary that emphasizes preaching and the practical work of ministry. If you desire Presbyterian ministry, then I would recommend a seminary where the Westminster Standards are woven through the instruction and esteemed by the faculty. Does the seminary require subscription to the standards? Are the professors men who have submitted themselves to the brethren, and thus to the standards of the church? Or to they just pay lip service to it as evidenced by their writings? You need to ask the hard questions.

How do you plan to serve the church with your calling? I mention this question since I have known men who want to seminary simply because they like theology and to debate complex issues. With some there is no expressed desire to serve the church. This troubles me. How are you serving your church? Perhaps your elders could provide opportunities to serve and teach, if they have not already. Unfortunately, many sessions are not proactive in guiding and testing their men. If you desire to teach in a college or school, then accreditation requirements should be considered when looking at seminaries.

Why do you have to go to seminary upon graduation from undergraduate studies? Why not work for a few years, build up some savings, and learn a trade that could be useful to you at a later time. Furthermore, you could use this time to serve in your church and perhaps take some initial classes while your still at your home church, providing a context in which to apply what you are learning and interact with your session. During this time you might develop a deeper sense of calling and confirmation from the church and have a better idea of what you are looking for in terms of a seminary.

This leads to the following:
Do you have enough by way of savings (or income source) to support yourself for three to five years? In what way would the church support you?
Many, in God´s providence, do not have large savings or ability to produce significant income for seminary studies. I do think, however, it is best to plan ahead as much as you are able. I've seen too many men come to seminary with no financial plan. Some end up dropping out or having to work extra, delaying their studies for a number of years. Then sickness or marriage and children come, only adding to the financial responsibilities. Whenever you go to seminary and whatever you choose, I would strongly recommend that you research tuition amounts, costs of living, make a budget and plan with your session. Does the seminary provide any type of tuition waiver, etc. I´m sure you have considered all of these things. If you do need to work while in seminary what skills do you have in order to be employable? You have options before that could keep you from leaving seminary in debt.

One last comment to throw in the mix: Don´t overrate the California cultural experience as a means of helping you to minister to people "“ I´m a native Californian!

Chris, I´m rambling"¦ Again, I´m glad you are asking questions early on. I was in the same situation a number of years ago. Keep us posted concerning your plains.

My


Mike

__________________
Mike Cuneo
Calvary Presbyterian Church (PCA), TE
Greenville, SC
Church Planter, Viterbo, Italy
www.MissionToItaly.com

"It was once said to me of another, 'He's a good man, but somehow he never reminds me of Jesus.'" David Dickson

Thanks for the input so far, everyone. There are several reasons I have basically settled on RTS-Jackson and WSC as my main considerations, from confessional commitment to faculty to accreditation. Since Greenville and Covenant were mentioned"¦the reason I´m not really considering the first is simply because of accreditation, and the fact that I definitely want to keep the possibility open of eventually doing post-graduate work. Regarding Covenant, from various readings, news pieces and hearsay over the past year or so, I´ve gotten the definite impression from several sources and people that the faculty and curriculum, while certainly not anti-confessional by any means, are nonetheless not as strongly confessional as those at the two I´m comparing.

Patrick, that´s interesting to hear that you were deciding between the same two. Would you mind elaborating (again, a post or an e-mail both work equally fine for me) on what some of the factors were that made RTS-Jackson work out best for your own situation, as well as what role you think being single might play in the two different schools and settings? At this point, I´m not sure whether or not I´ll still be single when the time comes. Thanks.

Joshua "“ it´s good to hear things like that, giving an idea of certain aspects of one´s "œexperience"� that aren´t available in brochures or the like. On similar notes, I definitely plan to talk with professors before I go on to visit the schools. I most likely will not visit until at least the latter part of the coming school-year. In the meantime, I have definitely begun to familiarize myself with written and audio work from various professors, which is helpful. I also appreciate your offer to briefly lend me your CD set from "œThe Means of Grace Conference,"� and I think I would similarly profit from that as well (particularly since I haven´t heard audio material from any WSC professors other than Scott, Mike and Bob). You can shoot me an e-mail (listed in my profile), and I´ll give you my address. I´d also be interested in talking over the phone sometime.

Thanks for your comments as well, Mike "“ and by the way, welcome to the board as well! I have (and continue to) greatly considered, studied and prayed over the implications and biblical meaning and purpose of pastoral ministry, and how my person and gifts would (and do) relate to that. I still have questions, struggles and challenges to work through, to be sure, and it´s always good to be reminded on the importance of that continual process. One of the reasons I feel called to minister is that in addition to always having had a passion to study theology on my own (which every lay-Christian should have), I have found that I also have both a desire and a gift for explaining it to people as well as relating it to them on a personal level, in spite of my introversion. Thus, one of the many things that draws me to both RTS-Jackson and WSC is both schools´ definite focus toward training people for pastoral ministry. Furthermore, that is actually one of the reasons I plan to enter seminary right after college, in that for my situation I see more value in getting more of that exposure as soon as possible "“ especially since my undergraduate years will already have provided some time to serve and work with people at my current church, and the remainder of those years as well as my actual years in seminary will afford me the opportunity to practice another profession (which is also the reason religious studies is practically the last thing in which I would have considered majoring). I´m still comparing and weighing the financial issues, and studying investing on my own time as well. Concerning RTS-Jackson and WSC, have you personally had any experiences or just mere observations that give you certain impressions (theological, academic, cultural, general, etc.) about either one versus the other?

Thanks again for the input so far. KEEP IT COMING!

Hi Chris,

I'm in Pittsburgh right now with limited access to the web.

Send an email (rsclark@wscal.edu) with your number and I'll give you a call in a few days.

Blessings,

rsc

__________________
R. Scott Clark, D.Phil
Professor of Church History and Historical Theology

"For Christ, His Gospel, and His Church"
Associate Pastor
Oceanside URC
The Heidelblog

Chris,
Concerning RTS-Jackson, I have heard some of the men preach and have been built up. I have known some men who have graduated form RTS-Jackson who seem to be well trained and active in ministry. Somebody else who is more knowledgeable will have to comment more concerning RTS-Jackson. The cost of living would be less.

By comparison, I know more people who have gone to WSC. The faculty has changed in the past so my inclination might be more favorable now than it was prior. I spoke to one of the board members in the past. He is solid and has a desire to continually see improvements. This is encouraging. I have heard Dr. Godfrey (history), Dr. Jones (several times - recently at a GA event) and others over the years. I've been thankful for the seminary´s commitment to stand firm on the Covenant - Justification issues that are presently before the church. In the past, however, I have not been pleased with some of the things taught (i.e. framework hypothesis) and the seminary´s tolerance of such views (this was prior to denominations speaking on the matter).
I have no doubt you would be academically prepared at WSC and that you would be under the leadership of godly men. Regarding preaching, confessional emphasis (WCS) and polity, I don´t know.

One area in which I would do some follow up is in homiletics (this applies to all seminaries). Of course, seminary can't give gifts to men. It can, however, provide a strong emphasis and thorough training. Are its graduates known for their preaching?
Dr. Clark might be able to give you more information concerning homiletics.

You have a U2U Chris

Hi,

Yes, we do have faculty on both sides of the 6/24 creation question. We've been very open about that. See our Testimony for Our Time.

Your question about our confessional commitment gets right to the point about which I was lecturing here in Pittsburgh yesterday. 6/24 creation is not a good boundary marker since it admits Seventh Day Adventists and Fundamentalists and excludes Warfield and Machen! I humbly submit we have a lot more in common with the latter two than the former. This is not an argument about whether 6/24 is correct but whether it is a suitable marker of orthodoxy.

We at WSC all confess heartily and ex animo "in the space of six days." We might differ on what this means, but that's why we have not only the original context of the confession (which is very important) but the animus imponentis i.e., the reception of the confession by the churches. Few of our churches (e.g., the OCRC, the RCUS) require 6/24 creation as a matter of confessional orthodoxy. The others, e.g., the OPC, PCA, and URC, have taken a conservative, principled pluralistic stance. They allow the view you say ought not to be taught. On this point it seems to me that your argument should be less with WSC and more with those churches that don't meet your standards. So far, the OPC, PCA, and URC have not decreed that the Framework is beyond the pale and they've had 5 decades in which to do it and two of them have conducted extensive studies by committee. Have you read the OP and PCA reports?

I do not believe that there is another seminary more committed to the Reformed confessions than WSC and we do not apologize for continuing the old Princeton and old Westminster tradition of tolerating exegetical differences over Genesis 1.

As a matter of pedagogy, if one does not want to hear the major views on this question discussed openly and fairly, if somone only wants to hear one's own views, then WSC is not the place. We believe that good preparation for ministry means confronting head-on all the pastoral and theological issues that a minister will face. A catechism class is perhaps not the best time to have try to figure out what "the other side" actually says, in their own words, about their point of view.

We are not obscurantists. Dr Estelle presents all the major views concerning the creation days and allows the students to make up their own minds on the basis of the exegetical and theological data.

As to preaching, our faculty are committed to preaching the whole counsel of God as understood and confessed by our churches. We preach the law and the gospel and we apply the text as required by any particular passage. Hywel Jones is one of the finest preachers of our time and an excellent example of what we're trying to teach our students to do. The same could be said for the rest of our faculty, the present writer excepted.

Some folk seem to have opinions about our homilietics based on outdated information. We are Reformed confessionalists at WSC and we teach a Reformed approach to worship and homiletics.

I resist the implication of the post that somehow WSC is a really just an academic place, but not a good place for spiritual formation. This is not true. We are not the church. We are a school, but we insist that our students attend to the means of grace and make due use of them. We meet for prayer weekly and we meet for chapel on two other days and there are informal prayer groups that meet to pray for missions and other needs. We certainly try to foster an atmosphere that promotes piety, godliness, and preparation for ministry.

Trying to demonstrate one's piety is, of course, most difficult. The more one protests that one is pious, the less one is apt to actually be pious! Phariseeism lurks around that corner to be sure, but I hope this helps to settle whatever misconceptions might exist about WSC.

rsc

Dr. Clark,

Thanks for your post. I agree with most of what you said except for the comments pertaining to what you saw as implications of my post. I did not appreciate the tone of your post, but also realized that I could have been more attentive to how I stated things. I also realize that you probably have many stereo-types and generalizations that you come across in regard to the seminary, thus prompting your response.

I could have been clearer when stating, "I have no doubt you would be academically prepared at WSC and that you would be under the leadership of godly men. Regarding preaching, confessional emphasis (WCS) and polity, I don´t know"

First, concerning "confessional emphasis, and polity," I did not mean to put it in a negative light - I simply "do not know" "how" these things are interwoven into the education.
In light of the seminary's stand, for example, on justification, I don't question the integrity each man's stance toward his church's confession. This is a clear statement of its commitment to the Bible and confession. My question pertains more to how the seminary interacts with men from different denominational backgrounds. Since there are men from different churches at the seminary, does the seminary tailor the coursework for students from various backgrounds (i.e. Dutch Reformed - Three Forms; Presbyterian - WCS)or perhaps have an elective for them? Or, when presenting material is there more of a harmonizing of both confessions? This might be helpful for Chris to know.

Second, concerning preaching, amen. Thank you for mentioning Hywel Jones - I did not remember him in my post. I have heard very good things about him from others. I hope to hear him some day. I don't disagree with your statements, but simply do not know enough about the program and the seminary's emphasis on preaching (how many credit hours? internship requirements?) I was encouraging Chris to follow up to find out and to get feedback from people. BTW: Chris, do this for RTS-Jackson as well.

Third, concerning "obscurantists" and the creation issue, I don't think anyone has charged you with being such. Of course, my comment regarding Framework was an opinion I had when I was considering seminary. At the time I had not read the OP and PCA reports because there were no reports (the committees had not yet completed their work). I'm not at all against learning other views. I would agree that justification, for example, would be a more vital and "suitable marker of orthodoxy." Thanks for explaining the seminary's position.

Fourth, I mentioned that one "would be academically prepared and that" he "would be under the leadership of 'godly men.'" I would agree with your comments concerning the insistence on the means of grace, but disagree with the perceived implication that I was saying, "WSC is really just an academic place, but not good for spiritual formation." The prayer and chapel times that you described are reflective of "the leadership of godly men." In fact, some of my mentors and friends are godly men who were at WSC.


Your Brother in Christ,

Mike

BTW: Chris, In the past year I have commended both WSC and RTS-Jackson as viable options for men looking into seminary. You are aware that in the end you must ask the questions and do the research.