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09-15-2007, 01:52 PM
|  | Puritanboard Freshman | | Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Centreville, MD
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shackleton  Fiirst of all, I will abmit Dr. Talbot is hard to get a hold of. He is very busy. He is the president of WTS, plus he is a pastor of a church and moderator of the RPCGA. He is constantly going to meetings and trying to grow the school and the RPCGA. Plus, Florida is in a different time zone, from where I am at least, so keep in mind if it is 11:00 here, Kansas, it is 12:00 there.
A degree at WTS would only be limited if you did not have the backing of the church you attend. It is run with the idea that your pastor, or at least someone you know close at hand, will be your mentor and is willing to spend the time training you. I did not have this, but Dr. Talbot himself is my mentor, which helps tremendously. You do not have to "attend" so many hours there but depending upon the program you take, you may have to go to Florida to take a final comprehinsive exam, with other programs this is simply done over the phone.
This is a very good school. I came into the program with only a limited understanding of what it meant to be Reformed, coming from a holiness, oneness Pentecostal background, and now I wholeheartedly believe, and teach, others these doctrines.
The first 5 classes are a heavy course load, as they are trying to build a foundation. If you have been Reformed long these will not be hard and you should blow through them. You can even test out of some if you feel you know the material well enough. I did not, and it is taking me awhile, but that is best given my background.
In the M-Div program. You start out will Hermenuetics 4 hrs, sys theo 4 classes all 4 hrs except one which is 5 and that one is on salvation. These use the books, Francis Turretin's institutes, Calvin's Institutes, Raymond's Theology, you will read through all of these, then there are some other books thrown in just to solidify what you have learned. In all the first year consists of reading about 2-3,000 pages writing about a hundred pages and listening to lectures. Then after you make it through this foundation period, it slows way down to 2-3 hour classes with significantly less reading. These include, Biblical Theology with Vos, and Witsius. Two classes on Aplogetics, mostly Gordon Clark. Biblical Ethics with Bahnsen, John Murray and Samuel Bolton. Biblical Culture with Gene Edward Veath. Then four classes on church history followed by extensive classes in the OT and NT. While throwing in the learning of Greek and Hebrew. After this it gets into the classes you would need to run a church, and preaching. I am not going to be a pastor, so I am doing an emphasis on either apolgetics or more theology. It is extensive and not for the faint of heart as it is all to be done according to your motivation to complete it in a timely manner.
For Biblical Counseling. It is strongly Nouthetic using books from Jay Adams and others. It also has classes in hermenutics, Systematics, Apologetics, History and Ethics. Then with this foundation, which is not as extensive as the M-Div program, you start on classes in counseling. Marriage and Family 1&2, Advanced Biblical Counseling 1&2, History and Methods of Counseling 1&2, practicum and thesis. Altogether it is 5 theology and 7 counseling.
IT IS NOT ACCREDITED! However, The PCA accepts it for ordination, I am not sure of other groups such as Continental (Dutch) or Independent Reformed churches. I am talking with someone next week to find out where they stand on it. I would recomend finding out before you start. If you have plans on teaching somewhere other than a church, like in a school or seminary, you should not go here for undergrad and grad since the lack of accreditation is a weakness. There are some prominent people who have gotten post grad degrees here. Whitefield Theological Seminary - Home
Here is the homepage to the school. On the left hand side there are links to catalogues with more info.
I hope this is somewhat helpful. If there are any other questions ask and I will see if I can answer them. If not I can ask Dr. Talbert personally when talking to him, since I talk with him on a weekly basis. He is very nice and helpful, once you get a hold of him. If you think this is for you stick with it. It is for people who want to be solidly reformed. | Thank you very much. Your response is very helpful and appreciated.
I too do not look to this as an effort to become a fultime pastor. I am a riling elder in a PCA church and see whatever road I take as one to best prepare me for service after retirement which is 8 or so years off. Currently I teach and mentor in the church and serve as the principal of a local public middle school.
Thank you once again for the detailed and helpful response! God Bless,
Conrad
__________________
Conrad W. Judy, Jr.
Ruling Elder, Eastern Shore Reformed Presbyterian Church, Centreville, MD
James Pepper: You know, there's an old saying, Miss Sally. There's no law west of Dodge and no God west of the Pecos. Right, Mr. Chisum?
John Simpson Chisum: Wrong, Mr. Pepper. Because no matter where people go, sooner or later there's the law. And sooner or later they find God's already been there. - Chisum (1970)
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09-15-2007, 05:03 PM
|  | Puritanboard Freshman | | Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Clinton, SC
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Originally Posted by Kevin 
Good points Don. You should understand your purpose & goals before you choose. The lack of ATS status may mean little now but could seriously limit your options later.
Most Americans do not know this but claiming a "degree" from a non accredited school is considered fraud in parts of the world. | Could you elaborate on that last statement about non-accredited schools and fraud in parts of the world. Don't misunderstand, many of us in the U.S. consider many non-accredited schools as frauds. However, would a place such as Whitefield Theological Seminary be consider fraudulent in places to which you referred? I've had a good impression of Whitefield.
I agree that there are a lot of good options and agree that accreditation is important, probably moreso for an MDiv than a doctorate, but I prefer accredited for both.
However, accredited does not require ATS accreditation. Some very good schools, e.g. Master's (if memory serves) are regionally accredited and have eschewed ATS accreditation.
Specifically to the OP, a Baptist will do well with SBTS.
Bill
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09-15-2007, 06:16 PM
|  | Puritanboard Sophomore | | Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Kansas City, KS
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I know WTS, since it is online, is taken by alot of people oversees. Dr. Talbot says that he has some 250 students.
It is not accredited by the same organization as either Westminster, any RTS or Covenant, but it in not an illigitimate school. It does posses an accreditation with the state of Florida and is accepted by them.
Here is what the catalogue says,
An Approved Method of Study
The Directed Study Program has been approved by the Reformed Presbyterian Church General Assembly (RPCGA). Graduates currently serve in many different Reformed and Presbyterian denominations, as well as independent and other evangelical churches.
Recognition and Accreditation
Whitefield Theological Seminary is a member of the American Federation of Colleges and Seminaries (AmFed). The Federation has established a quality educational standard in post-secondary education for evangelical colleges and seminaries that do not seek secular accreditation. The Federation is an approved educational agency by the State Board of Independent Colleges and Universities for representing and evaluating religious postsecondary institutions in the State of Florida. The Seminary was authorized to grant degrees by the
State Board of Independent Colleges and Universities in the State of Florida and continues as a Registered degree granting institution with the Florida Commission for Independent
Education.
The Seminary has also been approved by the Reformed Presbyterian
Church General Assembly as a postsecondary institution for the training of individuals for Christian service.
(This is why they are not accredited)
A word must be mentioned here about accreditation. The primary reason an institution desires to be accredited by a government agency or a private agency approved by the United States Department of Education (USDOE), is to receive federal and state funding. AmFed and all of its
member institutions accept neither federal nor state funding, because that violates the separation between church and state. AmFed is not approved as a USDOE-recognized
accrediting agency. AmFed was approved by the Florida State Board of Independent Colleges and Universities (SBICU) and continues that representation with the Florida Commission for Independent Education, to represent and evaluate Christian postsecondary institutions in the State of Florida, for the purpose of assuring conformity with the statutory requirements and the disclosure of consumertype information.
This may not sound like it is on the level, but like I stated earlier, it is not for everyone. If one has reservations about it they should simply go elsewhere. All this information is in the catalogue that I gave a link to earlier.
__________________ Erick Bohndorf, Covenant Baptist Church, KS
http://qayaqtraveler.blogspot.com/
The question for us today is, will we be like the majority of Israel and continue to look in fear at the giants in the land and urge our fellow Christians to be "realistic," or will we be like Joshua and Caleb and faithfully follow our king, trusting to fulfill every one of his promises completely? |
09-15-2007, 08:24 PM
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There is no OPC seminary. RTS is only cheap if you are factoring in cost of living vs. Southern CA or somewhere like that. Greenville is far less expensive.
__________________
Chris Poe
Mandeville, LA
"There are the foolish fanatics always to be found in such a movement and always discrediting it--the lunatic fringe in all reform movements." Theodore Roosevelt
Last edited by Contra_Mundum; 09-24-2007 at 09:57 AM.
Reason: deleting quote from Rom922 at his request
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09-15-2007, 08:32 PM
| | Puritanboard Doctor | | Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Mandeville, LA
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Originally Posted by Spear Dane Quote:
Originally Posted by elnwood I didn't think the OPC had a seminary.
Could you state why someone ought to avoid the seminaries you mentioned? | IIRC, WTS used to be OPC-related. | It was closely associated with the OPC for many years when the options were far fewer than they are now. But it isn't the OPC seminary any more than RTS is or was the PCA seminary. In both cases, the seminary was created several years before the denomination. I'm not sure what Andrew had in mind since he mentioned WTS as well as "the OPC seminary". Maybe he was thinking of the ARP or RPCNA seminary instead.
__________________
Chris Poe
Mandeville, LA
"There are the foolish fanatics always to be found in such a movement and always discrediting it--the lunatic fringe in all reform movements." Theodore Roosevelt
Last edited by Contra_Mundum; 09-24-2007 at 09:57 AM.
Reason: deleting quote from Rom922 at his request
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09-15-2007, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Pilgrim There is no OPC seminary. RTS is only cheap if you are factoring in cost of living vs. Southern CA or somewhere like that. Greenville is far less expensive. | I don't say many nice things about Jackson, but I will say this: they had awesome housing rates!
__________________
J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College
Last edited by Contra_Mundum; 09-24-2007 at 09:57 AM.
Reason: deleting quote from Rom922 at his request
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09-15-2007, 09:56 PM
|  | Puritanboard Junior | | Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Tchula, MS
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Originally Posted by Pilgrim Quote:
Originally Posted by Spear Dane Quote:
Originally Posted by elnwood
I didn't think the OPC had a seminary.
Could you state why someone ought to avoid the seminaries you mentioned?
| IIRC, WTS used to be OPC-related. | It was closely associated with the OPC for many years when the options were far fewer than they are now. But it isn't the OPC seminary any more than RTS is or was the PCA seminary. In both cases, the seminary was created several years before the denomination. I'm not sure what Andrew had in mind since he mentioned WTS as well as "the OPC seminary". Maybe he was thinking of the ARP or RPCNA seminary instead. | I was thinking Mid-America Reformed Seminary was OPC.
|
09-15-2007, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Romans922 Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilgrim Quote:
Originally Posted by Spear Dane
IIRC, WTS used to be OPC-related.
| It was closely associated with the OPC for many years when the options were far fewer than they are now. But it isn't the OPC seminary any more than RTS is or was the PCA seminary. In both cases, the seminary was created several years before the denomination. I'm not sure what Andrew had in mind since he mentioned WTS as well as "the OPC seminary". Maybe he was thinking of the ARP or RPCNA seminary instead. | I was thinking Mid-America Reformed Seminary was OPC. | OK. MARS does have some OPC influence with a couple of its faculty members and there are certainly some OPC students, among them at least one member of the PB. I am not that familiar with it but I believe it was formed in the 1990's primarily as an alternative to the CRC's Calvin Seminary.
__________________
Chris Poe
Mandeville, LA
"There are the foolish fanatics always to be found in such a movement and always discrediting it--the lunatic fringe in all reform movements." Theodore Roosevelt
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09-15-2007, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Broadus Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin
Good points Don. You should understand your purpose & goals before you choose. The lack of ATS status may mean little now but could seriously limit your options later.
Most Americans do not know this but claiming a "degree" from a non accredited school is considered fraud in parts of the world. | Could you elaborate on that last statement about non-accredited schools and fraud in parts of the world. Don't misunderstand, many of us in the U.S. consider many non-accredited schools as frauds. However, would a place such as Whitefield Theological Seminary be consider fraudulent in places to which you referred? I've had a good impression of Whitefield.
I agree that there are a lot of good options and agree that accreditation is important, probably moreso for an MDiv than a doctorate, but I prefer accredited for both.
However, accredited does not require ATS accreditation. Some very good schools, e.g. Master's (if memory serves) are regionally accredited and have eschewed ATS accreditation.
Specifically to the OP, a Baptist will do well with SBTS.
Bill |
I kinow that this is a touchy topic for a lot of people & I do not mean to offend. 
But if you were to work in a commonwealth country it is normally considered fraud to claim a degree from a non-chartered school. Since american schools do not have the same system of charters that we do a degree must be from an accredited school to be considered legit.
An american degree from a non-accredited school is assumed to be from a diploma-mill type of operation. You "may" be able to prove it is legit or you may not. I know of one person who got hired here as a school teacher with a degree from an american non-accredited school (BJU). For her to get hired she had to prove that her course of study was the equivelent of a regular degree. That entaled a full course listing (with notes and outlines) of every course taken, and the CV's of all prof's (they were looking to see if THEY had legit PhD's). This took several years AND the intervention of her MP before she was hired!
This could affect you if you were to attempt to attend graduate school, or apply for some jobs i.e. Military or prison chaplen.
To put the letters "MDiv" after your name without a "proper" degree would cause some to consider you a con artist. Just as if you called yourself "MD" after a mail-order course. In Canada your legal status would be the same, however "fake" doctors go to jail whilst "fake MDivs just suffer loss of credibility.
To be called as a pastor may not be so dificult, especially in the PCA, OPC,or ARP. Since these denominations have American roots most all of them would be willing to consider a course of study from PRTS, GTS, or even Whitefield. Although I do not know of any graduates from those institutions serving in Presbyterian churches I am certain that some of the Dutch churches in ONT must have PRTS grads.
__________________
Kevin Rogers
Sovereign Community Church, PCA
Moncton NB
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09-15-2007, 10:27 PM
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Originally Posted by cwjudyjr This thread has been very helpful as i just found it today.
I am looking for a reformed seminary with distant learning options. The dispensational-reformed Tyndale in Tx has this type of option available and works well with my situation. However, the basis of their system is dispensational first foremost and always. Otherwise a very good program.
I am looking for a reformed learning as I have begun to see the deficiencies in the dispensational position as I have studied and grown.
So here is my question. Where can I this type of delivery system? Some have distant learning but still require residencies for some or most of the degree program. The program I am looking for had cd,MP3 or DVDs for the courses and online Blackboard types of interactions while reading and writing in the course work.
I have emailed and called Whitefield in July and early august and never received a response.
Thank you for any information you all can provide.
Conrad | Brother you should check out Haddington House Trust. They offer distence and modular courses cheaper then anyone! All courses are taught by PhD's and are fully transferable to ATS seminaries such as Erskine, Tyndale, Acadia Divinity, WTS, as well as GTS,etc.
After one year of study (approx 30 hrs) you recieve the Certificate of Christian Studies. After 2 years (60 hrs) you recieve the Dip of Theol. Then you transfer to a regular seminary.
If you were to transfer to Erskine into their modular MDiv program you could use your (low cost) HH summer school courses to count toward your "on-campus" time. This combination would give you the lowest cost MDiv going, plus it would be an ATS degree!
BUT WAIT, THERE IS MORE, The summer school prof's are great. I attended christology taught by Joey Pipa, Early Church + Scotish Church taught by Jack Whytock, (plus many more)
All for less than 200 bucks a course (NOT per hour!)
PM me if you want details.
__________________
Kevin Rogers
Sovereign Community Church, PCA
Moncton NB
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09-15-2007, 11:43 PM
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[quote=Pilgrim;306575] Quote:
Originally Posted by Romans922
OK. MARS does have some OPC influence with a couple of its faculty members and there are certainly some OPC students, among them at least one member of the PB. I am not that familiar with it but I believe it was formed in the 1990's primarily as an alternative to the CRC's Calvin Seminary.
| OPC Faculty at Westminter Seminary California:
David VanDrunen
Steven Baugh
Robert Strimple
Bryan Estelle
Elizabeth Mehne
Darryl Hart
We have quite a good number of students too.
|
09-16-2007, 01:20 AM
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Ok, seeing everyone has mentioned seminaries in North America it's time to recommend a great seminary in Australia (because I work there  )!
It is Trinity Theological College. We are reformed with an emphasis on integrating the head, heart, and hands specifically for ministry at the coalface. This cannot be taught in the class room only but in a worshiping community where relationships are central (because God is himself relational as the Trinity).
We also have an emphasis on the 3-legged stool: exegesis, biblical theology, and systematic theology. These are too often played-off against each other, but in actual fact they are friends who need each other. Take one of the legs away, and things will collapse.
__________________
Marty
"There is nothing so necessary to draw us to repentance as good thoughts of God." (Thomas Manton)
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09-16-2007, 08:06 AM
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| | | Any thoughts on Crown College in St. Bonifacius, M
Here is a school not mentioned yet. Does that mean something? Can anyone shed light on Crown College in MN?
Thanks,
Conrad
__________________
Conrad W. Judy, Jr.
Ruling Elder, Eastern Shore Reformed Presbyterian Church, Centreville, MD
James Pepper: You know, there's an old saying, Miss Sally. There's no law west of Dodge and no God west of the Pecos. Right, Mr. Chisum?
John Simpson Chisum: Wrong, Mr. Pepper. Because no matter where people go, sooner or later there's the law. And sooner or later they find God's already been there. - Chisum (1970)
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09-16-2007, 02:45 PM
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| | | Crown.edu: answer to my own question...
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwjudyjr Here is a school not mentioned yet. Does that mean something? Can anyone shed light on Crown College in MN?
Thanks,
Conrad | From the website it looks dispensational and from reading the statement of faith probably arminian.
The distance learning is the type I am seeking. Why aren't there any reformed schools doing this as Crown and Tyndale in FW Tx?
Conrad
__________________
Conrad W. Judy, Jr.
Ruling Elder, Eastern Shore Reformed Presbyterian Church, Centreville, MD
James Pepper: You know, there's an old saying, Miss Sally. There's no law west of Dodge and no God west of the Pecos. Right, Mr. Chisum?
John Simpson Chisum: Wrong, Mr. Pepper. Because no matter where people go, sooner or later there's the law. And sooner or later they find God's already been there. - Chisum (1970)
|
09-16-2007, 04:37 PM
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RTS does do accredited distance classes (virtual.rts.edu). Dont know if someone has already mentioned that. I've taken one class through the virtual campus, and it was preetty good and straightforward.
__________________
Joel S.
St. Paul's Presbyterian Church (Orlando, FL)
M.Div. Student, RTS Orlando, Oviedo, FL
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09-16-2007, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by cwjudyjr Quote:
Originally Posted by cwjudyjr Here is a school not mentioned yet. Does that mean something? Can anyone shed light on Crown College in MN?
Thanks,
Conrad | From the website it looks dispensational and from reading the statement of faith probably arminian.
The distance learning is the type I am seeking. Why aren't there any reformed schools doing this as Crown and Tyndale in FW Tx?
Conrad | Have you tried RTS Virtual? I have a friend here on the board from the Dallas area that is in that program because he has work responsibilities that preclude him from being a full time student in a traditional sense. If he sees this then he can tell you more about it or you can check it out at the RTS website.
__________________
Kenneth Kneip
New St. Peter's Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Dallas, TX
M. Div. student @ WTS Dallas
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09-16-2007, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by westminken Quote:
Originally Posted by cwjudyjr Quote:
Originally Posted by cwjudyjr Here is a school not mentioned yet. Does that mean something? Can anyone shed light on Crown College in MN?
Thanks,
Conrad | From the website it looks dispensational and from reading the statement of faith probably arminian.
The distance learning is the type I am seeking. Why aren't there any reformed schools doing this as Crown and Tyndale in FW Tx?
Conrad |
Have you tried RTS Virtual? I have a friend here on the board from the Dallas area that is in that program because he has work responsibilities that preclude him from being a full time student in a traditional sense. If he sees this then he can tell you more about it or you can check it out at the RTS website. |
I have seen it. One issue is the cost at $325/ credit hour. It is an option.
Thanks,
Conrad
__________________
Conrad W. Judy, Jr.
Ruling Elder, Eastern Shore Reformed Presbyterian Church, Centreville, MD
James Pepper: You know, there's an old saying, Miss Sally. There's no law west of Dodge and no God west of the Pecos. Right, Mr. Chisum?
John Simpson Chisum: Wrong, Mr. Pepper. Because no matter where people go, sooner or later there's the law. And sooner or later they find God's already been there. - Chisum (1970)
|
09-16-2007, 08:04 PM
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I have seen it. One issue is the cost at $325/ credit hour. It is an option.
Thanks,
Conrad[/QUOT
If budget is an issue...
Check out Haddington House. The course price is 200 bucks (or less). Haddington House Trust
__________________
Kevin Rogers
Sovereign Community Church, PCA
Moncton NB
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09-17-2007, 02:48 AM
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As a graduate of a “cafeteria” seminary (Fuller), permit me a few observations.
Graduates of cafeteria schools tend to emerge with a healthy respect for diversity. Unfortunately, they also often come away with some rather unattractive unanticipated consequences.
• Confusion. After three years of hearing ideas coming at you from every side, it most typically results in a state of epistemic confusion. If far smarter “good guys” can’t figure these issues at, why should I even bother trying?
• Intellectual and spiritual latitudinarianism. If you had a Calvinist at 8:00 a.m., a dispensationalist at 9:00 p.m., a Wesleyan at 11:00 a.m., and a charismatic at 2:00 p.m. you might learn the characteristic “cafeteria” grad “shoulder shrug” too. Since good people hold such different ideas on important topics, certainly it does not really matter what you believe. The enervating results of a “cafeteria” approach can be devastating to pastoral ministry. Try proclaiming a prophetic word from the Lord consisting of “on the one hand, but on the other hand.”
• Shallow broad-mindedness. The effort to “educate” in so many disparate directions often results in a failure to go “deep” in any of them. Ask a “cafeteria” grad about the ordo salutis or the “three forms of unity” and you will likely hear a mish mash or receive a blank stare.
In one sense, it would be better if someone attended a dispensational, Arminian, or Reformed seminary rather than a “cafeteria” school. In my experience examining nearly 500 seminary graduates seeking ordination over the past 26 years, the “cafeteria” grads tend to demonstrate less self-confidence, know less Bible and theology, and suffer from a higher than average prevalence of “shoulder shrug” syndrome. Give a person a thorough understanding of the Word of God, equip him with a sound hermeneutic, and trust the Holy Spirit to lead such a person properly.
One name not always popular on this forum is a good case in point. John MacArthur (“maybe a Calvinist, certainly NOT reformed”) was schooled at Talbot, a solidly dispensational seminary. His careful handling of Scripture led him to five point Calvinism. In my estimation, that would have been far less likely if he had graduated from a “cafeteria” institution.
Certainly one coming from a single-focus seminary may have less knowledge of competing arguments and points of view. There may also be a spiritually unattractive cockiness. However, when weighed in the balance, a Westminster, Dallas, or Asbury grad is (IMHO) more likely to make an effective pastor than the typical “cafeteria” graduate.
__________________
Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)
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09-17-2007, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Kevin I have seen it. One issue is the cost at $325/ credit hour. It is an option.
Thanks,
Conrad[/QUOT
If budget is an issue...
Check out Haddington House. The course price is 200 bucks (or less). Haddington House Trust |
Kevin,
Thanks. I went there but there is only the link to by the book and to a catalog. Is there another site to see the programs, etc?
Thanks
Conrad
__________________
Conrad W. Judy, Jr.
Ruling Elder, Eastern | |
