Thread: Choosing a seminary

Hello all,

I am currently attempting to weigh different factors in choosing a seminary, and also want opinions on the seminaries I am considering.

I am a member of the PCA, and would like to become a pastor in the PCA or OPC in the future (though I would consider another denomination - I just don't want to be fighting to get "back into" my denomination). I am married, my wife and I don't have much in savings, and we do have undergraduate student loan debt. We are both unemployed at the moment, and I'm praying to consider if that means the Lord wishes us to go to seminary sooner or push it off till later.

Cost is a factor - I would like to get scholarships, if possible. I would like to go to a seminary that will prepare me as a solid Biblical (and Reformed) pastor.


Seminaries I am currently considering:

Mid-America Reformed
RTS (Charlotte)
Westminster
Covenant
Greenville
Gordon-Conwell

Mid-America is currently my top choice - though it's mostly because I haven't heard anything negative about it.

Greenville is a top contender, though I am somewhat leery of its unaccreditation (in case I wish to do further degrees at a Reformed university), and its seemingly isolationalist stigma from being the last bastion of Reformed Presbyterianism.

Covenant may yield extensive scholarships if I come under care of my presbytery - but I've heard it has a tendency to yield weak pastors (though I know some of my ability to be a pastor is what God has given me before going into seminary).

Thoughts?

Thank you.

Depends on what you want. Before you get any commercials from posters who are affiliated with one of the above or another Reformed seminary (nothing meant by that) let me just say that it matters a great deal where you go to seminary (take it from a guy that made a poor seminary decision).

Some questions.

1) Are you married? Do you have kids?

2) Does your Pastor/Presbytery have any place he/they recommend you go?

3) Does location/distance matter much?

There are a ton of other questions, but I'll stop here and let others chime in.

If cost is a consideration. This would be a seminary that you could consider.

The North American Reformed Seminary

Can't get cheaper than free. Plus a PBer is the president (Larry Bray).

(By the way, I don't go to seminary there but have heard good things).

Originally Posted by Backwoods Presbyterian

Depends on what you want. Before you get any commercials from posters who are affiliated with one of the above or another Reformed seminary (nothing meant by that) let me just say that it matters a great deal where you go to seminary (take it from a guy that made a poor seminary decision).

Some questions.

1) Are you married? Do you have kids?

2) Does your Pastor/Presbytery have any place he/they recommend you go?

3) Does location/distance matter much?

There are a ton of other questions, but I'll stop here and let others chime in.

Thanks for your reply.

I am married, no children yet, but hopefully in the next five years (which may affect the seminary timeframe). Pastor and presbytery have no preference, so far.

Distance is not a factor, but location is somewhat. For example, Jackson, MS doesn't appeal to me, but Greenville and Charlotte do because of their proximity to my wife's family. Dyer, IN is also near a friend who is a pastor (not a paramount concern, but helpful). Covenant's location is also attractive.

Mitch -

I want to encourage you - as long as you are healthy - to consider the Army's chaplain candidate program.

If you want to "only" be a Reserve chaplain, you can get a significant amount of tuition assistance from the government. Plus, in between semesters you can go to the army installation of your choice (!) and get paid as a commissioned officer. I made about $25-30k each year I was in the reserves just working between semesters. Plus, once you commission into the chaplaincy you get a 10k bonus.

I'll tell you that my experience in the chaplaincy has been a God-send. I've gained a lot of experience very quickly.

The experience is great, the service opportunities abound, the pay is great...

For someone in your shoes, again, as long as you are able to pass the physical exam, this could be the answer to a lot of your concerns.

BTW - of the schools you listed I'd do either Westminster (specifically, WSC) or RTS- Charlotte.

I don't know why you have ruled out Jackson but let me offer a couple of things.

My wife and I moved here far away from all our family, MN, IA, MO, and MI so I understand your dilemma about family.

1. The cost of living is very cheap here.
2. You can get a 2 bedroom apt. on campus for about $500 a month, try that anywhere else.
3. Miles Van Pelt is here!

Just some food for thought. I am just starting my second year here and love it. They have a new Biblical Exegesis emphasis in the MDiv that will prepare you very well for pastoral ministry.

Originally Posted by SolaScriptura

Mitch -

I want to encourage you - as long as you are healthy - to consider the Army's chaplain candidate program.

I'd second Ben's advice.

I am a civilian (and have health issues that did disqualify me from enlistment), but pastor a local church body that includes many soldiers and airmen, just a few miles from Fort Drum, NY.

They always need more chaplains, and are willing to do great things financially to assist qualified folks in getting their education. It's a great ministry field; certainly something to prayerfully consider.

I have interacted with faculty from both Greenville and RTS-Charlotte and they have impressed me greatly as godly men who are passionate in training others for the ministry of the gospel.

The President of Greenville, Joseph Pipa, has preached at my church on several occasions. He is a gifted preacher and very personable. As you probably know, the emphasis of Greenville seminary is on training preachers. Other seminaries have programs that would better accommodate those seeking to become professors, translators, missionaries, etc.

I have also had the blessing of sitting under the teaching of Douglas Kelly, who is a professor of systematic theology at RTS Charlotte. He is a great preacher too and preaches in a very simple, easy-to-understand, but thoroughly orthodox manner. One of the pastors at my church went to RTS Charlotte and loves Douglas Kelly. He affectionately recounts spending hours in Kelly's office when in seminary.

If distance is not a factor then Redeemer Seminary might be worth your time to investigate. It is formerly WTS Dallas and is located in Dallas, TX and the Southwest Church Planting Network is adjacent to the seminary. You'll be able to get access to Dallas Theological Seminaries (Evangelical) and Perkins School of Theology (Critical) libraries as well as University of Dallas library (strong in Philosophy).

Check out the website, if you have anymore questions just PM me.

The Big 3 for aspiring PCA pastors used to be Covenant, RTS, and Westminster. Greenville might hurt you in some of the more liberal presbyteries. Most of the Gordon Conwell folks I have known were conservatives in the PCUSA.

It looks like one of your criteria is to be near a large city.

If you are looking for an inexpensive education, (and particularly looking to be a pastor), then GPTS is the place to go. If you want to keep your options open in regards to further education (PhD), then it would be best to find a seminary that is accredited on a national level through regional accreditation or the ATS (such as MARS, which is a candidate for ATS accreditation).

You should apply at multiple places just to see how much the school will offer in terms of financial aid. Westminster West awarded me a large scholarship, which is the only way I could afford to attend.

Mitch,

I'm happy to talk over options with you. Write me at

rsclark at wscal dot edu

You should also contact the financial aid dept and admissions dept at WSC (888 480 8474). Mark MacVey is away right now but the financial aid dept can help you do some planning.

Best,

rsc

Originally Posted by PointingToChrist

I am married, my wife and I don't have much in savings, and we do have undergraduate student loan debt. We are both unemployed at the moment, and I'm praying to consider if that means the Lord wishes us to go to seminary sooner or push it off till later.Thoughts?

Thank you.

While it is great that you are prayerfully considering whether the Lord would have you prepare for the ministry, I would encourage caution. You have a wife to support, educational loans to repay, and are unemployed. Now is not the time to consider additional debt. Focus on finding a job that will allow you to take care of your responsibilities, while serving the church.

Who can top a personal invitation from Dr. Clark? Go West, young man, Go west.

Originally Posted by Sven

Who can top a personal invitation from Dr. Clark? Go West, young man, Go west.

How 'bout I get Dr. Mohler talk to him?

Hi:

Though I may sound prejudicial I think that my seminary is the best:

RPTS: Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary

They have put together a faculty of pastors/scholars/teachers that is unmatched in any seminary. The professors have all at one time or another been pastors, they are well-knowledgable in their fields, and they are all excellent teachers.

To give you an example: My favorite class this past year was Greek - and I am not that good at languages.

Wherever you choose to go - I wish God's richest blessings upon you.

In Jesus,

Rob

Originally Posted by PointingToChrist

Hello all,

I am currently attempting to weigh different factors in choosing a seminary, and also want opinions on the seminaries I am considering.

I am a member of the PCA, and would like to become a pastor in the PCA or OPC in the future (though I would consider another denomination - I just don't want to be fighting to get "back into" my denomination). I am married, my wife and I don't have much in savings, and we do have undergraduate student loan debt. We are both unemployed at the moment, and I'm praying to consider if that means the Lord wishes us to go to seminary sooner or push it off till later.

Cost is a factor - I would like to get scholarships, if possible. I would like to go to a seminary that will prepare me as a solid Biblical (and Reformed) pastor.


Seminaries I am currently considering:

Mid-America Reformed
RTS (Charlotte)
Westminster
Covenant
Greenville
Gordon-Conwell

Mid-America is currently my top choice - though it's mostly because I haven't heard anything negative about it.

Greenville is a top contender, though I am somewhat leery of its unaccreditation (in case I wish to do further degrees at a Reformed university), and its seemingly isolationalist stigma from being the last bastion of Reformed Presbyterianism.

Covenant may yield extensive scholarships if I come under care of my presbytery - but I've heard it has a tendency to yield weak pastors (though I know some of my ability to be a pastor is what God has given me before going into seminary).

Thoughts?

Thank you.

Hello Mitch,

Are you familiar with LAMP seminary? It is through the PCA. Here is a link: LAMP Theological Seminary

I will be attending this fall through my church in Wisconsin. I see that there is a local prescence in CT. Christ Community Presbyterian Church is hosting this. The learning sire coordinator is Al Baker. PM me if you have more questions about this program as it has been a true blessing to me, who is unable to leave my area and current vocation and the price is as reasonable as it gets.

Originally Posted by sans nom

While it is great that you are prayerfully considering whether the Lord would have you prepare for the ministry, I would encourage caution. You have a wife to support, educational loans to repay, and are unemployed. Now is not the time to consider additional debt. Focus on finding a job that will allow you to take care of your responsibilities, while serving the church.

I have to echo the sentiments of my brother Matt here. Not to pry, but if you are married and both you and your wife are unemployed, how are you currently supporting yourselves? I completely support your calling to pastor and am a firm believer in seminary, however I think your first calling is to support your family.

On a personal note, I am recently married (May) and I too sense a calling to pastor. My wife and I applied to seminaries and were accepted to WTS. However, after much prayer and consideration we have decided to defer our enrollment until we are more financially stable. We have quite a bit of student loan debt. I presently have a good job and my wife (recent college grad) is looking for work. We plan on working and maybe doing some online courses before relocating and beginning seminary. I am seriously considering TNARS at this point, mainly because of the value.

The best advice i can give you is to live frugally, save up some money, pay off as much debt as possible, and wait on seminary for a little while. Also try, try, try to avoid any more studen loan debt! If God has truly called you, then waiting a year or two to begin seminary will not affect that calling. Besides, the stress you will avoid will be way worth it. And, if you feel like you must begin studies now, then either personal study, TNARS, or other affordable online options can be considered.

Whatever your decision brother, I will certainly be praying for you. I know it is not an easy decision, but our God is faithful!

Whatever you pick choose based on with whom you want to study and work with. I am doing my undergrad (going to seminary after) in french linguistics and I choose this solely based on the fact of a local church and 1 prof.

Originally Posted by PointingToChrist

Mid-America Reformed
RTS (Charlotte)
Westminster
Covenant
Greenville
Gordon-Conwell

Mid-America is currently my top choice - though it's mostly because I haven't heard anything negative about it.

Greenville is a top contender, though I am somewhat leery of its unaccreditation (in case I wish to do further degrees at a Reformed university), and its seemingly isolationalist stigma from being the last bastion of Reformed Presbyterianism.

Covenant may yield extensive scholarships if I come under care of my presbytery - but I've heard it has a tendency to yield weak pastors (though I know some of my ability to be a pastor is what God has given me before going into seminary).

Thoughts?

Thank you.

Disclaimer: GPTS student

I don't know enough about Mid-America to comment. RTS (Charlotte) has some fine educators but is quite inclusive. For example, many of my friends from Bob Jones aren't Reformed, but they go there for seminary. At RTS, I get the impression one may be more easily "lost in the crowd." Westminster is truly fantastic in academics, but the cost is definitely a prohibitive factor. I have heard a few older men remark that the attention to "making pastors" was a bit lacking there, but I'd check it out and decide for yourself.

Covenant seems to be hard to nail down. The several people I know affiliated with it are all over the spectrum from "great school" to "run away, run away." A campus visit and some study of the professor's publications would be good so you don't have to rely on second-hand opinions.

Greenville is more specifically targeted for producing pastor-preachers, and they do a good job. I've personally been amazed at the difference in quality between entering students and exiting students. (At many grad schools people seem to come out pretty much how they went in.) Their program strengths are in pastoral, historical, and systematic theology. The 4 year MDiv allows for much more detail in some areas - 15 credits in historical theology compared to RTS' 6, for example. Also, the intense mentoring/internship requirements (something like 700 hours) really work alongside the curriculum to produce graduates who have a real idea of the ministry. I'm not in that part of the program (MA student), but I think it's great that they're "forcing" students to spend so much time directly under the supervision of experienced pastors. They learn a lot outside the classroom.

I don't know that Greenville is too isolationist. At least, I hear good things spoken about MARS, PRTS, RPTS (you know, other small schools with strong identities). They do have a strong sense of identity and mission, which you may or may not agree with. They're definitely not trying to become the biggest school by any means necessary. Regarding accreditation, I agree that it's a problem. I don't think it would bar you from doing further study at a Reformed school like WTS, but it could make it difficult to move outside of Reformed circles.

Apart from recommending a specific seminary, I would strongly encourage you to consider cost in your decision. You already mentioned that you have undergraduate debt. If at all possible, DO NOT go into debt in pursuing your seminary education. Let me repeat: AVOID DEBT if at all possible.

While I would not say that cost alone should be the factor, if you continue to add to educational debt, you may find yourself limiting your opportunities in the future. For example, you may find yourself having to turn down a call simply because the package is not large enough to support your family AND help you pay off your debt.

This is really one of the advantages that attending a denominational seminary will help with. Because I attended my denomination's seminary (Erskine), and because it is supported by the churches in the denomination, I was able to leave seminary without any debt. My first church was very small and could not offer a large package, but I was able to pastor there because I did not have a huge debt burden hanging over my head. Because you are PCA, I would suspect Covenant would be advantageous in this regard (you already mentioned scholarships available), and Greenville is both inexpensive and gives further breaks to PCA students, iirc. I think Mid-America is also relatively inexpensive, but even more so to URC students.

As was mentioned above, factor in the cost of living. The closer you are to a large city, the more expensive it will be (most likely). OTOH, Greenville doesn't cost that much to live in, and Jackson even more so. I'm not so sure about some of the other places.

That's just my , but I cannot stress enough the debt situation. I know of two specific incidents where pastors were hampered in their ministerial opportunities because of educational debt. My advice would be not to let that happen to you.

x 1,000,000,000

The Reformed world has many, many superb teachers in its varied seminaries. However, I'd add these comments:
- An ATS accredited seminary may help you down the road as you discover there are many ways to serve as a "Reverend", i.e., hospital, prison, hospice, law enforcement, business & military chaplaincies. Having a degree from an ATS school can eliminate one possible barrier in seeking such ministry opportunities.
- Seek a school with a strong preaching program. I personally like Covenant due to Dr. Chappell and others...but RTS/Charlotte has a wonderful preacher in Dr.Milton, too (President and Army Reserve Chaplain).
- Remember - if God is calling you to the ministry, He will provide for your family needs along the way. His "call" includes provision for jobs, finances, housing, etc. It may not be easy, but testimonies abound of His Sovereign assistance.

Originally Posted by chaplee

The Reformed world has many, many superb teachers in its varied seminaries. However, I'd add these comments:
- An ATS accredited seminary may help you down the road as you discover there are many ways to serve as a "Reverend", i.e., hospital, prison, hospice, law enforcement, business & military chaplaincies. Having a degree from an ATS school can eliminate one possible barrier in seeking such ministry opportunities.
- Seek a school with a strong preaching program. I personally like Covenant due to Dr. Chappell and others...but RTS/Charlotte has a wonderful preacher in Dr.Milton, too (President and Army Reserve Chaplain).
- Remember - if God is calling you to the ministry, He will provide for your family needs along the way. His "call" includes provision for jobs, finances, housing, etc. It may not be easy, but testimonies abound of His Sovereign assistance.

Doug - Wow! Glad to see you on the PB! But now I've got to watch my P's and Q's...

Grrr...

I typed a wonderfully lucid reply, and then the upload timed out.



Anyway....


This thread has plenty of good information and advice.

We visited RTS-Orlando in March (it's dangerous for people living in PA to visit anything in Orlando in March). It struck me that if I became a FT student there I'd be far older than most students (I'm 47).

But I think we're in a point in life where it may be possible. I don't relish learning Hebrew and Greek (my first language was French and I'm still fluent, but that's different), and I really don't look forward to "starting out" in a completely new vocation at 50-something.

The RTS course on iTunes have been a real eye-opener, and I've been impressed with the lectures. I wish WTS would publish courses on iTunes so I could sample those as well.

I'm disappointed someone would categorize Covenant as turning out "weak" pastors. I wonder what is meant by weak?

When people say "I've heard..." and have no first hand knowledge, all I hear is "blah blah blah blah blah". Pretty irresponsible in my opinion.

I would caution against receiving such an assessment without actually talking to several grads and visiting the place yourself.

Seminary is just part of what trains us to be pastors. No place you go will be complete in the training sense. I see it as more complex and longer term than that.

Originally Posted by Reepicheep

I'm disappointed someone would categorize Covenant as turning out "weak" pastors. I wonder what is meant by weak?

Charitably speaking, perhaps it would be someone of limited experience. The senior pastor of the church where I'm a member certainly couldn't be called that.

Frankly, if circumstances were a bit different at the time I would have gone to Covenant in '78. I could have commuted to school, stay in St. Louis and received a good education. But it wasn't to be.

How about PRTS?

PRTS

Studying under Joel Beeke? Uber-cool.

MARS is where we get most of our preachers from (and we've had a great student pastor from there, Jeph Noble) and so I have seen it produce great things, no complaints there!

Originally Posted by kvanlaan

How about PRTS?

PRTS

Studying under Joel Beeke? Uber-cool.

MARS is where we get most of our preachers from (and we've had a great student pastor from there, Jeph Noble) and so I have seen it produce great things, no complaints there!

And if I were and young man (and didn't go to Southern Seminary) I'd be headin' to PRTS and Dr. Beeke.

Dude, listen to R. Scott Clark!!!

Westminster Seminary California is the best seminary in the world. You need a place that will teach you how to properly distinguish the law from the gospel! Plus SoCal weather rocks. Seriously in these critical times especially in the light of recent attacks on the gospel from Federal Vision, converted Roman Catholics and the Emergent Church you need to have a top notch academic presentation of the gospel and it's defense in this age.

peace

I'm an RTS-Jackson grad in the PCA.

If you want to be a Pastor (and only a Pastor, not going on to doctoral work) and you want to go into the PCA/OPC then I would say #1 Greenville. Unaccredidation doesn't matter unless you are going to go on to doctoral work. church's don't care of it is accredited or not, they know the seminary. Like what is said above, you might be not allowed in some presbyteries (in the PCA) because of that.

If you just want to be a pastor, i would say rule out Gordon-conwell all together. It seems to be liberal there (from my interaction with it) and it is very expensive to go to seminary there.

RTS jackson, I think is okay if you want to be a Pastor, but you can do the doctoral thing if you want from there. Many do. RTS Charlotte would probably be the same, I wouldn't go to any other RTS campuses. Jackson is cheap vs. Charlotte which is much more expensive.

Andrew, are you free to state what presbyteries in the PCA would not be "Greenville-friendly"?

How about Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary?

Originally Posted by Marrow Man

Andrew, are you free to state what seminaries in the PCA would not be "Greenville-friendly"?

Do you mean "presbyteries" in the PCA?

Originally Posted by Calvinist Cowboy

Originally Posted by Marrow Man

Andrew, are you free to state what seminaries in the PCA would not be "Greenville-friendly"?

Do you mean "presbyteries" in the PCA?

yes, duly noted and corrected!

Originally Posted by Ivan

Originally Posted by Sven

Who can top a personal invitation from Dr. Clark? Go West, young man, Go west.

How 'bout I get Dr. Mohler talk to him?

Our session wouldn't approve, and he probably wouldn't come "under care" of the Presbytery....

Originally Posted by Romans922

If you just want to be a pastor, i would say rule out Gordon-conwell all together. It seems to be liberal there (from my interaction with it) and it is very expensive to go to seminary there.

1. Most GCTS grads are headed for the pastorate, and the godly M.Div. grads I know reflect well on their alma mater. Many are involved in ministry at our O.P.C. church in the neighborhood. Those who are confessionally Reformed are no more or less so than confessionally Reformed WTS grads in ministry I have known.

2. The "L" world tars some good people very unfairly. I've had a little interaction with GCTS too (Th.M., '09), and I didn't find it liberal, just denominationally diverse.

3. Don't anyone assume it's too expensive without contacting the financial aid office. Like most well-established schools they offer scholarships to offset the stated tuition. I think I paid 50% of the stated cost, and lived inexpensively (relative to the area) on campus.

I won't trash the other schools mentioned - some are excellent places, and where God guided me to may not be where He sends you. May God bless you in your search, Pointing to Christ. Regarding acreditation, I would caution readers to remember that we don't infallibly know now what our needs will be later.

Cheers!

Thank you all very much for your replies and private messages to my search for a seminary. I only found Puritan Board recently, but I am very encouraged by such a large group of believers who take the word of God seriously.

My responses:

Backwoods Presbyterian: I am married, but no children as of yet. It is our hope to have children in the next few years, which may coincide with seminary if we were to go soon. Pastor and Presbytery have no recommendations as of yet. Location and distance matter somewhat. Charlotte is attractive because it is near my wife’s family. But, a place like Dyer, IN for MARS only has the quality for being near a friend in regards to location (which isn’t as strong of a pull as the seminary itself).

John Lanier: I have considered TNARS in the past, and it is still a possibility. However, I am somewhat skeptical of the viability of an unaccredited, completely-online seminary education. I don’t dispute the quality of its teaching, merely the framework.

SolaScriptura: My wife is very amenable to the idea of being a chaplain. Military is not at the top of my list, but it is not something I am ignoring, either. I’d like to chat with you more later on about your experiences.

Bookmeister: I have not ruled out Jackson, MS completely, but the location doesn’t appeal to my wife and me at this time. Perhaps that may change if the Lord opens doors pointing toward there.

cbryant: In regards to Redeemer (formerly WTS Dallas), I could be very wrong about this, but didn’t that seminary take in Peter Enns after his resignation from WTS Philly? If so, I’m somewhat leery of a seminary that would take in a person like that after the controversy, but if I am wrong, please forgive my error.

Edward: I wouldn’t say being near a large city is an absolute, just if it has relations to family or friends we know live near.

Calvinist Cowboy: Could you or anyone else explain accreditation for me? I saw the Department of Education’s website, but is it they who do the accrediting, or other bodies? And is there accreditation that would be deemed by another educational institution to be “not good enough?”

Dr. Clark – I will email you soon!

sans_nom: This is something we are praying and considering. On the one hand, I don’t want to presume the Lord will bless this if I jump into it, but nor do I want to delay a calling to be a pastor if that is the Lord’s will. I think scholarships may enter heavily into it. At the same time, I don’t think my Bachelors lends toward a promising career in Connecticut. Ministry aside, my “career” is going nowhere. Though it may be the Lord wants me in this situation, from a practical financial standpoint, waiting around may not build up funds.

Michael Doyle: I just heard of LAMP recently. I’m not sure if it is right for me, but I know Al Baker and will talk to him about it. I will also talk to you more about it.

Andres: The Lord has blessed us with friends, family (and the government) who have given us food, money, and other things to sustain us during our unemployment. It’s been such a blessing. I have (and still am) considering many of your suggestions.

Chaplee: A friend of mine who viewed the thread told me who you are! I’d like to speak with you soon.

Reepicheep: I understand your aversion to second-hand knowledge, but I don’t have the time or resources to visit every seminary, nor start taking classes with every one. I have friends who have seriously considered going or have first-hand interaction with Covenant grads. I have not made a final judgment on Covenant, but I respect those opinions of my friends who have close knowledge. I will be speaking to people from Covenant, however.

Lenflack, Emmanuel, Sven, Ivan, CalvinandHodges, jogri17, CharlieJ, Marrow_Man, chaplee, DanMcCormack, kvanlaan, Reformed_City_Rockers, Romans922, DavidG: thank you for your comments.

Please continue to post as you feel led. I am still considering many things.

G P T S

Sincerely,
a GPTS student