What does biblical theonomy teach us about drug prohibition? We know what alcohol prohibition taught us (do not make illegal what God does not make illegal) Do not add or subtract from his word. But then again we have speed limits of course.

I think that certain things would have to be defined and modified for our culture, and the 21st century. For example, instead of someone's ox or donkey falling in a ditch, we would give an example of someone's car breaking down.

Since certain drugs (heroine, cocaine, etc) have wreaked so much havoc on individuals and on society, the law would address this somehow.

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Christopher Hinton
Northland, A Church Distributed;
Altamonte Springs, FL

Interesting question. I would say medical drug use (narcotics and anesthesia for pain/surgery are quite acceptable). I think the issue arises with psychedelic drugs (mind altering) as it relates to addiction as well as non-medical use.

I can not find anywhere in the scripture that bans the use of narcotics specifically. That which defiles the temple is of concern.... therefore, one's addiction to narcotics may be a spiritual issue (not of God's Spirit).

Galatians 5:19-21 has some good info. Paul gives a little list of sins and verse 21 mentions "drunkenness" as well as "revellings." I take "revellings" to also mean "carousing." Basically, I think this is the idea of being "out of control."

With psychedelic drug use, one is completely out of control. The addiction itself will lead a person to self destruction. The notion that a group of people are "œout of control"� has spiritual workings also.... along with individual depravity. Usually in these cases, groups that are carousing are probably under the influence of alcohol, sex, drugs or sometimes cultic rites and ceremonies (not very common in Western culture).

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Matt Daniel
Attending First Presbyterian Church, Las Vegas NV

but isn't the greek word for "sorcery" related to drug use?

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Jay Tuck
Harvest Bible Chapel
Niles, IL

"Let us know; let us press on to know the Lord;
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Hosea 6:3

"Yet I should not take it at all amiss, to be called a Calvinist, for distinction’s sake, though I utterly disclaim a dependence on CALVIN, or believing the doctrines which I hold, because he believed and taught them and cannot justly be charged with believing in everything just as he taught." Jonathan Edwards.

I would not look to "theonomy" to answer the question about the lawfulness of the use of drugs but rather the Biblical doctrine of Christian liberty. J.G. Vos' The Separated Life addresses the specific question of drug use by Christians very well, I think.

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Andrew Myers
Husband of Jessica, Father of Jackson, Katie and Samuel
Member, Presbyterian Reformed Church of Northern Virginia
Warrenton, VA USA
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"Let your Morning Thoughts, and your last Evening Thoughts, be what shall become of you to all Eternity." -- Matthew Poole

But Andrew, you can't answer what Christian Liberty is without having a proper view of "theonomy".

As an aside, all theonomists that I have read, do believe that drug use should be an issue of Christian liberty and not a government issue.

Hermonta

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Hermonta Godwin
Christ The King PCA
Raleigh, NC

[/quote] this I understand and agree. Bean there done that. I am talking about politicaly. Were the so called politicians make law after failed law with worse and worse culteral results. Another example In 1985 the crack epidemic appeared. Bush Sr in his infinite humanist antibiblical wisdom decided to declare "The war on drugs". It failed we lost, crack overtook america with a vengence. Now in any small town in america you can pick up your telephone and have crack delivered to your house. What is the bibles solution to this problem?

Since "theonomy" is unBiblical and Christian liberty is Biblical, I think the latter can provide a sound answer and the former has nothing to offer to the subject, imho.

this I understand and agree. Bean there done that. I am talking about politicaly. Were the so called politicians make law after failed law with worse and worse culteral results. Another example In 1985 the crack epidemic appeared. Bush Sr in his infinite humanist antibiblical wisdom decided to declare "The war on drugs". It failed we lost, crack overtook america with a vengence. Now in any small town in america you can pick up your telephone and have crack delivered to your house. What is the bibles solution to this problem? [/quote]

Politically speaking, I am very much opposed to the 'war on drugs.' That is because I believe it has done more damage to society in terms of curtailing civil liberties and increasing big government and creating a black market with its accompanying violence, etc., than the actual damage by individual abuse of drugs. That being said, I do not in any way condone the abuse of drugs and believe that laws which penalize intoxicated behavior of all sorts are quite appropriate and Biblical. The Biblical war against drugs, however, must be waged as a spiritual battle for the heart because it is not what goes into a man which defiles him but that which comes from the heart.

Well since I used the small case t, I do not see how you could find fault with what I said.

However since we are on the topic. Have you read, Dr. Lee's paper/book on the subject? http://www.dr-fnlee.org/docs4/atmlft/atmlft.pdf

If so, I would love to see your response to it.

Hermonta

Hermonta,

As you may recall, we've discussed theonomy quite a bit in the past. I have read Dr. Lee's writings on the subject as well as Bahnsen, Rushdoony, North, Gentry and many others. With all due respect to Dr. Lee, et al. (and I do have great respect for Dr. Lee), I have previously addressed why I believe theonomy to be both unBiblical and unConfessional. I don't really feel like covering the same ground again. My point in adding my comments to this thread is to steer the subject away from theonomy and towards Christian liberty since I believe that is where a Biblical perspective on drug use can be found. However, if theonomy is the subject at hand, then I would commend previous threads on that subject which I think left little unsaid.

God's solution is making someone a partaker of the New Covenant... the law and the Spirit within. This is at the individual level. The provisions given by God under the New Covenant along with an individual's will can thwart the addiction.

One of the responsibilities of government is to protect its citizens (from other nations as well as from its own citizens within the border). Government in itself is a highly corruptible institution. We have thrown out the Judgments (Civil Law of God) with the rest of the law and the Jews (and we are now reaping the result).

For example, we currently suffer through our government's taxation for others continued irresponsibility and open lasciviousness. We are paying for abortions. We support single mothers who pay no attention to the law of God (who actively fornicate with irresponsible God-hating men). We share the financial burden of children bearing children and support 30 year-old grandmothers who are enslaved to a welfare state. We live in a society where our government condones such rampant irresponsible behavior through active social programs and continued taxation of responsible Christian citizens. We are forced to pay for those who live a life of willful sin (this is theft).

Illegal use of drugs is just one more item to add to the camel's back. If drug use won't make you dependent on the government... it will definitely kill you (one less worry for the tax payer).

Our Government has the God-given responsibility to protect its citizens in terms of life, liberty and property. Look at what illegal narcotics does to the individual as well as the society.

Oh Dr. Lee is not a Theonomist either. That is why I brought him up. I also brought him up because he is basically one of the foremost Calvin scholars living today as well as a strict subscriptionist to the Westminster Confession (in all its phases). In addition I don't remember any discussion about the judicial laws addressing his writings.

I stand by the comment that you cant get to Biblical Liberty without understanding theonomy or Theonomy.

CT

Are you attempting to defend government keeping drug use illegal?

If so you cant use the hardships caused during time of drugs being illegal against making them legal any more than the disasterous time of prohibition could be used against making alcohol consumption legal.

CT

Exactly and if we cannot look to the bible for hard answers to hard questions, or just sign them off as an issue of personal pietism, how are we being the salt of the earth or any more refomed than a typical unrelevent apostate church.

If the bible is not clear it must take a libertarian, legalization stance

The use of psychedelic drugs goes back to ancient times when they were used in pagan rituals to promote a suggestible state of mind receptive to the influences of spirits. The modern person, whether he knows it or not, is doing the same thing. Speaking strictly from personal experience, after conversion, I found the desire to pursue these things dissipated.

Should they be illegal. For minors, yes, they're dangerous on many levels. For adults, I don't know. But I believe, though I'm stepping out on a limb and may be suspected of legalism, that a Christian shouldn't use these kinds of drugs, unless they're found to have some medical use, and in fact wouldn't have any reason to other than that.

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The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

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this is actually something i have thought about a fair bit over the past year or so... though i am not very familiar with theonomy, i think i'll just post my thoughts and i hope if there is anything unbiblical about them someone will point it out.

As i see it, the bible is silent regarding drug use, even for recreational purposes. While addiction is obviously a problem, that would apply to any thing and not specifically to drugs. As to whether the 'state' induced by the drugs is in itself sinful, i think the issue is if that state can be somehow be comparable to drunkedness. As Texas Aggie had stated, i think the issue is in the lost of self control.

If drugs are not something the bible condemns, then i don't think there is any duty for government to legislate against them. However, while authority should never try to bind mens consciences beyond the scriptures, i think there is room for them to regulate actions. Hence the government as a discretion to, based on the effect of drugs in society, exercise their own judgements as to if or not they should be legal.

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Mark
Independent baptist
Singapore

Prohibition/illegal drug use is the same thing to me. I really don't care if others want to dope it up.... as long as they do not disrupt society.

Our government has cracked down on alcohol consumption while driving (this is an example of government protecting other citizens). Drug use could be treated the same.

Don´t get me wrong, I am not a fan of psychedelic drug use. I equate drug use to defiling the temple more than alcohol usage based off the addiction power of most narcotics. Narcotics require more & more for the "high" each time thus leading to addiction. Naturally for some alcohol can be the precisely the same, but the addictive power has been physiologically proven to be much less. In addition, both are physically harmful; however, some narcotics are especially destructive on multiple human anatomical systems (neurological, adrenal, respiratory, vascular, even reproductive).

Drugs as opposed to alcohol are much more expensive now because of the prohibition. Those who are addicted to narcotics have a desire for more and more and will do just about anything to get there hands on it. Subsequently, this can lead to petty theft, armed robbery and even murder.

I do not care if people want to destroy themselves... as long as I do not have to subsidize their destructive behavior. I don't mind if they want to use drugs as long as other's property and lives are protected by the state.

The Judgments call for one to pay seven times the amount for theft. It also calls for death if one commits a murder. Theft and murder are typically associated with drug addiction. Imagine if God's judgments were actually enforced.

Drug use is a destructive behavior just as alcohol addiction. If drugs became legal... the price would come down considerably. Crime associated with drug trafficking would then cease, but now we have opened the door to allow individual destructive behavior by psychedelic drug use.

Food can also lead to destructive behavior. It's all about the addiction.

Do not be drunk with wine, wherein is excess...


I drink. I do not get drunk. If someone can take those drugs that are currently banned by law, and do so without becoming "drunk" by them--that is, being in a mind-altered state that precludes being filled with the Spirit--then I see no Biblical reason that they could not indulge, all things being equal.

Thou shalt have no other gods before Me... (and many others of the same and similar tenor)

If one can take currently illegal drugs, narcotics, etc, without becoming addicted, then I see no Biblical reason that they could not indulge. However, from what we see around us all the time, this seems nearly impossible. Addiction to a drug, I believe, is tantamount to having another god.

However there is another command:

Obey every ordinance of man, for the Lord's sake.

If the government is not requiring anything immoral or sinful of us in abstaining from "recreational" drugs, then we have an obligation to obey.

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Strangerpilgrim
Knoxville, TN
Mssry in closed country

"Judge not the Lord by feeble sense..."

1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

1Ti 3:11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
Tit 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
Tit 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;


Tit 2:2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.

Tit 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

Tit 2:6 Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.

1Pe 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

1Pe 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:


There sure is a lot to be said about being sober minded. Clear Thinking that is. I am well knowledged that illegal drugs don't leave a human very sober minded. I know prescription drugs that don't leave one sober minded also. That is why a doctors care should be involved when using these. I also believe that is why we need to be very careful when we imbibe. Scriptures give many warnings against it also.

I still love a good stiff drink though. You know the verse....give strong drink to the old man. I am getting old.

I guess my point is...Theonomy or not, God requires us to be sober minded and it should be counted as sin to be otherwise. Now draw the line and show me where it is for everyone. Can a Governing authority actually do this with a law of liberty and personal conscience or does it just make it all illegal.

[Edited on 6-15-2005 by puritancovenanter]

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R. Martin Snyder
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Actually, what we learned from Prohibition is that laws do not change the heart of men. In other words, if man wants to sin (and drinking to excess is a sin) he will do so, with or without the Volstead Act, the Constitution of the United States, and Elliott Ness.

In other words, it is more effective to properly evangelize than to legislate. Unbelievers will simply never see it the way God and believers see the world, including alcohol, drugs, speeds limits, and, yes, abortion. Pagans have sacrificed their babies from time immemorial. In our day pagans sacrifice their babies to their gods of pleasure and sensuality.

Dogs bark because they are dogs. Cats meow because they are cats. Sinners sin because they are sinners. A government's laws will never make a dog meow or a cat bark or a sinner a saint. Only God can do that.

In another thread Draught Horse quoted Doug Wilson: Right on point! I would add, however, that the issues will be settled not only in the Pulpit and at the Table, but primarily in the prayer closet. "If my people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land. (2 Chronicles 7:14)"

Draught Horse followed Wilson's comment with: