Does The Fifth Commandment (Thou shall Not Kill) prohibit an Christian's becomeing involved in militarey service? i.e. is pacifism the Christian's only option when it comes to war how does this commandment relate to Christ's teaching in The Sermon on The Mount about loveing one's enemies and turning the other cheek?

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Aaron
Independent Baptist
Holland MI

6th Commandment, Brother.

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I believe that the proper rendering of the 6th commandment is "You shall not murder." That is the way it is presented in the ESV. I don't consider killing an enemy combatant murder.

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Angela Asano
Edwardsville, IL
Member, Center Grove Presbyterian Church - PCA

"History never repeats itself, but it rhymes." - Mark Twain

The 5th RC Commandment is Thou Shalt Not Kill. Growing up RC does a number on your mind since they don't use the same numbering and they delete the Second Commandment for obvious reasons.

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Norm
IA PCA

In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will. Ephesians 1:4-5

Rom 12:18-21
18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. 20 Therefore

"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head."

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
NKJV

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DonP

No, as the Westminster Larger Catechism plainly summarizes the Bible's testimony,

The civil magistrate does not bear the sword in vain (Romans 13). As I have finally learned, there is a proper distinction to be made between an individual exacting personal vengeance and a person acting as a representative of the civil magistrate dispensing public justice or waging lawful war.

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Bryan Peters
Providence Reformed Church (URCNA)
Des Moines, Iowa

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Soldiers were told by the greatest of the prophets to be content with their wages, not to leave the military. In other words, they were to be prepared to fight, but to fight in a just manner.

The Centurion was praised by Christ, and he was never told to quit the service, unlike the woman caught in adultery, who was told not to do it again.

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Tim Vaughan
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian, OPC,
Santa Maria
California

Governments will be held accountable to the law of God as well. If leaders lie and send troops into battle unjustly they will be judged by God for thier crimes. The government is to be a minister of 'good' and not evil. They will answer to God just as you and I will.

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James Farley
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The 6th commandment is properly rendered, as noted above, "Thou shalt not murder." Otherwise, if it in fact did preclude military service, we would have two of God's commands coming into conflict in many places in the Old Testament where God commands such and such a person to destroy such and such an army. We know, though, that God's commandments never come into conflict, and so this simply cannot be the case.

Whether or not there is a change under the New Covenant is still unresolved, but that's as far as we can go for now.

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Jonathan
Audio Engineer
Reformed Anabaptist
Ohio

Moroni's magical glasses of proper interpretation:

Yea but

Don't you think soldiers were used for guards and protecting the citizens etc. should there be an unholy war they have a conscience they could leave.

And
Don't you think since God is not no lnger dealing with a nation as He did with Israel and He is saving people out of all nations that He will not be wanting one nation to go conquer another nation as He did with Israel.

Then there will not be any more holy wars.

Now the question comes down to self defense.
Do we kill to defend ourselves or do we
Rom 12:18-21
18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. 20 Therefore
"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head."

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. NKJV

And is there a dif with personal defense and national ?

No, if you think that you don't know the first thing about the Roman military.

Rome wasn't Israel. You could look it up on a map if you try Google.

Well I do know that the Romans used to do these things and he told them not to do that so what do you supposed happened to a soldier in the Roman Army when He became a Christian and could no longer do that, and may even have been under orders to do it?

Luke 3:14 And soldiers also asked him, saying, And we, what must we do? And he said unto them, Extort from no man by violence, neither accuse (any one) wrongfully; and be content with your wages ASV

I would consider an offensive war to be taking what someone else has by violence. What am I missing?

At one point he says 1 Cor 7:20 Let each one remain in the same calling in which he was called.
But then he goes on to say
21 Were you called while a slave? Do not be concerned about it; but if you can be made free, rather use it. NKJV

I would say the same for a soldier.

Also staying where we were called is different than choosing a calling based on our knowledge of scripture. Just as one would not take a job where he had to work on the Lord's day.

And if he was called in that job he would soon desire to change.

And I don't think Rome had any holy wars for God. That was done with end of the Israel.

No one can respond to words just strung together. Please put some effort into writing something clear.


Yes, well one of those professions the Church has always allowed to work on Sundays is the military, so you couldn't have picked a worse example to prove the point (I think) you are trying to make.

Its a matter of conscience. I would encourage people Rom 12:18-21
18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. 20 Therefore

"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head."

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
NKJV

I've corrected the title to Sixth commandment and deleted off topic posts; don't pursue the numbering question. If someone wants to discuss why the Reformed faith numbers the commandments the way they do, open another thread on the topic.

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The systematic biblical context reformed theology gives us is helpful in understanding God on this.

God frequently commanded Israel to go to war against neighbors that threatened them. God did so repeatedly, even telling them to kill not only the soldiers, but in some cases down to the animals in the field. This is hard for some to accept, but when Israel did not obey fully, their disobedience led to more death, destruction and instability over the long run.

There are also biblical principles for "just war," and even mercy within war, but since that is not the direct question addressed in this thread, suffice it to say,

the sixth commandment does not prohibit killing in war.

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Scott
PCA
North Carolina


"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)"
Hebrews 10:23

Short answer, 'no'.

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Edward
Deacon
PCA
Texas

If I can't avenge myself may I defend a woman being raped or a child being murdered? Or do I give the offender a biscuit and a flower?

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Richard H. King
Providence PCA
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No, the 6th commandment does no such thing. It prohibits murder. The Kingdom of God, under the Old Covenant, was a physical kingdom and therefore routinely used physical warfare to accomplish its goals, frequently as a result of a direct command from God.

Under the New Covenant, the Kingdom is now "not of this world". If the mods give permission, I'll continue on that thread, but if not, the confessional view is that Christians may participate in a "just war", whatever that may be.

I would say that if there is such a thing as a just war, it's not being fought in any country I know of today. Modern warfare tactics are nothing like "just".

I once heard someone say that killing in the Bible is divided into judgemental where God takes life such as in the case of using the Israelites to kill surroundng nations for their sin, judicial where God gives the state the right to pick up the sword, and murder which is one man willfully taking the life of another. This would not include just war as the Larger Catechism specifies.

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Linda
Member Assembly of Christians
Displaced Presbyterian
Toledo, OH

This is another another reason man is not left to "imagine" these precepts. It is necessary to have a biblical systematic theology of all of Scripture to inform this.

There is also a biblical basis in your third category for self-defense, so even that category is not unqualified.

Is that what that verse says to you?

I just offer the verse. These are not the only ones in the Bible and you have to read them all to know for sure. Here is another command that takes faith to live by. Theonomist take special note in the words, it has been said but I say, as if there has been an abrogation of the OT laws and a new obedience principle established.
Matt 5:48 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. NKJV

So I suggest you go to God and ask the Spirit to guide you and give you the desires that make you more like Christ.

As for my conscience so far on the issue it was posted above earlier. But I wouldn't go by me, I am prone to meekly change as God convicts me from is word.

Doesn't Romans 13 address the role of a soldier and God's part in it?

and by the way,
You still are quoting verses about defending one's self.
So you have yet to address my issue.
I can't find any scriptures that say I am forbidden to use violence or even killing to stop an attack on an elderly person, a woman being raped, a child being abducted. I can turn the other cheek. I am not going to stand and watch a woman being slapped. It just won't happen.

If my enemy that I am supposed to love is hijacking my plane I will smash his head with a fireextinguisher and I will be doing the most loving thing for him that I can do in the situation.

If I saw a terrorist planting an IED beside a road and I could trigger the bomb before he got away from it I would do so with no regrets.

But it doesn't say I have to decide as a Christian to be a soldier.

Luke 9:60 Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and preach the kingdom of God." NKJV

What does this verse mean?

I suggest it means something similar to

Luke 18:21 And he said, "All these things I have kept from my youth."

22 So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." NKJV

No one is saying you must be a soldier or defender. I don't think there is a scripture that says that. But there is scripture that says SOME are to do so.
We cannot assume a Christian cannot justify engaging in war or subduing someone through violence.


Jesus was capable of speaking to an individual without it being a command for all of us.
That is why we don't all have to rub mud on our eyes.
We are not all commanded to go find a donkey that has been tied up.
He said the words you quote and yet to another he said sell one of your coats and buy a sword.

You mention vengence is the Lords
and I am saying that Romans 13:4 says
...for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.



Peace is a wonderful, beautiful optimal thing. Seek it.
But it may be as illusive as sinlessness in this time.

My argument isn't against the state being able to carry out war policy or execute criminals through Capital Punishment. It's more around the idea that should an Christan be involved in war and how that relates to the Sermon on The Mount the state has all duty to carry the sword I just don't know if the Christan has to "help" the state carry that sword.

Are you asking if there are different standards of morality for Christians and non-believers? The answer is no.

One quick comment--

If it's wrong for you to do something, is it right to do it on the behalf of someone else?

Note that I'm not fully convinced either way insofar as the self defense issue goes. I can see where both sides comes from, but I'm still analyzing both positions.

Excellent question. Let me add a further extrapolation on to it.

If its wrong for you to do something, is it OK to let someone else do it for you or fund someone else who is doing it for you?

I think the idea is that there are commands that are only for Christians, and this is certainly the case--take the sacraments for example. Israel likewise had a set of commands that were only for those under the Old Covenant--the ceremonial laws.

Don,

Are you a pacifist?

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Jon Peters
Member, Reformation Fellowship (OPC) (Roseville, CA)
Folsom, CA

I am a Rom 12:18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. 20 Therefore
"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head."

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. NKJV

What does that make me?

From an earlier post referring to an even earlier post

Matt 5:48 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41 And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. NKJV

So I suggest you go to God and ask the Spirit to guide you and give you the desires that make you more like Christ and to tell you what to do in those spontaneous moments. I also pray I will not have to be in a situation where I would have to decide. That is what I do.

As for my conscience so far on the issue it was posted above earlier. But I wouldn't go by me, I am prone to meekly change as God convicts me from His word.

Which is another reason, I think, why the position that Christians should not be soldiers/engage in warfare/take part in government depends upon the command being a covenant-specific command as commented above. I'm not yet completely convinced that this is the case.

how about Luke 9:60

60 Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and preach the kingdom of God."
NKJV

Where do you get the idea that anyone is exempted from the First and Second Commandments?

I don't think that's what I was saying. Can you explain, please?

The First and Second Commandments teach that everyone has the obligation to worship the true God in the manner that He prescribes (see Q&A's 94-96 of the Heidelberg Catechism). Hence, unbelievers cannot be excused for their failure to receive the sacraments in true faith without denying the demands of the First and Second Commandments upon them.

And yet unbelievers are categorically forbidden from receiving the Lord's Supper as long as they remain unbelieving, are they not?

I may be wrong--that's why I'm discussing this, because I'm trying to see it from all angles--but I think that the Lord's Supper is a gift to believers to strengthen their faith. Likewise, being able to depend solely on God for protection would be a gift only available to believers.

Thoughts?

Yes, unbelievers are forbidden from receiving the Lord's Supper, due to their sinful unbelief.

As the Westminster Confession states,