It seems to me the Bible does not forbid slavery. Of course stealing men to sell them as slaves is wrong. So would buying those slaves be wrong?
What about when a country conquers another country and makes slaves of the captors? Then what if they were to sell them?

And lastly what of those who end up in debt and are unable to repay, should they be allowed to be slaves to work off the debt.
Could these slaves be sold for the amount owed until they work that off for someone else?


1 Cor 7:20 Let each one remain in the same calling in which he was called. 21 Were you called while a slave? Do not be concerned about it; but if you can be made free, rather use it. NKJV

1 Tim 1:10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine NKJV

Philem 12-20
2 And I have sent him back to you in person, that is, sending my very heart, 13 whom I wished to keep with me, that in your behalf he might minister to me in my imprisonment for the gospel; 14 but without your consent I did not want to do anything, that your goodness should not be as it were by compulsion, but of your own free will. 15 For perhaps he was for this reason parted from you for a while, that you should have him back forever, 16 no longer as a slave, but more than a slave, a beloved brother, especially to me, but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord. 17 If then you regard me a partner, accept him as you would me. 18 But if he has wronged you in any way, or owes you anything, charge that to my account; 19 I, Paul, am writing this with my own hand, I will repay it (lest I should mention to you that you owe to me even your own self as well). 20 Yes, brother, let me benefit from you in the Lord; refresh my heart in Christ.
NASB
Paul sends a slave back to his owner, asks for the release of the slave who had runaway and then become a Christian.

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DonP

In all cases. God never intended man to be enslaved. I believe God allowed men to be enslaved because of their own wickedness but also to spiritually show our own enslavement to sin and Christ freeing us from that freedom.

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sarah
WI
OPC
My Pastor's Sermons: Mark Jenkins...he's awesome!!!

Do you have some Scriptures that you are drawing this from?

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Ben Franks

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"Remember the speeches we have spoken so often over our mead, when we raised boast on the bench, heroes in the hall, about hard fighting. Now may the man who is bold prove that he is."-Aelfwine at the Battle of Maldon

Asked before; never answered:

Would Paul have said to an unrepentant sinner, "Philemon our dearly beloved, and fellowlabourer"?

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Glenn Ferrell
Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Boise, Idaho

http://sovereignredeemer.org

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Nec Tamen Consumebatur


The duty of magistrates...extends to both tables of the law, ... those laws are absurd which disregard the rights of God, and consult only for men. - Calvin, Institutes, IV:20:9

I'm not going to look for the Scriptures because you are familiar with them. Let's start with the Israelites being enslaved. God judged Egypt for enslaving His children. This means God is giving us a clue that He doesn't agree that slavery is right. Then we go to the verses where a Jew could own a slave. If it were another Jew he owned, God demanded that he be set free after seven years of service. This means God is giving us a clue that slavery isn't right. If the slave wasn't a Jew, then they could keep them as slaves showing God's disregard for those outside of His nation which is a sign of judgement. Slavery is never shown in a positive light. Paul encouraged Philemon to set Onesimus free. When the NT tells slaves to obey their masters, this isn't giving the masters permission to own people. It is only instructing slaves how to behave according to Christian behavior. We are not to be slaves of man but of Christ. Over and over again you see God setting His people free or commanding His people to set their brethren free. Again, I believe He used this to show our condition spiritually and His redemption. Those who are not His own are left in slavery both physically (mostly in the OT) and spiritually.

I believe so.

I think it would be lawful.

I believe so.

The bible nowhere forbids slavery just men stealing.

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Greg Fox
Westminster Presbyterian Church (WPCUS)
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http://puritanreprints.com

Sarah,
What about Glenn's question?

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Anna
Wife of Tim/Marrow Man
Louisville, KY
Member of Midlane Park Presbyterian (Associate Reformed Presbyterian)

I think it's also worth pointing out that there are a few different actions covered by the term "slavery", some of which are explicitly forbidden in Scriptures, others of which are a bit unclear. For example, beating slaves is never as far as I know permitted--in fact, if I remember correctly "an eye for an eye" was the punishment if a slave was beaten and lost the use of one of his members. However, owning servants in and of itself was not explicitly forbidden.

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Jonathan
Audio Engineer
Reformed Anabaptist
Ohio

Moroni's magical glasses of proper interpretation:

Well now here is what God says:

1 Peter 2:18 Servants, be submissive to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the harsh. NKJV

Titus 2:9 Exhort bondservants to be obedient to their own masters, to be well pleasing in all things, not answering back, 10 not pilfering, but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things. NKJV

1 Tim 6:1 Let as many bondservants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and His doctrine may not be blasphemed. 2 And those who have believing masters, let them not despise them because they are brethren, but rather serve them because those who are benefited are believers and beloved. Teach and exhort these things. NKJV

Col 3:22 Bondservants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in sincerity of heart, fearing God. 23 And whatever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and not to men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for you serve the Lord Christ. 25 But he who does wrong will be repaid for what he has done, and there is no partiality. NKJV

Col 4:1 Masters, give your bondservants what is just and fair, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven. NKJV

Eph 6:5 Bondservants, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ; 6 not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, 7 with goodwill doing service, as to the Lord, a
8 knowing that whatever good anyone does, he will receive the same from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free.
9 And you, masters, do the same things to them, giving up threatening, knowing that your own Master also is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him. NKJV

God tells masters to be fair but not to set them free because it is wrong.

I did answer this. But here is the book which shows Paul encouraging Philemon to set Onesimus free.

Philemon 1

4 I thank my God always when I remember you in my prayers, 5 because I hear of your love and of the faith that you have toward the Lord Jesus and for all the saints, 6and I pray that the sharing of your faith may become effective for the full knowledge of every good thing that is in us for the sake of Christ. 7For I have derived much joy and comfort from your love, my brother, because the hearts of the saints have been refreshed through you.

8 Accordingly, though I am bold enough in Christ to command you to do what is required, 9 yet for love’s sake I prefer to appeal to you—I, Paul, an old man and now a prisoner also for Christ Jesus— 10I appeal to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I became in my imprisonment. 11(Formerly he was useless to you, but now he is indeed useful to you and to me.) 12I am sending him back to you, sending my very heart. 13I would have been glad to keep him with me, in order that he might serve me on your behalf during my imprisonment for the gospel, 14but I preferred to do nothing without your consent in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion but of your own accord. 15For this perhaps is why he was parted from you for a while, that you might have him back forever, 16 no longer as a slave but more than a slave, as a beloved brother—especially to me, but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord.
17So if you consider me your partner, receive him as you would receive me. 18If he has wronged you at all, or owes you anything, charge that to my account. 19 I, Paul, write this with my own hand: I will repay it—to say nothing of your owing me even your own self. 20Yes, brother, I want some benefit from you in the Lord. Refresh my heart in Christ.

21 Confident of your obedience, I write to you, knowing that you will do even more than I say. 22At the same time, prepare a guest room for me, for I am hoping that through your prayers I will be graciously given to you.

How would Philemon receive Paul? As a slave or a brother? Paul is being gentle in his command but it is a command to set him free. Paul is also confident that he will do more than what Paul asks.

Sarah, where did Paul call Onesimus's continued enslavement by Philemon a sin? He made an appeal, yes, but if the case were as clear as you seem to imply that it is, there was a much easier way for Paul to confront the situation. He'd have said "it's contrary to God's Law. Release him."

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Todd K. Pedlar
member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA
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"As God did not at first choose you because you were high, He will not now forsake you because you are low."
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Lev 25:45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that [are] with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.
Lev 25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit [them for] a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

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Psa 55:16 As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me.
Psa 55:17 Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud: and he shall hear my voice.
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Sarah,
So is Philemon an unrepentant sinner--yes or no? If the text alone were crystal-clear, we wouldn't be in the discussion.

It seems to me that Paul is asking for Onesimus's service as a servant. Besides, Philemon could still treat Onesimus as both a slave and brother in Christ.

He didn't out right. He called him to set him free. Why would Paul command that Philemon set Onesimus free if there was nothing wrong with owning slaves? Paul would have only sent Onesimus back to Philemon and told him to submit to Philemon and then told Philemon to not be harsh on Onesimus if he didn't think Onesimus should be set free.

Where did he call him to set Onesimus free?

So given that paul did NOT call it sin, and that God's law does NOT call it sin, why do you maintain that Scripture says it is sin?

Who says he was an unrepentant sinner? We do things (baptism for example) which is always being called into question....which is right paedo or credo? I wouldn't call either one an unrepentant sinner would you? Paul is gently showing what God has always wanted for mankind. Mankind was made in the image of God and should not be enslaved. Own an animal...that's what God made them for.

BTW, Paul's letter to Philemon quite clearly is written in acceptance of Philemon's rightful ownership of his slave Onesimus. There is nothing to indicate that Paul thinks Onesimus is illegitimately in Philemon's hands. YES, he appeals to Philemon to grant him his freedom, but he does not command it, nor does he ever call into question the practice.

If Philemon had not released Onesimus (which tradition says he did) would he have been an unrepentant sinner? You seem to be arguing for this by stating that the Bible calls slavery sin, and that Paul is commanding Philemon to release Onesimus. If slavery is a sin, and if Philemon had persisted in it, you would argue that he was an unrepentant sinner... wouldn't you? It's what your words are saying (perhaps not what you're meaning by them).

Why was God always setting His people free and commanding that His people set others free? Why!? If there is nothing wrong with being a slave, why would He set them free and call others to set them free? Why not leave them in bondage? Part of His judgement on His people was sending them into Babylon as slaves. They were no longer a free people in their own land. Slavery equals judgement.

Hmmm...

(NIV) Exo 21:20 If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished,
Exo 21:21 but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.

My own answer to this question is that while slavery is not explicitly stated to be immoral in scripture, it has often been associated with immoral practices in history:

- kidnapping
- racism
- abusive treatment
- splitting up of families

I suppose someone could argue that slavery (like monarchy), was well-suited to the political climate of Biblical times, where people congregated together under a local strongman or whatever, and if a man knew what was good for him, he would treat his slaves well.

But I am quite happy to live in an age and an area of the world where slavery -- just like monarchy, feudalism, etc. are forbidden by law. I say "good riddance".

(Hey, where's a little "American Flag" smiley when you need one?)

__________________
AV
Baptist
VA

Accordingly, though I am bold enough in Christ to command you to do what is required, 9 yet for love’s sake I prefer to appeal to you—.....So if you consider me your partner, receive him as you would receive me..... Confident of your obedience, I write to you, knowing that you will do even more than I say.

What's going on here, I believe, is that you are applying narrative portions of Scripture to an attempt to draw a precept from them. This isn't good exegesis.

The mere fact that God sent His people to Babylon as slaves does not say ANYTHING good or bad about the practice of slavery. God uses ALL SORTS of things for judgment - this being one of them. Is water evil? Of course not... yet He used water to judge the world, and to judge Pharoah and his army.

The same God who sent His people into captivity gave laws for the rightful practice of slavery by those very people. Either God is speaking out of both sides of His mouth, or He is not.

I think this discussion has lost its usefulness.

Confident of your obedience, I write to you, knowing that you will do even more than I say.

Paul knew he would do what was right and so he wasn't an unrepentant sinner.

Very good.

How long had Philemon owned Onesimus?

We don't know.

Given that Paul does not clearly say "slavery is sin" and given that the Bible nowhere proclaims this, I think we have to err on the side of reason and say that what is likely at hand here is that Onesimus had been owned for a very long time and what could have been commanded was the release according to the Law of God.

Sarah,

You're all over the place. You may not call sin what God has not called sin. One cannot be holier than God. So, yes, there are instances in which slaveowners are sinful for how they treat a slave (i.e. less than a person made in the image of God). But you may not call all forms of slavery without exception sinful. Why did God tell Pharaoh to let his people go? "That they may worship me."

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
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It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

Sarah, you can have the last word if you want it. I think you're stretching Scripture out of shape in order to prove what you believe to be true. You have yet to deal with the fact that the Law prescribes slavery and its practice according to God's principles of justice. I haven't heard you interact with that at all. If you'd like to, then shoot. I'll wait till I see another post by you in this thread, and then I'm shutting it down. It's clear the conversation has been exhausted.

Ok, let's do a turn around. Why don't we want to be slaves? Why didn't God show that being a slave to mankind was desirous? Why did He use it as judgement instead of blessing? God was always setting His children free not because slavery was a good and desirous thing but because it showed judgement.

How could Paul have been telling him it was wrong when he told everyone else it was OK

Well now here is what God says:

1 Peter 2:18 Servants, be submissive to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the harsh. NKJV

Titus 2:9 Exhort bondservants to be obedient to their own masters, to be well pleasing in all things, not answering back, 10 not pilfering, but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things. NKJV

1 Tim 6:1 Let as many bondservants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and His doctrine may not be blasphemed. 2 And those who have believing masters, let them not despise them because they are brethren, but rather serve them because those who are benefited are believers and beloved. Teach and exhort these things. NKJV

Col 3:22 Bondservants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh, not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but in sincerity of heart, fearing God. 23 And whatever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and not to men, 24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for you serve the Lord Christ. 25 But he who does wrong will be repaid for what he has done, and there is no partiality. NKJV

Col 4:1 Masters, give your bondservants what is just and fair, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven. NKJV

Eph 6:5 Bondservants, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in sincerity of heart, as to Christ; 6 not with eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as bondservants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart, 7 with goodwill doing service, as to the Lord, a
8 knowing that whatever good anyone does, he will receive the same from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free.
9 And you, masters, do the same things to them, giving up threatening, knowing that your own Master also is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him. NKJV

God tells masters to be fair but not to set them free because it is wrong.

Or do these verse not count as much as Philemon?

The reason he asked Philemon was because it was not wrong.

He could command him as one in authority and because no doubt Philemon owed Paul.

Your emboldening doesn't change the meaning of the text. This is what Paul is saying:

"Accordingly, though I am bold enough in Christ to command you to [receive him as you would receive me], yet for love's sake I'm just going to appeal to you to do so."

In other words, I'm not gonna use my apostolic authority to harshly command you to treat Onesimus right on his return; rather, I'm going to appeal to you that you'd do so out of a gracious response to my plea.

Sarah please explain the verses I quoted? Why avoid them?

If it was wrong Paul could not have told them to treat slaves well, he would have had to say release them it is wrong

I did. Go back and read carefully what I said in each of my post. You will find my answer.

Sarah, the burden of proof is upon you to show that God has called all slavery without exception sinful. Until you do so, emotional appeals, etc. do not lay the groundwork you're wanting them to do.

Nobody said slavery was desirable, Sarah, but nobody every argued that desirability of an outcome has anything to do with its Biblical legitimacy.

You did not give the meaning of the verses in Col 4 and Eph 6 where masters are told to treat their slaves well.

You are not interpreting scripture. Please see this for your sake.
Its not about slavery it is about your ability to properly handle the word of God that you need to consider this

Thread closed.

This thread is reopened, as we think it can be a productive thread.

However, no more emotional appeals as to why *you think* slavery is wrong. You must prove your point with Scripture, and not by shotgun approach. So, simply alluding to the fact that a nation is judged for enslaving God's chosen nation is not going to cut it, since that's a special case, and not something from which to build a doctrine/commandment. So what needs to happen:

1. If you think that all slavery without exception is sinful, you must provide a text of Scripture from which such a universal condemnation thereof can be deduced.

2. You must check it against other Scriptures that may be seen as conflicting against your assertion, and show how the Analogy of Scripture teaches otherwise.

Posts not answering the question or diverting attention will simply be deleted.

Moving to the "Law of God" forum

While slavery isn't generally desirable, making a strong case for its sinfulness via Scripture just isn't possible. If we bear in mind the differences between biblical slavery and the ungodly slavery of early American history, biblical slavery is much more palatable though. IMO--and no offense intended to my ancestors who held slaves--whips should be reserved for livestock and masochists.

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