A question about Sabbath

***Joshua*** · #81 (**permalink**) 11-04-2009, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reformedminister

Like Calvin, I enjoy lawn bowling...

If you're rehashing the tired accusation that Calvin bowled on the Lord's Day, such not been proven. See here: Calvin in the Hands of the Philistines: Or Did Calvin Bowl on the Sabbath? | Naphtali Press

awretchsavedbygrace · #82 (**permalink**) 11-16-2009, 04:54 PM

Just a note. This whole notion of John Calvin bowling on the Lord's day is a pretty weak argument. What does that have to do with observing The Lord's Day? If John Calvin bowled on The Lord's Day, how does that some how lead to the conclusion that we shouldn't observe The Lord's Day? The Word of God says we must rest on this day and not labor. Whether John Calvin did or did not does not in anyway persuade us from not observing.

kevin.carroll · #83 (**permalink**) 11-16-2009, 07:29 PM

Perhaps a more helpful approach that considering what NOT to do on the Sabbath, is what to do. Go to church. Morning and night.

***NaphtaliPress*** · #84 (**permalink**) 11-16-2009, 08:36 PM

i.e. It's a given the Lord's day is not bowling night.
I do agree the issue of raising this Calvin bowling story is immaterial. At most it proves Calvin a hypocrite, which I don't think is the intent of those who raise it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevin.carroll

Perhaps a more helpful approach that considering what NOT to do on the Sabbath, is what to do. Go to church. Morning and night.

Kaalvenist · #85 (**permalink**) 11-16-2009, 08:53 PM

I just recently finished teaching a few lessons about the Sabbath for the adult Sabbath School class at our church. One of the things we concluded was that, if we're really doing what we ought to on the Sabbath (secret, family, and public worship, godly fellowship and conversation, works of necessity and mercy), there's not really much time to engage in common labors or recreations. Even though I would, and did, argue that Isaiah 58:13 specifically inveighs against recreations on the Sabbath, it becomes a moot point if we actually focus on keeping the day holy to God in worshipping and serving Him the whole day (not just an hour or two at church), instead of focusing on what not to do.

Scott1 · #86 (**permalink**) 11-16-2009, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaalvenist

I just recently finished teaching a few lessons about the Sabbath for the adult Sabbath School class at our church. One of the things we concluded was that, if we're really doing what we ought to on the Sabbath (secret, family, and public worship, godly fellowship and conversation, works of necessity and mercy), there's not really much time to engage in common labors or recreations. Even though I would, and did, argue that Isaiah 58:13 specifically inveighs against recreations on the Sabbath, it becomes a moot point if we actually focus on keeping the day holy to God in worshipping and serving Him the whole day (not just an hour or two at church), instead of focusing on what not to do.

It's been helpful in understanding this and the Westminster Standards summary of this to see it in that light...

The reason we ordinarily prepare in advance, and abstain from work and play is so that we can prioritize worship the whole day. This is not true of the other six days of the week because on them we are commanded to prioritize work, which is the other side of the fourth commandment.

It's interesting that some who argue against the first part of the fourth commandment, do not address the second part of it. They fit together, and pattern our lives based on God's example in creation.

Kaalvenist · #87 (**permalink**) 11-16-2009, 10:11 PM

Exactly. There are many errors into which people run about this day:

1. denying its perpetual moral obligation;
2. denying its change from the seventh to the first day of the week under the New Testament;
3. denying it extends to the entire day;
4. denying the prohibition of both labor and recreation, etc.

Most of these errors would be corrected if people simply recognized the scriptural principle that worship and rest go hand in hand. This can be seen especially throughout passages like Exodus 5 and Leviticus 23. If it is a day of worship to God, it must necessarily be a day of rest from ordinary activity, in order to be free to worship.

This means that the Lord's Day, the first day of the week, wherein New Testament believers worshipped, is the abiding Sabbath of rest; it is the Lord's DAY, not the Lord's hour, in which we owe Him not just public worship, but all of the devotions I already mentioned; the purpose of the prohibition of labor is to free us for His worship, and therefore anything else which hinders us from that worship is likewise forbidden.

Scott1 · #88 (**permalink**) 11-16-2009, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Question 121: Why is the word Remember set in the beginning of the fourth commandment?

Answer: The word Remember is set in the beginning of the fourth commandment, partly, because of the great benefit of remembering it, we being thereby helped in our preparation to keep it, and, in keeping it, better to keep all the rest of the commandments, and to continue a thankful remembrance of the two great benefits of creation and redemption, which contain a short abridgment of religion; and partly, because we are very ready to forget it, for that there is less light of nature for it, and yet it restrains our natural liberty in things at other times lawful; that it comes but once in seven days, and many worldly businesses come between, and too often take off our minds from thinking of it, either to prepare for it, or to sanctify it;and that Satan with his instruments much labor to blot out the glory, and even the memory of it, to bring in all irreligion and impiety.

Also, few things so comprehensively reveal our sin as our resentment that God has a regular, focused, prioritized claim on our time.

We worship created things (e.g. money) and we won't rest
We get angry and we don't rest
We have less time to study God through His Word so we are more likely to take His Name in vane
We are more likely to become angry without control and we don't rest

Our old nature greatly resents a regular check on our idolatrous, self seeking ways and so we rationalize the only "rest" we have is spiritual, or our favorite form of recreation or entertainment.

It becomes more clear how keeping the fourth commandment helps us keep all the other commandments better, and experience a foretaste of the heavenly sabbath rest that is to come.

God help us to see that!

ReformedWretch · #89 (**permalink**) 11-17-2009, 03:37 AM

May I ask a simple question?

Those of you advocating the strictest adherence to sabbath "rest" are saying you avoid everything and anything that you cannot do "to the glory of God"? On the surface that sounds like something one would obviously do. However, that being said, are there not many times we do not do things to God's glory simply due to lack of focus/perspective? Does that get easier on Sunday?

Quote:

Perhaps a more helpful approach that considering what NOT to do on the Sabbath, is what to do. Go to church. Morning and night.

I would agree with this if Churches we're an all day and night affair. Instead most churches, even reformed, last 60-90 minutes and members get annoyed if the time ever extends over the schedule.

I'd LOVE a Church that opened late morning (say 10am) and there was worship, meals, fellowship, prayer, etc. ALL DAY LONG, say until at least 6pm. No such Church exists that I've even heard of, and I don't see one ever existing because I know of hardly ANY person that would attend such.

Scott1 · #90 (**permalink**) 11-17-2009, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Westminster Confession of Faith

Chapter XXI
Of Religious Worship, and the Sabbath Day

VIII. This Sabbath is to be kept holy unto the Lord when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all the day from their own works, words, and thoughts about their wordly employments and recreations,[38] but also are taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of His worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.[39]

It might be helpful to understand this in terms of prioritizing the entire day on worship- personal, family and corporate and works of mercy and necessity.

So, while one may only be in church one or two hours on the Lord's Day (e.g. Corporate Worship, and Sunday School), one might also have Bible reading at home and also meet with a prayer group sometime that day.

One of the difficult parts of the "ceasing" is to try, by God's grace to direct our thoughts, minds, as well as our actions toward God. That means trying to focus on prayer, meditating on God's Word, even singing during "quiet times" during the day.

There is no exact set pattern, each person's circumstances will be somewhat different, but here is a possible way one could spend the Lord's Day, at least as I understand it, in consonance with the doctrine of Scripture:

7a Personal quiet Bible reading/prayer
9a Bible Class
11a Corporate Worship
1230n Lunch at home, invite a new, needy person for hospitality
2p Nap or quiet time
4p Family Bible reading
6p Small group/evening worship/Bible class
8p Sing/music (psalms, hymns, spiritual songs)
9p Bedtime prayer

"Religious conversation" and reading/studying Christian books can also help in directing our thoughts, words and actions towards the "ceasing" from work and play and toward worship.

Also, understand this,
no other day, ordinarily, is set up like this.

There is no other common time for Christians to worship corporately at this level of priority. While we might have some elements of this on any other day of the week, we are commanded to prioritize our work on the other days. That's what the fourth commandment/sabbath/Lord's Day is about.

**KMK** · #91 (**permalink**) 11-17-2009, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReformedWretch

May I ask a simple question?

Those of you advocating the strictest adherence to sabbath "rest" are saying you avoid everything and anything that you cannot do "to the glory of God"? On the surface that sounds like something one would obviously do. However, that being said, are there not many times we do not do things to God's glory simply due to lack of focus/perspective? Does that get easier on Sunday?

Quote:

Perhaps a more helpful approach that considering what NOT to do on the Sabbath, is what to do. Go to church. Morning and night.

I would agree with this if Churches we're an all day and night affair. Instead most churches, even reformed, last 60-90 minutes and members get annoyed if the time ever extends over the schedule.

I'd LOVE a Church that opened late morning (say 10am) and there was worship, meals, fellowship, prayer, etc. ALL DAY LONG, say until at least 6pm. No such Church exists that I've even heard of, and I don't see one ever existing because I know of hardly ANY person that would attend such.

That appeals to me as well, but it would put an impossible burden upon the elders week in and week out. So much preparation goes into just a 90 minute service that I go home and literally collapse. After a few hours of rest my wife and I can then prepare for evening activities. (Maybe I am just old)

DD2009 · #92 (**permalink**) 11-17-2009, 11:31 AM

I vote for the continental view because recreation is rest. Recreation lowers stress and creates bonding time for people. It is fun. I think God likes it.

PastorTim · #93 (**permalink**) 11-17-2009, 06:28 PM

Try this. Jesus Christ, as Lord of the Sabbath fulfilled it when he fulfilled the law and IS our sabbath, in whom we find true rest

austinww · #94 (**permalink**) 11-17-2009, 07:21 PM

While I am still struggling with this issue, I have been observing the Lord's Day as Sabbath for the past few months while I am still researching it, and I have been very blessed in doing so. Setting aside the Lord's Day for public worship, singing psalms and hymns at my apartment, studying the Bible, catechisms, etc., reading theology, reading The Pilgrim's Progress, and not shopping or eating out or doing my homework has been a great blessing to me. Even if I end up concluding that the Lord's Day is not the equivalent of the OC Sabbath, I don't think I will give the practice up.

-----Added 11/17/2009 at 06:21:36 EST-----

For those new to Sabbatarian arguments, I posted a question about this a while back and received some truly excellent responses. Please take the time to read them:

What convinced you of the Sabbath?

darrellmaurina · #95 (**permalink**) 11-18-2009, 05:04 AM

One proof of the depth of the rebelliousness of the human heart is that when God tells us to take a day off, many refuse.

beej6 · #96 (**permalink**) 11-18-2009, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReformedWretch

I'd LOVE a Church that opened late morning (say 10am) and there was worship, meals, fellowship, prayer, etc. ALL DAY LONG, say until at least 6pm. No such Church exists that I've even heard of, and I don't see one ever existing because I know of hardly ANY person that would attend such.

I know of a few churches where (at least some days) there was Sunday school at, say 9, morning worship at 10:30, fellowship lunch, then an afternoon service at 1:30 (usually in lieu of an evening service).

I've only belonged to two confessional Presbyterian churches, but both follow(ed) a similar schedule: Sunday school and worship (or vice versa) around 10, fellowship lunch, generally folks hung around until 2-3PM. Then either evening worship or study class.

tdowns · #97 (**permalink**) 11-18-2009, 01:21 PM

and this does not answer the Sabbath question at all,
but being a teacher, parent of 4, small group counselor, friend (and often counselor/adviser to some of those), husband, and very social person all week long; being around people all day on a Sunday, is just not REST to me at all.

The service is great, then home for nap, walking, hanging with kids, a bike ride, all are very restful...for me, rest is taking a break from interactions with people outside my immediate family, and when the church does events that I feel obligated to attend on a Sunday afternoon, it's not restful, so the church all day would not be great for me.

Just my perspective, on what rest is.

Kaalvenist · #98 (**permalink**) 11-18-2009, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PastorTim

Try this. Jesus Christ, as Lord of the Sabbath fulfilled it when he fulfilled the law and IS our sabbath, in whom we find true rest

What is meant by Christ "fulfilling" the Sabbath "when he fulfilled the law"? Are you meaning that the fourth commandment is now abrogated? If so, where does that place the rest of the Ten Commandments?

On the other hand, if Christ's "fulfilling" the law does not abrogate the Ten Commandments -- in keeping with what He said in Matthew 5:17, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil" -- why would His "fulfilling" of the fourth commandment mean that it is abrogated?

Does the fact that Jesus is "Lord of the Sabbath" mean, in that context (Matt. 12:1-13; Mark 2:23-3:5; Luke 6:1-10) that the Sabbath is abrogated, or that He exercises a special lordship and sovereignty over that day, no less than He did under the Old Testament, when it was still of force ("the sabbath of the LORD thy God," Exod. 20:10)? If the latter, why would His being "Lord of the Sabbath" mean that the Sabbath is any less of force under the New Testament?

**KMK** · #99 (**permalink**) 11-19-2009, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PastorTim

Try this. Jesus Christ, as Lord of the Sabbath fulfilled it when he fulfilled the law and IS our sabbath, in whom we find true rest

Try this:

Quote:

LBC 22:7 As it is the law of nature, that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, be set apart for the worship of God, so by his Word, in a positive moral, and perpetual commandment, binding all men, in all ages, he has particularly appointed one day in seven for a sabbath to be kept holy unto him, which from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ was changed into the first day of the week, which is called the Lord's Day: and is to be continued to the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week being abolished.

Please do not advocate unconfessional views here on PB.

Timothy William · #**100** (**permalink**) 11-19-2009, 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReformedWretch

I'd LOVE a Church that opened late morning (say 10am) and there was worship, meals, fellowship, prayer, etc. ALL DAY LONG, say until at least 6pm. No such Church exists that I've even heard of, and I don't see one ever existing because I know of hardly ANY person that would attend such.

I've heard of churches in Japan* which do this. I would like to attend such a church. But I also know that it would be a great stress on those organising such activities. And I cannot blame my failures to keep the Sabbath on there only being 90 minutes of formal worship at church.

*I think it was Japan, it may have been Korea.

Can I ask a question? What topics of conversation are allowed among believers on the Lord's Day?

Scott1 · #**101** (**permalink**) 11-19-2009, 05:03 AM

A few thoughts that might be helpful in understanding this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by DD2009

I vote for the continental view
It appears from a study of church history that what are now called the puritan and continental views of the sabbath are not much different in practice (see post#2 for links to several earlier threads on this topic).

because recreation is rest.

Yes, we can find recreation restful, but not what sabbath "ceasing" means. We rest from the ordinary work and play of the rest of the week in order to prioritize worship all the day.

Recreation lowers stress and creates bonding time for people.
Yes, there is value in recreation. Sometimes, our recreation (e.g. competition and organizing and sweating) can add some stress too, even though we find it personally enjoyable.

But the sabbath is not defined by us choosing anything we find enjoyable and calling that worship.

Remember, "sabbath" is ceasing, particularly from the ordinary work and all the words and thoughts that drive us the other six days in order that we might have focused, priority time on God.

It is fun. I think God likes it.

Yes, recreation can be fun. Based on the fourth commandment (Exodus 20, Deuteronomy 5), God likes us to remember the sabbath day and keep it holy even more though. In fact, He commands His creatures to do so.

Remember the heart of the command:

1) sabbath "cease" (from ordinary work and play and the seeking of it in thought, word and deed)
2) holy "set apart" (the day is set apart from the common things of the rest of the week)
3) work the other days

tdowns tdowns

Quote:

Maybe it's me...
and this does not answer the Sabbath question at all,
but being a teacher, parent of 4, small group counselor, friend (and often counselor/adviser to some of those), husband, and very social person all week long; being around people all day on a Sunday, is just not REST to me at all.

You're touching on something very important.

The fourth commandment is not to just relax all day and do whatever one imagines might be enjoyable to them.

It is to cease from the ordinary activities (work and play) that consume our time on the other six days in order that we might prioritize worship all day. Remembering that worship is personal, family and corporate and directing our thoughts and words, as well as our actions toward that.

It does not mean the day is not busy or full- it may be, but in a way that is different from the other six days occupied by other common pursuits.

One other thing that might be helpful in understanding this is that we have an opportunity to take a break from ourselves in the sense that we are not preoccupied with making money, earning a living or seeking to entertain ourselves. The focus is primarily on God, all the day, without the distractions of our ordinary, worldly recreations and employments.

In this generation, this is one of the more difficult aspects of the Christian life. We have a culture that ruthlessly seeks self- entertaining, recreating, amusing ourselves every moment of every day, when we are not making the money to support it.

But God calls us to "cease" from this pattern (not that work or play are inherently sinful) so that we "set apart" from them one day, and follow His ordinance from Creation that recognizes the Creation and redemption.