Perhaps it is a good thing I dont much care to watch the NFL...glad the NCAA plays on saturdays.

__________________
Joseph F Scibbe
Chaplain Assistant
Chapel of Wings Ft Rucker Al
Ephesians 1:4-7, 1 Thessalonians 2:8, Romans 12:1-2
Titus 2:2 - But you, teach what accords with sound doctrine.

http://twitter.com/just_joe_scibbe

Carl,

We have all learned more about what Scripture says about the Fourth Commandment here on Puritan Board.

Some of us were blessed to have had grandfathers who, somehow understood this and tried to live it out before their grandchildren.

I realize your point is one many might say- the idea that it is somehow "Pharisee-like" to represent the Fourth Commandment.

But the Fourth Commandment is a moral, perpetual commandment upon all God's creatures, one that God observed even at Creation as example to us.

Here's what I think "legalism" or "Pharisee" behavior is:

1) adding commandments of men to bind men's consciences that are NOT in Scripture
2) seeking to justify oneself (in the sense of justification for salvation) by any pretense of perfectly obeying God
3) wrong, man made interpretations of law given by God

In the end, the Fourth Commandment is summarized by our Confession to require 3 main practical things for our life:

1) advance preparation
2) abstain from work
3) abstain from recreation

This so that one might "cease" from those ordinary activities of the rest of the week and prioritize the worship of God all the day.

None of these are of that sort. They may be inconvient, the may be hard to accept that God makes such claim on His creatures, but there is nothing "added to" in them basically, only our own insistence as sinners to rationalize ways to not obey.

One other thing I have found helpful in understanding this- one can never really get a hold of this until they see the Fourth Commandment as a tremendous gift of God- a rest which is a taste, only a taste of the heavenly rest, something to look forward to, a DELIGHT.

__________________
Scott
PCA
North Carolina


"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)"
Hebrews 10:23

Just as a reminder for those who haven't seen it yet, I'll repost this quote by Terry Johnson (found here):

Sproul is a godly and honorable man, but he is wrong on this, and I've seen him publicly corrected on this issue before (by Derek Thomas).

__________________
Tim Phillips
Pastor, Midlane Park Presbyterian Church (ARP)
Louisville, KY
Husband of Scottish Lass
My Blog: Gairney Bridge
My Facebook/My Avatar

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"Wherever the gospel is preached, it is as if God Himself came into the midst of us." ~ John Calvin

'Phariseeism' is the belief that one can make himself more or less righteous by which rules he chooses to follow or not follow. I challenge anyone to find a Puritan who even hinted at the possibility that one could be more righteous by avoiding recreation on the Sabbath.

The point that is being made with the words of Jesus, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath," points out that keeping the Sabbath is a loving gift to man, not to make him more righteous, but to help him meet his chief end of glorifying God and enjoying Him forever.

__________________


http://www.villagecommunitychurch.org/


"Preparing a sermon is like cooking a meal. You need pots and pans and utensils, but you don't bring them out to the table where people are eating." Derek Thomas


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For me to say "I like to watch football on Sunday," is not advocating others to do the same (no matter how much you may think it is). To advocate a position would be to argue for its acceptance. If you can show me where I have argued for the acceptance of others in the watching of football on Sunday, I will publicly repent and seek your forgiveness.

I am trying to understand how one reconciles this interpretation of the confession with Romans 14 and Colossians 2 (this is an honest question and not meant to be confrontational).

__________________
Carl Gobelman
Long Grove Community Church (Evangelical)
Vernon Hills, IL
Blog: http://newcreationperson.wordpress.com

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come."

In Carl's defense, because I too have come from an unreformed background, I know how hard it can be to accept certain things in the confessions in the way they are intended, (thats not to say that I don't accept them now). In non reformed circles the "legalism" tag gets put on anything that seems remotely like following rules, and I think this mentality can be hard to shake off when you are newly reformed. Personally I don't approve of doing stuff like watching sports on a Sunday, but I didn't come to this view overnight.

However I respect the fact that on a reformed board people must never promote unreformed practice, thats what makes this board worth coming to, because it is so full of sound advice and teaching. Sometimes its just a bit of a big leap for some people, thats all We're all willing to learn!

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Bern
Evangelical
Kent UK

Mr. Gobelman,

I apologize that my perceived tone has offended you. Please forgive me. My response is zealous because of your use of the attribution of pharisee-ism and or legalism. Had you never employed such language I wouldn't feel the need to comment further. Even when you simply put "seems" before it, it is still an unfair and inaccurate accusation. When such language is used, Moderators are obliged to step in and put a check on it. However, if you want to remove your allusion to all things "pharisee-ish" or "legalist," I'll be happy to not press the matter anymore. I assure you I mean no ill will toward you or anyone else, but the Confession is the standard here. I regret that it causes unrest or hurt feelings to anyone, but we like to keep to board tight, and upholding the Confession (historically understood) is one of the ways in which we're able to do that.

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
Facebook - The Calvinist Vent
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It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

Thank you Scott1!

This is the kind of irenic answer that helps me to progress...

I wasn't asking on the basis of physical exertion, but on recreation.

If we are to abstain from recreation on the Sabbath, does that mean that sex on that day is sinful?

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Daniel
PCA
Memphis, TN

What constitutes labor then?

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Aaron
Independent Baptist
Holland MI

Maybe I am being dense but how is sex "recreation" in the same way Baseball or Football is "recreation"?

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Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, Licentiate, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
Member Fairmount ARP Church
Pittsburgh, PA

Deo Vindice

The Confession doesn't speak to sports, only recreation. There is a lot that has nothing to do with sports that would fall under "recreation". I've heard many on the PB argue against recreation because the day is not for man's enjoyment. Many have also said (similar to the WCF) that all of our thoughts and conversations need to be on the things of God.

I just don't see how sex fits into that.

Folks, I think a little common sense would go a long way in this issue: if you just had a really busy week, and you came home and told your wife, "I just want to take a day off without doing any work;" there isn't really much ambiguity as to what you mean. Of course, daily life requires by necessity some form of exertion or physical acts and labor. However, one day in seven is to be set apart from our normal, worldly works and entertainments. We don't go to work; we don't have this as a day for doing housework; or shopping; or watching the game; or mowing the lawn, playing tennis with our friends or running errands. Instead, we attend the public assemblies and to our private and familial acts of piety, and so celebrate our rest in the Lord as we look forward to our great, eternal rest in glory. Yes, of course not every minute of the day is going to focused consciously upon Public and private worship. Of course not. But this is not the point. It is a day set apart for these things. It seems we try overly hard sometimes to figure out what is and is not allowed, or what constitutes work or entertainments, etc. Really, it mostly just takes plain sense.

Carl,

With respect to Col. 2 and Romans 14: the immediate association of "sabbaths" in Col. with the new moon fests, etc., shows that we are talking about something specifically Judaical and ceremonial -- not moral. In Romans 14, the close association with eating or not eating meats shows, again, that we're not talking about moral duties, but weak believers with certain superstitions or weakness of conscience regarding a day. It does not speak, however, against the moral duty of observing the creation-ordained Sabbath, which has even greater meaning with the advent of Christ.

__________________
Paul Korte
OPC
Flint, MI

They who perceive in themselves discoveries of the divine goodness, so full and absolutely perfect, and who make them the subject of earnest meditation, will never embrace new doctrines, by which the very grace they feel so powerfully in themselves is thrown into the shade. --John Calvin

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Alistair Begg did a really good job of preaching on this subject. Part two of the message is available for free at the Truth for Life website. I don't know what happened to part one, but I'm sure if you asked, they'd let you download it for free.

Resource - Truth for Life

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TE Brian Carpenter
Pastor, Foothills PCA Sturgis, SD
www.thehappytr.blogspot.com www.afiresidechat.blogspot.com
"In vain th' unlighted pipe you blow;
Your pains in inward means are so,
'Till heav'nly fire thy heart inspire.
Thus think, and smoke tobacco."

The confession has directly in mind when mentioning "recreation" the so-called "Book of Sports". Just because the Football League was not formed till 1878 does not mean recreation and "Sports" are separate things.

If having sex on the Sabbath causes you to sin then refrain from it.

Had one. It was awesome to watch in practice. He once pitched a game (dice or cards, I don't recall) that my aunt and her friend were playing into the fireplace as he would not have gaming in his house. He was Old School and lived it every minute.

I still remember my grandmother telling my uncle (talking about work that week at after-church coffee at their place) "Mei net sizze - net op Zondag!!" (Approximately: Don't talk like that, not on Sunday!)

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Kevin, husband of a truly angelic woman, and father to ten.
Zion United Reformed Church of Sheffield
Ontario, Canada

The Lord's Day is for worship, rest, fellowship, and works of necessity and mercy. So then, our thoughts, words, and deeds are to be directed towards these things.

One questions I have is "What things are appropriate for fellowship?" Can we kick a soccer ball leisurely with one another? Can we discuss the weather at church? Are we pursuing our own pleasures? Or are we building up the church by fellowshipping with one another? Or may we only fellowship with one another by speaking of the things of God? This thread is very interesting.

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Josh
URC
Sioux Center, IA
www.christianhomeschoolstore.com

Resting from physical work is ineffectual if you haven't first found rest in Christ from your works and wickedness. Salvation gives us this rest unendingly, and the Sabbath points us to this. We have died to ourselves and walk in newness of life towards God: By his grace we are given the nature to apprehend the pleasure found in him and the ability to practice the first commandment unceasingly: We do our pleasure on the Lord's Day the same as on every other day of the week.

Is there a blessing in resting from our physical labor on the seventh day? Absolutely. Is this the entire scope of the Sabbath (and the blessings and cursings regarding it)? Certainly not.

__________________
Matthew Philip Miller | Reformed Baptist, SBC
Student of Theology at Trinity College of Florida

Iniquities prevail against me; As for our transgressions, You will provide atonement for them. Blessed is the man You choose, And cause to approach You, That he may dwell in Your courts. We shall be satisfied with the goodness of Your house, Of Your holy temple.
Psalms 65:3-4 (NKJV)

It might sound as if someone said "Yes, sexual relations on the Sabbath is acceptable" then you might come right back and use that to justify all sorts of other things.

I think that is something for you and your wife to think about before God and an open bible. Conjugal relations are a special form of fellowship between you and your wife.

Certainly if it was keeping you from other Sabbath tasks like going to church it would be distracting you from even more important things.

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Richard
communicant member, FCoS
Perth, Scotland UK

His Name forever shall endure;
last like the sun it shall:
Men shall be blessed in Him,
and blessed all nations shall Him call (Ps. 72:17)

Good questions, good observations.

For clarification, I take exception to the Confession's statement of abstaining from recreation, so I don't personally think there's anything wrong with sex on the Sabbath. I'm just looking for clarification from those who strictly hold to the Confession in this regard.

Not exactly. In your previous post (which has been deleted) you specifically state that recreation on the Sabbath is not sin. If you are truly "just looking for clarification" then ask questions without promoting your unconfessional views.

You know what's interesting here is that we're not talking much about calling the Sabbath a delight. If somebody told me that I could have one day a week to work on resurrecting and modifying one of the many dead motorcycles in my yard, and told me that I would not be interrupted at it unless it was really important, I would rejoice.

If someone told me to have a nice evening out with my wife, and I spent our time at dinner looking over her head at the football game on TV, my wife would rightly conclude that time with her didn't mean too much to me.

The Christian sabbath is a gift. It's God saying, "Come away with me for a little while."

The subtext that seems to be dominating much of this conversation is "What can I get away with doing?" I want to suggest that subtext is 100% wrong. If we truly believe what the Psalmist says, "Whom have I in heaven but you? And earth has nothing I desire besides you." (Ps 73:25) then we wouldn't spend so much time trying to figure out boundaries of what we can and can't do. We would instinctively know that some things distract us from the Lord, some things are neutral, and some things enhance our Godward motions. We would avoid the former whenever possible, make wise use of the middle option, and spend the bulk of our time and energy on the latter.

The fact that we find it a burden says far more about what we truly love, and what (or who) we don't love as much as we ought.

OK, I kind of get the response in relation to Col. 2 (I would like to research this more). However, I don't think I get the connection in regards to the Rom. 14 passage. I don't think it speaks against the observance of the Sabbath either, but in how one observes it; am I wrong in this?

At the expense of being flippant (please don't take it this way, but I'm going to be hyperbolic to make my point), suppose I want to have some family time on Sunday after worship engaged in a game of Monopoly. From what I am hearing from some folks (I am sure well-intended) is that this is not honoring to God on the Sabbath because our thoughts are not focused on Him. What I am having a hard time with, and please help me to understand, is how can having some quality time with my family not be honoring toward God? Is the idea that in advance preparation for the Sabbath I should get my family game-playing time done between Monday and Saturday?

To me, it just seems too rigid to say we have to abstain from anything and everything that takes even one iota of our focus away from God on the Sabbath; otherwise we need to confess and repent. It's almost akin to the passage from 1 Thes. 5 that we should pray without ceasing. That's an imperative, right? I know it doesn't mean we should literally be on our knees 24/7 in prayer, but is to represent an attitude and awareness of God at all times. Yet I'm sure we even fail to keep this. Are we all confessing and repenting of this sin?

(Again, please don't take my comments as disrespectful or flippant. If I appear hyperbolic, it's solely for the sake of argument, not to denigrate or belittle anyone's practice).

I was responding to this:

If I don't believe that sex on the Sabbath causes me to sin, and I don't think throwing a frisbee causes me to sin, am I wrong on both accounts?

Will Christ cease to be the husband of His bride in heaven?

__________________
Patrick
MDiv, RTS Jackson
Pastor, Grace Presbyterian Church (OPC), Lisbon, NY

"He does well, that discourses of Christ; but he does infinitely better, that by experimental knowledge, feeds and lives on Christ." Thomas Brooks.
"Let us not please ourselves that we have deep understandings, but let us shew our understandings by our practice." Richard Sibbes

If you want to discuss the nuances of what the Puritans meant by the word 'recreation' then go ahead. In fact, I think that gets to the heart of the matter of the OP.

Its rigidity is dependent on your view of what takes our focus away from God.

Is this any different on the Sabbath? Shouldn't everything we do on every day of the week be to the glory of God? If you cannot watch football to the glory of God, then it should be avoided on every day of the week.

You seem to have convinced yourself that watching football on Sunday is OK even though it hinders you from glorifying God. But the Bible says all things that hinder you from glorifying God are to be avoided.

Friend, I think this is an unwarranted leap. Where did I give even the slightest impression that I "have convinced [my]self that watching football on Sunday is OK even though it hinders you from glorifying God?" Are you privy to my inner dialogue?

Here is part of my original response to this thread:

I have never skipped going to church to watch a football game, and this was true even before I had the DVR. If (when) I watch football on Sunday, it's always worked around church activities on Sunday. Now if you want to critique my attitude when I watch football (particularly Bears games) that's a different point entirely; and I stand rebuked!

However, your comment is completely out of line and unsupported given what I have revealed on this board and in this thread.

Carl, this is an important question, and is necessary for understanding the Reformed position on the Sabbath. There is a difference between honoring God by doing "God-honoring things" (e.g., living righteously, doing good deeds, exemplifying familial relationships, etc.) and honoring God with specific, stated acts of worship.

The operative word is "quality." What constitutes "quality" time with family on a day set aside from common to a holy use? I believe Isaiah 58:13 provides the answer to that question.

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Yours sincerely,


"Illum oportet crescere me autem minui."

KMK,

I think you're missing a key concept that Westminster Sabbatarians insist on. The nature of the day is such that things which are quite acceptable on other days are not acceptable on that day. We draw that from Isaiah 58. We're allowed to think our own thoughts, speak our own words and "go our own way" (i.e. non-sinful thoughts, words, and ways) on other days, but the Sabbath is special. God has hallowed it. He's made it different. He's made it for Himself.

You said...

I assumed you were including watching NFL football as one of the things that takes 'even one iota' of your focus away from God. If it is not, could you give us an example of what is.

Amen, brother. I am not arguing that watching football on the Sabbath is sin. I am arguing that anything that cannot be done to the glory of God should be avoided, regardless of the day.

KMK,

I actually would argue that watching football on the Sabbath is a sin (as is reading the Sunday paper, or going out to lunch after church) I think keeping the Sabbath in its purity is a lot like Christ's command not to look on any woman lustfully. It shows how lofty is God's standard and how painfully far we fall from it.

However I would agree that anything that cannot be done to the glory of God ought not be done at all.

Blessings,

I don't know if the Puritans would have viewed conjugal relations as a mere unnecessary "recreation" or a recreation at all? They may well have viewed it as more important than a game of frisbee or swingball, and therefore (at least sometimes) necessary.
Swingball, TV, video games, frisbee, NFL, radio, Sunday newspapers, shopping for clothes and electrical goods, visiting restaurants, etc, etc, are never necessities.

Having said that if proper preparation has not been made for the Sabbath, it may be necessary to buy one or two things sometimes e.g. drugs, toilet roll, milk, tea.

And when on holiday it may be necessary to use a restaurant. It may also be necessary to use public transport to get to church; that was the issue that John Murray left my old denomination, the FPCoS, over.

Re sexual intimacy, remember that the Bible calls it "becoming one flesh", "knowledge" , and the Apostle Paul in I Corinthians says that husbands and wives if they agree to desist for a time for spiritual reasons (maybe as an adjunct to fasting and prayer?) should not put themselves into temptation by desisting for too long.

Re the earlier point about Jonathan Edwards not laughing on the Sabbath, he may have been tretating the Sabbath as a day of mourning and fasting and solemnity like the Old Testament Day of Atonement, which is the only day on which such fasting was mandated in the Bible.

If Edwards was prescribing for everyone that they should never laugh on the Sabbath, that would be a clear addition to the law.

Jesus said,

"Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." (Matt 11:28-30, ESV)

The Apostle John said,

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome".(I John 5:3, ESV)

There is no doubt that the Sabbath is a gracious blessing and gift of God, as are the other Commandments, but in a special sense.

Faith in Christ is likened to resting in Him in the rest that He already enjoys in its fulness from His earthly work, but one day a week we are commanded and invited to enter and enjoy that rest in a special way, just as Adam and Eve did regarding God's work of creation.

We haven't yet entered the new eschatalogical order in its fulness (we're in the "already, not yet"), which is typified by the perfectly-numbered and specially-revealed Seven Day Week and the Sabbath, so we need the Sabbath Day until the Eschaton. See Hebrews 3 and 4. Each passing Sabbath is a stepping-stone to Glory.

I wasn't specifically referring to watching football or even arguing for it. I think if you read the entirety of the post from which you extracted that quote, you will see that I specifically mentioned that I was being intentionally hyperbolic for the sake of argument.

So, again for the sake of argument, if I on the Sabbath am taking a walk with my wife and we talk about my daughter's school choir concert on Wednesday, then according to your view (or more precisely, the Puritan/Westminsterian view) of the Sabbath, I am guilty of breaking the Sabbath and as such I ought to confess and repent at the end of the day.

Since you presumably adhere to said view, do you confess and repent of your failure to devote every single thought, word and deed to the glory of God on the Sabbath at the end of the day? Are you specific in naming every single instance where your thoughts wandered from the majesty of God on Sunday? I just want to be clear that if people are preposing this view, are they being consistent?

Speaking personally as one who is new to the Reformed faith, I will be the first to admit that I have much to learn (and un-learn) regarding the Sabbath and its observance. Quite frankly, most of what is being said here I wasn't taught. As I look to my own practices, I see much that I should consider changing. With that said, the view your'e espousing, friend, still seems too rigid to me. I think it would be even MORE distracting for me to make sure that every thought, word and deed was focused on the glory and majesty of God. In other words, I would be so focused on focusing my thoughts that I would fail to focus on God Himself (missing the forest for the trees).

Maybe it's legend, but I recall that before Luther converted, he was so consumed with the law of God that he missed the grace of God. He would literally spend hours each day in the confessional confessing every conceivable sin, and would agonize until the next day if he had left one out. I even remember that scene in the movie "Luther" in which his mentor scolded him for not having anything interesting to confess. I could be verrrrry wrong (am I'm sure some helpful PB member will point that out), but I don't think God intended us to be "Little Luthers." By that I mean so consumed with following the revealed will of God that we lose focus on God. I am by no means advocating licentiousness or antinomianism, but methinks we go too far.

But, hey, maybe you're much better at it than I...

You're right- it can be a challenge to focus one's thoughts on the Lord. We can only do so imperfectly- but, by God's grace we can try.

Few things reveal our sin than our resentment toward God at having to give "our" time (and "our" thoughts) over toward God for a whole day.

Practically, one of the ways to do this is by what our Confession summarizes the doctrine of Scripture to teach-

prepare in advance for the sabbath.

Things like getting ordinary errands and distractions out of the way the night before in preparation and limiting, to the extent you can, interferences on the day itself.

One other thing that is practically helpful,

Try to get a good night's rest the night before, and begin the day, early in the quiet time of morning, with reading and meditating on God's Word. Desperately pray for grace to keep His Fourth Commandment and to experience the blessing that comes from obedience.

Again, you seem to imply that you believe taking a walk with your wife takes 'even one iota' of your focus away from God and therefore the Puritans wouldn't approve. If you think taking a walk with your wife, or talking about your daughter are things that take your focus away from God, then I think you are too rigid with yourself. It is hard to think of activities more glorifying to God than exercising the body God gave you while communing with the wife God gave you surrounded by the creation God gave you.

As to the specifics of whether said activities give glory to God on the Sabbath, I will leave you to your own conscience and the counsel of your elders. (Which, BTW, I believe is more valuable to you than anything said by anonymous people on an internet discussion board.)

Whether or not I adhere to the view of the Puritans is not relevant. If my views are different than the Puritans it would not be appropriate for me to advocate those differences here.

As for repentance, yes I have much of which to repent. Including, a couple of Sundays ago, when, in a moment of weakness, I checked on the progress of an Angels playoff game, found out the Angels were getting crushed and it put me in a sour mood for the rest of the day.

I answered wrong on the poll. I guess I lean more towards the Continental view. I thought the Continental view did not regard any specific day to be kept holy unto the Lord. Like Calvin, I enjoy lawn bowling, especially with my daughter on nice days in the backyard. I believe that one day should be kept holy unto the Lord as the Christian Sabbath, and that on the Lord's Day because it is the Scriptural day for New Testament public worship. While I refrain from work, except when necessary (which is extremely rare) and attend our morning and evening services (I preach at our early service) I enjoy having fun with my family on the Lord's Day. This sometimes means lawn bowling, horseshoes, or some other family activity. Who can tell me in the Bible where it says that family fun is to be excluded on the Lord's day? Isaiah 58 does is not explicit enough.

__________________
Rev. Andy Eppard
Associate Minister
First Cumberland Presbyterian Church
Springfield, MO