I heard that a 9 yr. old stabbed an 11 yr. old to death. What is a just penalty in this situation? Should there be the death penalty? The news I heard is that she could get up to 18 months.

I'm not looking to debate the death penalty, but this thread is assuming it is a viable option for the civil magistrates.

openairboy

And here is another thread with "that" word in it again Jacob!!!!!!!


Just teasing you Joshua. I recently asked why this word is disucussed every minute of every day in here!!!!!



Next we will wonder.

"Pita bread found in the refrigerator, what is a theonomists perspective of this penalty due?"

I don't know, to be honest with you. Concerning penal sanctions, consider my own sociological conditioning: I am from the South and the death penalty has always been applied to murder, rape (ought to be, anyway), etc. What do we do in this situation? Many theonomists interpret other passages dealing with the death penalty applied to youth in a manner like this:
They deny that we ought to stone our 5-year old children for sassing their parents. They interpret the penalty applying to incorrigable, rebellious youung adults.

A few other thoughts to consider first:
1) I am hesistant about this situation because it is extremely dangerous theologically to derive theological norms from specific applications. In other words it is better to first find the system of doctrine in the scripture and then apply it.

2) The non-theonomist has to deal with this case as well. Well, what do you do? What does the Scripture prescribe about prisons?

3) When dealing with penal sanctions the most important question ought to be, "When is punishment criminal?"

4) Was God unjust in giving penal sanctions to old testament Israel?

Final Thoughts: I don't have an answer and since I do not live in a Christian culture, I am not pressed for an answer at the moment. I would rather overturn sodomy, abortion, and the execution of innocent americans (Terry Schiavo) than deal with hypothetical what-ifs. Now, these what-ifs are important and need to be dealt with; I think there is more pressing concerns.

However, I do not look for justice in the case above.

__________________
J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

Jacob,

Thanks for the response.

No, this isn't a "what-if", but occured in New York City yesterday or the day before. The news reports, "If found guilty, she can face 18 months in 'jail'."

What do you mean by, "I do NOT look for justice in the case above"? What do you look for? My immediate response was that she should get the death penalty. My sister and brother-in-law adamantly protested, called me irrational, but it lead to a great discussion of the Gospel and all things derived from its message.

Anyway, I remember Gary North talking about this, at least in passing, and he seemed to suggest the death penalty.

Thanks,
openairboy

I really don't have the wisdom to comment on this situation. If it were an adult, the answer would be obvious. Forgive the "justice" comment, my mine was elsewhere.

I think the judgments of God are pretty clear. Exodus 21:12 and Exodus 23-25 would apply in this case. The law of God makes no exception for children nor the criminally insane. Naturally, man has a better way to exercise judgment.

__________________
Matt Daniel
Attending First Presbyterian Church, Las Vegas NV

Under what context is the Law used in this aspect?

Wow, these thoughts are all so new to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I do not believe we can use the cursings of the Law but not the blessings. Or Visa Versa!!!!!!

WHen a crime is commited are we to go to Leviticus?

I surely hope not

[Edited on 6-3-2005 by D Battjes]

Don't want to get into if we *should/ought* to go to Leviticus today when crimes are committed, however I would like to ask 1 question. Were the punishments that were meeted out in Leviticus unjust?

For more rhetorical questions:
Is rape any more/less wrong today than it was then?
Who gets to determine the differences between sin and crimes?
If punishments were just then, then why not today?
Does God have 2 different normative/deontological standards for different groups of people or are all people called to be holy by His standards?

For theonomic writings on crime and punishment:
http://www.freebooks.com/docs/2146_47e.htm
Gary North's Victim's Rights

http://www.freebooks.com/docs/2c6a_47e.htm
Chapter 26 in Bahnsen's By This Standard (The whole book touches on the whole issue indirectly)

http://www.freebooks.com/docs/219e_47e.htm
Chapters 10, 12, 13,14 in No Other Standard by Bahnsen in response to the faculty of WTS PA.

http://www.freebooks.com/docs/2112_47e.htm
Chapters 5 and 6 in Theonomy an Reformed Response by Bahnsen in response to the faculty of WTS PA

You'll get much better insights to penology both OT and NT and the views of theonomic thinking from these resources than my snippets here and there.

Happy reading!

__________________
Chris Rhoades -33
Good Shepherd Presbyterian Church (PCA) Nashville, TN-Under Care

Vera theologia non theoretica, sed practica est; Finis siquidem eius agere est hoc est vitam vivere deiformem. - Martin Bucer
""True theology is not theoretical, but practical. The end of it is living, that is to live a godly life."

Penalogy of any sort (theonomic and non-theonomic) reduces down to this question:
When is punishment criminal?

My answer: when it doesn't line up with God's standard. Is it just to not punish a murderer? Just say bad person and that he has a troubled childhood and was acting out because of low self-esteem or whatever - send him to Dr. Phil? No, that would be wrong...not a strong enough penalty.

Contrawise - should a person who stole a pack of chewing gum get the death penalty? We all answer, of course not. But why not?

What is the underlying ethical system that differentiates? Common sense? if it was common then everyone would agree to it. etc. etc. etc. There has to be a standard and a reason that the standard should/can be enforced justly across the board. Like you said, this is a need for all people/systems.

I would think that a Christian's starting point would be God and the Bible. If everyone is agreed on that then it is a matter of exegesis. If someone wants to argue for man's reason etc. the argument starts at a different point than penology but actually epistemology.

Darn these theonomy discussions!!! Must....not....get....sucked....in.

I see the law as three parts:

1. The Moral Law or Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17)
2. The Judgments, Execution of the Law or Civil Law (Exodus 21)
3. The Ceremonial Law (Exodus 25). Atonement and Worship (with three subparts)
a. The Priesthood (Worship & Temple Service)
b. The Animal Sacrifices (Offerings & Atonement for Sin)
c. The Times (Observance of Holy Days and Sabbaths)

The context of my comment comes from the Judgments God gave to Moses concerning the means for governing God´s chosen people. In a covenant, God can do one of two things: blessings & cursings. We reap both. Would like to have more blessings.

Our means for justice are dwindling away here in the states. The death penalty has survived in some states... but I think eventually it will disappear all together. After all, the pope has declared it to be wrong. As far as the law concerning the Judgments, they are absolutely just (because God is absolutely just) These are His revealed ways of confining iniquity (keeping sin from growing in frequency and severity).

Now, naturally the United States does not adhere to these judgments... but this does not make them any less just. You ask if the Pentateuch is still in force. I would say sure... but there is a necessity for a change in the law as a result of Christ´s atonement. The Moral Law still seems to be in affect... I can not find were this has changed. I do see a change in the law as described in the book of Hebrews (Ceremonial Law). Not sure when the Judgments were thrown out (can´t find it in scripture).

Man has a tendency to throw out the law of God... the judgments are just a part of the law. We are going to come up with something better than what God has prescribed for justice.

They should be killed by the same means as they killed another, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, as Christ taught.

Gen 9:6 Whoever sheds man's blood, his blood shall be shed by man. For He made man in the image of God.
Mat 5:19 Therefore, whoever relaxes one of these commandments, the least, and shall teach men so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of Heaven. But whoever does and teaches them, this one shall be called great in the kingdom of Heaven.
What is so difficult about this?

Just a thought.... The scripture teaches "substitution".... life for life. I suppose it might be acceptable for one of the parents to bare the punishment (I don't know). Plus there is also the view that the parents are directly responsible for the actions of their children (to a certain point).

If I were king, the perpetrator would receive the death penalty unless one of the parents stepped up to the chopping block.

I'am kinda new to the theonomy ideas, so...

while i agree 100% with the need to get tough on criminals and apply biblical standards of justice, do you folks believe that there is no room for mercy or discretion on the part of those in authority?

Do rulers today sin if they chose to pardon or less the punishment on criminals? Must they strictly follow the OT punishments law by law?

Does that fact that we are living after Jesus Christ's death and resurrection have any effect on these questions?

__________________
Mark
Independent baptist
Singapore

Only on the specific laws that Christ himself (or the NT writers) rescinded.

hmm...that makes sense..

what about the other question,

if a ruler today imposes a penalty of anything less than death for murder, has he sinned?

I am still wrestling with it.
It is dangerous--and thisis why I am hesitant in answring--to draw a theological conclusion from a specific example. There are examples in the OT where the above happened without divine wrath--and there are a good number where a ruler did not impose the death penalty and suffered God's displeasure. The only problem is that I can't formulate norms from examples, not usually anyway.

In my (OPINION) absolutely,I see the hard law of God as absolutely Gracious to protect innocent peaple from tyranical criminals.Somewhere in the bible it says something about the tender mercies of the wicked being cruel.I see that as the huminists and there antibiblical law rehabilitation nonsence as spitting in the face of God and saying"we are smarter we have a more compassionate better,smarter way"and look at the results.To me law is grace. just my opinion

When you "judge" the Judgments (Civil Law) of God... you also judge God Himself. If a ruler imposes less than death as a penalty for murder, the nation simply reaps the results of that judgment (we will continue to see iniquity increase in frequency as well as severity). Eventually, the ruler will answer to God. We suffer the consequences of a poor judgment made by man who has corrupted the law of God.

The way Bahnsen addressed this type of question is that we can have as much flexibility as the Bible allows. We cant just make up the ability to reduce the sentence just because we want to do so.

Hermonta

__________________
Hermonta Godwin
Christ The King PCA
Raleigh, NC

But it is hypothetical in as much as we don't have any of the details (at least I don't) to give this any real context. Was it premeditated? Was it done in self defence? Was it done to preserve someone else's life? I'm assuming from the majority of comments that you believe it was premediated. If it was premediated then there must surely be others who should partake of any judgement. For example, what circumstances and situation led to a 9yr old being capable of such an act?

Matthew

__________________
Matthew Glover
Reformed Presbyterian Church of Australia

Which laws are those? Unless by this you mean the ceremonial/Temple ordinances and laws that were abolished with the abrogation of the Levitical priesthood.

Defenitely

I am still sort of new to all of this, but I've been getting some questions like these from a liberal christian I know:

"What about turning the other cheek?"

Or things like

"Who has the right to cast the first stone?"

And then he went on to say they are determining peoples fate without giving them a chance to repent.

__________________
Levi Sorenson
St. Francis Reformed Anglican Church(APA)
Saint Cloud, Florida

"And have we now forgotten that powerful Friend? Or do we imagine we no longer need His assistance? I have lived a long time; and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth: that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings, that 'except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it.' I firmly believe this; and I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel." -Benjamin Franklin