A lot of people think that the Judicial Laws of the scriptures are too strict, unbending, to harsh, to rigid, and dare I say unreasonable... They think that such laws are unworkable and does not help society..

Let us consider the following....

There is one country in the world that is labeled the Most:

Happiest Country
Safest Country
Lowest Crime Country
Cleanest Country
Lowest form of Corruption in Government

And still a very

Rich Country
Beautiful Country


Why...

They have some of the most strictest laws, even more strict then the judicial laws of the scriptures... Even Gum is banned....

Their leaders are paid a salary up and above a million dollars which lowers bribery and corruption and so the people actually TRUST their leaders.....

Welcome to Singapore.... Which is more draconian then the laws of scripture but also shows what can work in terms of government, especially when the laws come from God....

Any doubt left?

__________________
Michael Daniels
Reformed, RPCNA
Denton, Maryland

[i][b]As For Me And My House, We Will Serve The Lord[/i][/b]

[SIZE="1"][I][FONT="Century Gothic"]Unum Deum in Trinitate: Pater, Filius, et Spiritus Sanctus [RIGHT]Sola scriptura - Sola gratia - Sola fide - Solus Christus - Soli Deo gloria - Solum psalterium - Lex talionis[/RIGHT][/FONT][/I][/SIZE]

I still wouldn't want to live there. Those countries have no life or zest. Limited government where the Church has its own sphere, Civil Government has its own sphere and the family has its own sphere is the best and humans prosper therein in terms of economy, craft, art, literature etc

When a country reaches to the point whereby chewing gum is outlawed the citizens become overly dependent upon cultural norms to support proper behavior. I bet if one of those singaporians is to live in Las Vegas or San Francisco all their morality will be thrown out the window.

The division of government as found in scripture whereby each sphere rules its own domain puts the onus on the citizens to practice responsibility in lieu of minimal restrictions. Because of this, when you see a righteous man, he is indeed righteous and when you see an unrighteous man he is indeed unrighteous.

__________________
~Keon Garraway~ Brooklyn, NY Member of Franklin Square OPC

Love for God demonstrated by the love for our children in giving them a God centered education is the only hope for our country. by David Morrow
Pslam 71:20 [Thou], which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth.

Michael, so when are you leaving for Singapore?

__________________
Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?
Visit my BLOG Theology for the Rest of Us

like never..

A christian can only be at peace under God's law, not an imitation or a mimicry of it.

But I was not advocating Singaporean Laws, but Biblical laws from the scripture and show that they can work by example of the overly strict Singaporean Laws... The civil law bound within the sphere of civil government and not mixed with Family or Church Law...

I was just showing where such strict laws can be helpful but the civil law of the scriptures is less strict and can be even more helpful and beneficial because coming from God and held in check of the sphere of authority..... I am just saying that the Civil law of the scripture is workable and is tenable and can benefit society...

By the way, you mentioned they have no life or zest... If they are the most happiest country then they must have life and zest...

Happy is overrated.

I know I wouldn't be happy there. No gum.

__________________
R.Vic Bottomly
Providence Reformed Baptist Church, Tacoma, WA

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

By What Standard are they the happiest people?

__________________
Chris
Member at Grace Community Baptist Church, Mandeville, LA

Beware of a religion without holdfasts. But if I get a grip upon a doctrine they call me a bigot. Let them do so. Bigotry is a hateful thing, and yet that which is now abused as bigotry is a great virtue, and greatly needed in these frivolous times. I have been inclined lately to start a new denomination, and call it "the Church of the Bigoted." Spurgeon

Couldn't resist.





Seriously, that is a good question, Chris. Wealth/happiness isn't necessarily valued (arg, wrong word) in monetary terms. But these are interesting stats.

__________________
J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

Are homosexuals killed? Are disobedient disrespectful Children killed? Are adulterers killed? etc. etc. Is the death penalty something God wants us to advocate as he did in the Mosaic? Or has he brought in a longsuffering that will be used to draw his elect in this part of the Covenant of Grace?

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

(2Pe 3:15) And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

__________________

(Norseman Moderator)

R. Martin Snyder
1689er
Harmony Baptist Church (Member)
PuritanCovenanter MSN Blog
PuritanCovenanter's MySpace Page

"Our object should not be to have scripture on our side but to be on the side of scripture; and however dear any sentiment may have become by being long entertained, so soon as it is seen to be contrary to the Bible, we must be prepared to abandon it without hesitation."
William Symington

Click to get:Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

One of the key republican tenets--in theory anyway--is anti-sodomy. Suppose it actually happens. How will you prosecute? If so, what makes that punishment just to both victim and criminal? Why? I am not being ornery. These are legit legal and ethical questions.

I agree with your verses. Can we apply them to rebut the death penalty in murder cases? Why not?

EDIT: I understand I have been really defensive lately. But I believe I was justified in doing so. I believe I am even more justified now. Perhaps Messrs Cunningham and Winzer in other theonomy threads offered legit criticisms of theonomy. Fair enough. I now posit equally legit questions to non-theonomists asking them to justify their penal sanctions (or lack of justice, as the case may be) to the victim.

As to adultery: Country western singer Sara Evans husband cheated on her with hundreds of women. The talk-show host said he ought to be punished. Perceptive. How should he? Maybe just slap himon the wrist and let him go.

Was the law for the rebellious youth horrible and unfair in God's day, er the Hebrews' day? Shock treatment doesn't work with God's law.

The states job is to suppress evil...... Last I check Homosexuality is still evil and the punish was death, the same with Adultery.... I have no trouble seeing the death penalty for them...

As for the children clause, that always seems to be brought out for SHOCK effect.... But the passage in questioned was not just a disobedient child, he was disobedient because of gluttony and Drunkenness and would after all efforts of the parents be brought to the magistrate... It was a last resort and it was a serious thing.... Not a 8 year old boy who is still learning obediences and is bad...........

Yes, the gospel has brought longsuffering and forgiveness for those repentant BUT.... that does not mean the consequence is removed which is suppose to be punished by the state if brought to a court of the land....

Jacob,
I was asking a sincere question. I don't know the answer. I was not doing anything for shock value either. I am just not convinced that Theonomy has the right answer either.

And btw Thunaer, I don't remember reading the specifics about the child or young man who was a drunkard, glutton, etc. Can you show me that reference? It has been a while since I read it.

Have you guys seen a Caning? It is really something. You can view one on You Tube.

Nevermind Thunaer.... I found it.

I would have surely been put to death before I had a chance to repent.

Thank you God.

My treasure of a wife-the Orchid Lady-is a native Sinaporean and she will tell you without batting an eye that the outsider's perspective that you relate is accurate as far as it goes, but that it is not the whole picture. Having been there I tend to agree with that the picture you relate is there, but the draconianness you mention is also applied to other aspects of life besides the criminal courts.
Singapore is not a Christian country, but a Confucian one and anybody who is anywhere near the orbit of Christian Reconstruction will be constantly saying "So near...and yet so far..." in exasperation. Culturally the Christians are more alive than in North America and they have a significant influence on the tone of the place, and yet they are culturally if not politically forbidden from attempting to exercise that influence explicitly in the political realm. For someone as familiar with CR as I am, the result is in some ways the reverse image of Bahnsen's Theonomy.

__________________
In Christ's love and service

Mr. Tim Cunningham, Dip. CS (Regent College)
Member, First Baptist Church
Vancouver, BC

------------
"The Reformation was a time when men went blind, staggering drunk because they had discovered, in the dusty basement of late medievalism, a whole cellar of 1500-year-old, 200 proof grace—a bottle after bottle of pure distillate of Scripture, one sip of which would convince anyone that God saves us single-handedly. The word of the gospel—after all these centuries of trying to lift yourself into heaven by worrying about the perfection of your own bootstraps—suddenly turned out to be a flat announcement that the saved were home-free before they started. Grace was to be drunk neat: no water, no ice, and certainly no ginger ale." – Robert Farrar Capon

I don't think he was claiming that Singapore was a Christian country. He was simply speaking of the strictness of their laws.

I am amazed at how pro-theonomy posts are really twisted sometimes.

EDIT: I am not saying that the pro-theonomists are twisted, but rather how anti-theonomists twist and misinterpret their posts. Also note I said SOMETIMES....not always.

__________________
Ryan Barnhart - Pastor of OGBC
Husband to a beautiful wife, Father to two beautiful girls
"But by the grace of God I am what I am." I Corinthians 15:10

"I confess to you, that if I can but live and die serving the Lord Jesus, it will make no difference to me whether I am eaten by Cannibals or by worms. And in the Great Day my Resurrection body will rise as fair as yours in the likeness of our risen Redeemer." - John Paton

It goes both ways. I have had some take what I said way past and add to my thoughts things that were never intended by my comments from the Pro side. LOL

In Puritan New England this law was upheld, but no-one was executed under it. It seems to have had its intended sobering effect.

__________________
Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

It is time to stop asking By What Standard?, and time to start saying By This Standard