During the last year or so, I've been challenged by several threads to think about how to differentiate between sin and man-made ideas of what's right or what's wrong, between legalistic ideas of morality vs scriptural violations.

It started with the 'excitement' of the Super Bowl thread. Since the Super Bowl only happens once a year, it was fun to talk about who would win and by how much...that is, until it was mentioned that the Super Bowl was on Sunday. There was some debate about whether or not it was right to watch other people work on Sunday (breaking the Sabbath), but the thread quickly fizzled out. I'm guessing some may have watched the game, though it was never mentioned.

Then there were the threads about smoking and drinking. Everybody seemed to agree that doing it to excess was sin, most thought it was ok in moderation, and if I recall some pushed for abstinance.

The Passion of Christ thread was also divided. Some felt strongly that it broke the 2nd (?) commandment, and therefore refused to see the movie. Others didn't see it as a violation and chose to watch it.

More recently, there's the thread about whether it's right to watch movies that contain offensive language, sex scenes, etc. Most seem to feel its ok, some disagree.

How do you determine what's sinful and what's not? Once you get past the obvious violations of the 10 commandments, how do you then determine what is and what isn't sin? If something isn't explicitly condemned in the scriptures, does that mean its up to the individual to figure out - what may be sin for one person may not be sin for another?

Any thoughts?

__________________
Bob Howes
Framingham, MA

A reoccurring thought:

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

[quote:47ea680144="blhowes"]
How do you determine what's sinful and what's not? Once you get past the obvious violations of the 10 commandments, how do you then determine what is and what isn't sin? If something isn't explicitly condemned in the scriptures, does that mean its up to the individual to figure out - what may be sin for one person may not be sin for another?
[/quote:47ea680144]

Hey Bob, interesting question. My two cents.... There is a right answer to these "grey" areas. The problem is that we are still polluted with sin and have differing levels of grace and progress in sanctification. Until that difficulty is remedied in glory there will always be differences about how to apply the law to those areas. As you said, we usually know the obvious violations. Some require more thought into the nature and application of the law. Some areas are linked to our personal weaknesses or "thorns in the felsh" and thus it's wise to avoid them until we are stronger. Other issues are dangerous to us, and yet we may foolishly think ourselves not in danger for pursuing them. Whatever the case may be, it requires charity, patience, and meekness in all parties as we work through these issues together. Just because you may have wrestled and come to a conclusion about something, doesn't necessarily mean that you're right. There may still be more to consider. I know this is more general but perhaps it's a start.

__________________
Patrick
OPC
MDiv, RTS Jackson.

"He does well, that discourses of Christ; but he does infinitely better, that by experimental knowledge, feeds and lives on Christ." Thomas Brooks.

I like your answer Patrick especially

[quote:c706603796]Just because you may have wrestled and come to a conclusion about something, doesn't necessarily mean that you're right.[/quote:c706603796]

What concerns me in the circles I run is that most people seem to think the more "mature" you are in Christ the less strict the law will work in your life! The thought is that the deeper your relationship with Christ, the greater you "liberty".

Seems it would be the opposite to me? But maybe I am crazy.

__________________
Adam Leavelle
Westminster OPC
Roaring Spring Pa.

http://www.myspace.com/aleavelle
"Speak wisdom to a fool and he'll think you have no sense at all"

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

[quote:adb2c88bed="Patrick"]I know this is more general but perhaps it's a start.[/quote:adb2c88bed]Yes, and a good start at that.
[quote:adb2c88bed="Patrick"]
There is a right answer to these "grey" areas. The problem is that we are still polluted with sin and have differing levels of grace and progress in sanctification. Until that difficulty is remedied in glory there will always be differences about how to apply the law to those areas. [/quote:adb2c88bed]
With this in mind, in these 'grey' areas I'd like to stay away from looking at others and have each of us just focus on how we as individuals apply, or ideally should (or desire to) apply, the law to our everyday experiences. While we do this, we can trust Jesus with the walks of our brothers and sisters:

Rom 14:4 [i:adb2c88bed] Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.[/i:adb2c88bed]
[quote:adb2c88bed="Patrick"]
As you said, we usually know the obvious violations. Some require more thought into the nature and application of the law. Some areas are linked to our personal weaknesses or "thorns in the felsh" and thus it's wise to avoid them until we are stronger.[/quote:adb2c88bed] I agree. If I were an alcoholic or a heavy partier before I got saved, it'd be best for me to avoid going to bars or other activities that would pose a real threat to me sinning in that area. If I wasn't that way beforehand, I could be a little more free to go to bars, etc.
[quote:adb2c88bed="Patrick"]Other issues are dangerous to us, and yet we may foolishly think ourselves not in danger for pursuing them. Whatever the case may be, it requires charity, patience, and meekness in all parties as we work through these issues together. Just because you may have wrestled and come to a conclusion about something, doesn't necessarily mean that you're right. There may still be more to consider.[/quote:adb2c88bed]
Its too bad the deceitfulness of the heart didn't just disappear when we got saved. I praise the Lord for the scriptures that can help us see through some of this deceitfulness and the sin and allow us to have a more godly walk.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is [b:adb2c88bed]a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.[/b:adb2c88bed]

This may be the crux of my inquiry. How can we best use the scriptures so we can each 'cut to the chase' and get to the heart of the matter. Like perhaps everybody else, the sin in me, on the one hand, is like one of those good defense lawyers you see on TV. Whatever I do, it can be defended to seem ok. On the other hand, the sin in me is also like one of those good DAs you see on TV. Whatever I do, whether its sin or just a man-made rule, is brought up as evidence against me. The scriptures act as a judge to maintain 'order in the courtroom'.
[quote:adb2c88bed="houseparent"]What concerns me in the circles I run is that most people seem to think the more "mature" you are in Christ the less strict the law will work in your life! The thought is that the deeper your relationship with Christ, the greater you "liberty". Seems it would be the opposite to me? But maybe I am crazy.[/quote:adb2c88bed]
I can only speak for myself, but it concerns me when I 'mature' and sin bothers me less than it once did. If it once bothered me, for example, to hear my Savior's name blasphemed and now I've gotten so used to hearing it that it no longer bothers me, I tend to think more that my conscience has been skewed rather than that I've grown in grace, that I've been conformed to the world rather than being transformed by the scriptures.

The question is never is this "right or wrong?" The question is, "Does this glorify God?" If the chief end of man is to "glorify God and enjoy him forever," that concept should pretty well let us know what is right and wrong.

The young scribe, in the story of the Good Samaritan, asked Jesus who his neighbor was. Have you hear anything sillier? He knew who his neighbor was. He was only seeking to justify his sin of not loving his neighbor by narrowly defining who his neighbor was. In other words he wanted to do the least possible to be saved and still hold on to part of that old nature. Jesus addresses the same thing int he Sermon on the Mount. He said that the action was less important than the heart. His point was that a true follower of Jesus has a pure heart and, subsequently, pure actions. To hate one's neighbor or to lust after another indicates an impure heart, which Jesus indicated is sin. The Scribes and Pharisees defined the law narrowly so they could stay within the letter of the law and still have an impure heart. Jesus defined the law broadly. Let that be our guide. Furthermore, the Scripture says that friendship with the world is enmeity with God.

It is also relevant that when Jesus confronted the Twelve with the issue of forgiving a brother seven times in a day, they responded, "Lord, increase our faith." They responded so because they knew that a forgiving nature is not something that comes naturally. It only comes when one's heart is completely dominated by the Lord. This requires great faith. Anyone can see a lewd movie, read a racy novel, drink a beer, get a tatoo, have his belly-button pierced, etc., but only a true child of the living God who is living by faith can have a pure heart.

BTW, Stott rightly says that the key phrase in the Sermon on the Mount is found in Matthew 6:8. In reference to both the pagans and the Pharisees/Scribes Jesus says, "Don't do what they do." That pretty well sums it up.

__________________
Lance Johnson
Pastor / Iglesia Betania (Reformed Baptist)
Denton, Texas

"A fool does not delight in understanding, But only in revealing his own mind." Proverbs 18:2

I have said some of these things on other threads and personal messages . I can identify with some of the things Bob and Adam have said .
Maturity in Christ seems to be confused with a license to sin more . We humans are so prone to extremes . Christians are subject to this inclination . We rail against legalism , but err in the application of our " freedom in Christ " .
We sin when we deliberately set before us an object (maybe idol is a more suitable word) which communicates concentrated sin .
Many Puritans condemned plays , so did Spurgeon . Can you imagine Spurgeon watching with approval some of the movies and T.V. programs of today which some PB'ers have openly admired ?
I say again , legalism is wrong . But I would rather err in this direction rather than in the opposite tentency . We should learn and apply the good things about SOME fundamentalists . Many seem more godly than SOME Reformed folks . Many put me to shame . Again , if the motivation is a man-made duty, that is wrong and unscriptural . But if there is within a Christian a real desire to please the Lord , that is a good thing . And ONE aspect in pleasing Him may be in the avoidance of some things . True godliness is not just stressing negatives--the things we shouldn't do . It includes the things we should do--the positive things . There is a balance .

__________________
Tim Carr living and working in Pupyung-dong,South Korea. I am in fellowship with Seoul Bible Church.
There is no one I desire
more than you in earth or heaven,O Lord.

I found this quote in an article by one of my favorite writers. I think it fits!

[quote:6c988f9efc]G-R-A-Y-C-E, as in, no black and white. (i.e., no standards or absolutes) Christian pragmatists (oxymoron) consider scriptural obedience to be legalism. Jesus, on the other hand, said time and again that our love for Him was measured by our obedience to His Word, making pragmatism anything but Christ-like.[/quote:6c988f9efc]

Col. 3:5

Put to death therefore what is earthly in you : sexual immorality , impurity , passion , evil desire and covetousness , which is idolatry .

2 Cor. 7:1

Since we have these promises , beloved , let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit , bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God .

1 Thess. 4:7

For God has not called us for impurity , but in holiness .

1 Peter 1:14-17

As obedient children , do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance , but as He who called you is holy , you also be holy in all your conduct , since it is written , "You shall be holy , for I am holy . " And if you call on Him as Father who judges impartially according to each one's deeds , conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile .

1 Thess 2:12

We exhorted each one of you and encouraged you and charged you to walk in a manner worthy of God , who calls you into His own kingdom and glory .

1 Peter 2:11

Beloved , I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh , which wage war against your soul .

Romans 12 :2

Do not be conformed to this world , but be transformed by the renewal of your mind , that by testing you may discern what is the will of God , what is good and acceptable and perfect .

Eph. 4:23,24

and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds , and to put on the new self , created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness .

[quote:7f429bcebf="lkjohnson"]The question is never is this "right or wrong?" The question is, "Does this glorify God?" If the chief end of man is to "glorify God and enjoy him forever," that concept should pretty well let us know what is right and wrong.[/quote:7f429bcebf] I agree. A desire to glorify God is our starting point. Decisions about right and wrong will then become evident as we allow God to speak to us through the scriptures.

[quote:7f429bcebf="lkjohnson"]The Scribes and Pharisees defined the law narrowly so they could stay within the letter of the law and still have an impure heart. Jesus defined the law broadly. Let that be our guide. Furthermore, the Scripture says that friendship with the world is enmity with God. It is also relevant that when Jesus confronted the Twelve with the issue of forgiving a brother seven times in a day, they responded, "Lord, increase our faith." They responded so because they knew that a forgiving nature is not something that comes naturally. It only comes when one's heart is completely dominated by the Lord. This requires great faith. Anyone can see a lewd movie, read a racy novel, drink a beer, get a tatoo, have his belly-button pierced, etc., but only a true child of the living God who is living by faith can have a pure heart. [/quote:7f429bcebf]Thanks for the good advice.

None of us would like to be characterized as being a friend of the world if that means we're demonstrating enmity with God. Tim spoke of extremes. We don't want to go to the extreme when avoiding being a friend of the world by becoming a monk in a monastery, nor to we want to be so much like the world that you can't tell us apart from the world. How do we find balance in our relationship with the world and what would you say are the marks of a person who has a friendship with the world (and therefore is at enmity with God)?

[quote:7f429bcebf="Tim"]
Maturity in Christ seems to be confused with a license to sin more. We humans are so prone to extremes. Christians are subject to this inclination. [/quote:7f429bcebf] I agree that sometimes we're prone to extremes. With drinking alcohol, for example, we all know that excessive drinking is a sin. As Christians, we don't want to sin, so sometimes we go to the opposite extreme and abstain from drinking alcohol altogether, even in the privacy of our homes. Personally, I abstain from drinking alcohol, mostly because I never developed a taste for beer, wine, etc and just don't have any desire for it. But, if I did enjoy its taste, I wonder if it would be biblical for me to totally abstain or if that extreme is not what God intends.

I use to be convinced that abstinance was biblical, probably 'cause that's what everybody else I fellowshipped with believed. As with any other idea we pick up along the way, its worthwhile to test it with the scriptures. If abstinance is taught, let's abstain. If moderation is taught, let's use it in moderation.

[quote:7f429bcebf="Tim"]
I say again , legalism is wrong . But I would rather err in this direction rather than in the opposite tentency. We should learn and apply the good things about SOME fundamentalists . Many seem more godly than SOME Reformed folks . Many put me to shame.[/quote:7f429bcebf]
I'm not one for saying that one group is more godly than another group. I would agree that we can (and I have) learn many things from our fundamentalist brothers and sisters in Christ, just as we can from our reformed brethren.

[quote:cae9dc47ca="blhowes"]
None of us would like to be characterized as being a friend of the world if that means we're demonstrating enmity with God. Tim spoke of extremes. We don't want to go to the extreme when avoiding being a friend of the world by becoming a monk in a monastery, nor to we want to be so much like the world that you can't tell us apart from the world. How do we find balance in our relationship with the world and what would you say are the marks of a person who has a friendship with the world (and therefore is at enmity with God)?
[/quote:cae9dc47ca]

The difference is that Christians understand that most things in this world are vanity. We are here to glorify God. That principle should dominate everything we do. So when it comes to our physical possessions and needs, our chief end to is glorify God and enjoy Him, not ourselves. On the surface, much would not seem different from the world. We eat, we drink, we enjoy our families, we work, we enjoy some recreations. But, for the Christian, the chief motive is to use all to faciliate our calling to glorify and enjoy God. The friend of the world does all ultimately to glorify and enjoy himself. Again, a general answer, but hopefully helpful.

[quote:e81cacdb82="puritansailor"]
The difference is that Christians understand that most things in this world are vanity. We are here to glorify God. That principle should dominate everything we do. So when it comes to our physical possessions and needs, our chief end to is glorify God and enjoy Him, not ourselves. On the surface, much would not seem different from the world. We eat, we drink, we enjoy our families, we work, we enjoy some recreations. But, for the Christian, the chief motive is to use all to faciliate our calling to glorify and enjoy God. The friend of the world does all ultimately to glorify and enjoy himself. Again, a general answer, but hopefully helpful.[/quote:e81cacdb82]
Your general answers, and the posts of others, are most helpful.

[quote:e81cacdb82="Tim"]Col. 3:5 - Put to death therefore what is earthly in you : sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire and covetousness, which is idolatry.
2 Cor. 7:1 - Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.
1 Thess. 4:7 - For God has not called us for impurity, but in holiness.
1 Peter 1:14-17 - As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy . " And if you call on Him as Father who judges impartially according to each one's deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile.
1 Thess 2:12 - We exhorted each one of you and encouraged you and charged you to walk in a manner worthy of God, who calls you into His own kingdom and glory.
1 Peter 2:11 - Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul.
Romans 12:2 - Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
Eph. 4:23,24 - and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self,created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.[/quote:e81cacdb82]
Thanks, Tim, for sharing these verses. I've always used these verses, and others like them (1 John 2:15 etc) to support the idea of abstinance from things like drinking, smoking, cussing, dancing, movie viewing, etc. - anything associated with 'worldliness'. Abstinance seemed the way to go since, if doing these things is sinful, I wouldn't want to just 'sin a little bit'.

Do you think these verses support the idea of abstinance from these sorts of things?

Bob asked if I believed that the verses I cited in my August 29th post supported abstinance from a number of activities . I do not drink at all but I support moderate drinking . I mean the first miracle Jesus performed was turning the water into wine . And Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach problems . The trouble is where to draw the line on " moderate drinking ". I live in Korea . I do not think they know the meaning of the English or Korean word for moderate . Many Koreans get drunk several times a week . And there is no shame connected with it . If you are a professing Christian here and drink you are pegged as a hypocrite . That's because drinking means getting smashed , there is no middling road to speak of . And smoking ! This is the most smoking nation on earth ! ( I do not mean the modern connatation of the word ). I do not believe Spurgeon would be a smoker if he lived in this modern era . He was a voracious reader and I think that he would have concluded that just on a medical basis it would have been an unhealthy activity .
There is no question that Christians shouldn't curse . This is not a grey area . It is not up to the individual and God . But as I am typing I realize David cursed in a righteous manner with his imprecations especially at the end of Psalm 139 . But you all know the kind of cussing that is just not allowed by the Lord . Case closed .
Dancing ? David danced in adoration of the Lord . I doubt much dancing is done with that motivation . Maybe some forms of dance without the sensual aspects in evidence . I haven't thought about it much .
Movie viewing ? It sure would be a lot easier to just make a clean sweep of it and say all movies are out . In another thread I listed some of my favorite movies . There is no biblicaly sure tool of calibration that I know of to determine where the cut-off line is in what movies to watch or not to watch . I would say movies with cursing are a definite no-no though . Even so-called " good " movies contain parts where there is lying . Even the very medium is a lie . As I think of it , there are numerous things that are objectionable on a Scriptural basis in most , if not all movies .
There has to be a pronounced distinction between worldlings and the elect of God . We believers are too affected by relativity . We live in the grey areas too much . But in reality are they grey ? Does God think in grey ? We inhabit the sinful black realm more often than we would care to admit . I will give an arbitrary year ---1950 .(not my birthyear). Would even unregenerate individuals be shocked at what "Christians " of the future were engaged in while recreating ? We rub shoulders too much with the unsaved . By that I do not mean we shouldn't befriend them and witness to them ---we are too influenced by them ---not the other way around . We desperately need some sane , Scriptural , perspective . In another thread I quoted Isaiah 6 . Meditate on that .

Bob, I'm glad you started this thread: I've been very helped by reading some of the posts.

I do think that moderation is probably more what Scripture teaches us than abstinence. The passions of our flesh are immoderate and out of proportion, and are fed by excessive and disproportionate enjoyment. As the others have said, we are here to enjoy God; and everything else we enjoy is part of that. I think moderation is abused as a practice where we can have as much as we want of something, as long as we don't cross over into being blatantly wordly. But that whole idea of moderation is immoderate and out of proportion. God never calls us to have as much of something as we possibly can, except of Himself.

For some of us-- for me, for instance-- that means being extremely controlled in how much and what time I enjoy certain things or activities. I have to make rules beforehand, or I know I will cross over into enjoying them as an escape from the rigor of enjoying God, rather than as a means to that end.

If I can't control it, I find it's better to excise it completely. If our right arm offends us, we ought to cut it off rather than go on sinning, and risking our souls.

I have a more specific related question-- I have one of those consciences that will never stop once it finds out it can boss me around. I don't know if some things my conscience hounds me about are sin or not, because Scripture does not address them at all specifically. So with some things, I ask God to take them away, by making my husband disallow them or showing me in some other way that they are sin, if they are wrong. I am willing to give them up to God, as far as I know my own heart; but I am unwilling to give them up to a conscience that's not always scripturally informed, and that is tainted by sin itself.
Is that just an "easy way out", a way to be lazy and self-indulgent? (Of course my conscience hounds me that it is...)

__________________
Heidi
Indianapolis, Indiana

After two days, he will revive us; on the third day he will raise us up, that we may live before him.
Let us know; let us press on to know the LORD; his going out is sure as the dawn; he will come to us as the showers, as the spring rains that water the earth.

I believe the Christian conscience works with the Spirit. I am anxious to see what others think.

[quote:a49d99805d="Tim"]Bob asked if I believed that the verses I cited in my August 29th post supported abstinance from a number of activities. I do not drink at all but I support moderate drinking...[/quote:a49d99805d]
Tim, Thanks for your response.So, in summary of what you said, all the stuff, except foul language, is OK in moderation.

Its interesting how, to many (myself until recently), these activities are thought of as evil in and of themselves. Since doing them to excess is sin, its assumed that if you want to be 'really sanctified', you'll avoid them totally. That may or may not be what God intends. As many have rightly said, it sounds good and seems like the 'Christian way', but the questions is, 'Can the total abstinance be supported by the scriptures?"

As with anything else, its important to be sure that what we believe can be supported by the scriptures and is not just a manmade idea of what godliness is.

For the longest time, I found support for abstinance in the sermon on the mount where Jesus says, 'You have heard it said...but I say unto you'. He took some of the laws and brought them into sharper focus so that there can be no doubt that we are sinners. Some might think that because they haven't committed adultery, the actual act, that they haven't broken the commandment and are therefore OK in God's eyes. Jesus got to the heart of the matter when he said, "Whosoever looks upon a woman to lust after her, hath committed adultery..."

What I failed to think about with this passage as it relates to other conduct (should I drink, smoke, etc) is when (or if) its ever OK. Its clear that sex outside of marriage is a sin that should be avoided at all costs and we even need to control our thoughts in this regard to avoid trouble. But that doesn't mean that just because sex outside of marriage is sinful, that sex is also sinful. Within the marriage covenant (I'm starting to sound more and more like a CT), sex is allowed and is a blessing to be enjoyed. As with sex, the question needs to be asked when or if God allows these other things. Its a sin to get drunk, but are there times when God allows drinking alcohol and adds a blessing to it?

[quote:a49d99805d="Tim"]In another thread I quoted Isaiah 6 . Meditate on that .[/quote:a49d99805d]
Thanks. Good passage to meditate on.

[quote:a49d99805d="Heidi"]
Bob, I'm glad you started this thread: I've been very helped by reading some of the posts.[/quote:a49d99805d] I agree. Responses in this thread have been most helpful.

[quote:a49d99805d="Heidi"]
I do think that moderation is probably more what Scripture teaches us than abstinence. The passions of our flesh are immoderate and out of proportion, and are fed by excessive and disproportionate enjoyment. As the others have said, we are here to enjoy God; and everything else we enjoy is part of that. I think moderation is abused as a practice where we can have as much as we want of something, as long as we don't cross over into being blatantly wordly. But that whole idea of moderation is immoderate and out of proportion. God never calls us to have as much of something as we possibly can, except of Himself.[/quote:a49d99805d] I'm so glad that one of the fruits of the Spirit is self control. God will help us in our struggle with sin to have the self control (and common sense) to avoid sin. For things that aren't sinful, he can also help us have the self control to not overindulge ourselves.

[quote:a49d99805d="Heidi"]
For some of us-- for me, for instance-- that means being extremely controlled in how much and what time I enjoy certain things or activities. I have to make rules beforehand, or I know I will cross over into enjoying them as an escape from the rigor of enjoying God, rather than as a means to that end. [/quote:a49d99805d]
Sounds like the 'self-control' I spoke of in the last response.


[quote:a49d99805d="Heidi"]
If I can't control it, I find it's better to excise it completely. If our right arm offends us, we ought to cut it off rather than go on sinning, and risking our souls.[/quote:a49d99805d]
That sounds pretty wise to me (especially since its what Jesus said). No sense playing with fire...and ending up getting burned.

[quote:a49d99805d="Heidi"]
I have a more specific related question-- I have one of those consciences that will never stop once it finds out it can boss me around. I don't know if some things my conscience hounds me about are sin or not, because Scripture does not address them at all specifically. So with some things, I ask God to take them away, by making my husband disallow them or showing me in some other way that they are sin, if they are wrong. I am willing to give them up to God, as far as I know my own heart; but I am unwilling to give them up to a conscience that's not always scripturally informed, and that is tainted by sin itself.
Is that just an "easy way out", a way to be lazy and self-indulgent? (Of course my conscience hounds me that it is...)[/quote:a49d99805d]
I praise the Lord for our consciences. It can be an excellent tool to help us in our walk. But, just like the rest of us, its tainted by sin and needs to be kept in check by the scriptures.

Ezek 14:3---these men have taken their idols into their hearts , and set the stumbling block of their iniquity before their faces...

Romans 6:12---Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies , to make you obey their passions .

Romans 13:14---But put on the Lord Jesus Christ , and make no provision for the flesh , to gratify its desires .

Eph. 5:11---Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness , but instead expose them .

Titus 2:12---training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions , and to live self-controlled , upright , and godly lives in the present age .

Psalm 97:10 O you who love the Lord , hate evil !

Psalm 119:128 C ... I hate every false way .

Proverbs 8:13 The fear of the Lord is to hate evil.

2 Timothy 2:19 Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart
from iniquity .

We cannot love God without hating that which He hates . We are not only to avoid evil , and refuse to continue in it , but we must be up in arms against it , and bear towards it a hearty indignation .

Man I love this place! You all have any idea how I never, EVER hear opinions like this from people who claim to be my brothers and sisters in the Lord? uzzled:

But I have a question...

How am I to act/treat/be with people who argue against the things said in this topic? I want so badly to hold a bible study at my work place, and have in the past. But when I teach like this, I get people angry. Many leave and then gossip about me amongst my co-workers.

Yet these same people still send me prayer requests, or christian e-mails, etc. These same people offer grace at meals, and witness to some heathen co-workers. Much of what they do seems so genuine. But talk to them about the law, or about liberty not being liscense, and they will turn on you like a VIPER!

Thoughts?

[quote:8dd8400f96="houseparent"]But I have a question...
How am I to act/treat/be with people who argue against the things said in this topic? I want so badly to hold a bible study at my work place, and have in the past. But when I teach like this, I get people angry. Many leave and then gossip about me amongst my co-workers.

Yet these same people still send me prayer requests, or christian e-mails, etc. These same people offer grace at meals, and witness to some heathen co-workers. Much of what they do seems so genuine. But talk to them about the law, or about liberty not being liscense, and they will turn on you like a VIPER!

Thoughts?[/quote:8dd8400f96]
Adam,
I was just wondering if you've ever had the chance to talk with these Christians who are gossiping with other co-workers? It doesn't sound like a good testimony to your coworkers (who I assume may be unsaved) for them to be undermining the work that you're attempting to do there.

Is it possible that they're misunderstanding what you're trying to say? Do they think that you're saying that you have to keep the law to be saved? What do you think they object to most about what you were teaching?

What they object to most is my over all teaching of prayerfully, and scripturally becoming more Christ like. Before we started the group that was the expressed direction.

We work 24/7 with kids and as such I feel the Lord leading me in that way. We have a major responsability to yeild ourselves to the word of God and the Spirit. Everyone had agreed. It went well for a while. Then all of a sudden a few people wanted to talk more about the Spirit, the fruit of the Spirit and the gifts of the spirit.

Oh I will come right out with what I think happened...

We had a charismatic couple cause a stir. In fact he actually told me he thought he should be the leader! We had many private discussions but I suspect he shared his feeling with the group and they thought it was all too much. NO ONE has ever confirmed that with me, but one former member of our group told me this same man corrupted his un-saved wife's mind in regard to what "salvation" really is.

I fight bitterness every day towards this man, and he has really made me struggle with charismatics. I just wonder how "strict" we are to be in regard to opening our study of the word to those who "call themselves" Christians. Should we have private meetings with everyone outside the study? Do we handle disruptions just like a church would?

Ugh....