Someone has approached my wife regarding using our baby as "baby Jesus" in the Christmas play this year.

My first reaction is to take exception. I feel as if this is a violation of the 2nd Commandment and as a result, do not want my child to be used. Of course, I can stymie the issue and refuse to let my child be used in such a capacity. This will probably create an issue and anger someone at some point, and I'll probably be seen as trying to frustrate some evangelistic goal. However, I just flat think it's breaking the Law.

My question is twofold:

1. Am I right in my thinking and conviction?

2. Is it worth frustrating the play over and possibly angering someone along the way?

__________________
Andrew DeShazo
Husband of Kathryn
Father of Phillip-Giles B. DeShazo
Deacon
Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"From out of the depth of unbroken Infinfity arose the Question, "Who am I?" And to that Question there is the answer, "I am God!" -Meher Baba, died 1969.

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Christ, died 33 AD, ressurected three days later.

IMO, yes.


IMO, yes.

__________________
Ronda Rush
Church of the Redeemer
Independent Reformed
California


" . . .It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.'" Matthew 4:4

I think you're right. Especially if it is troubling your conscience.

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Willie Grills
Trinity Presbyterian Church
OPC
Huntington, WV

it's your thinking and your conviction, so of course you're right! Why would someone get frustrated? It's your child. You don't have to give a reason; just say you would rather your baby not do it. Simple enough.

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Andrew S.
Covenant Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Abilene,TX

Yes, and yes. Wouldn't you be in violation of your vows as an ARP deacon? I'm aware that many ARP churches ignore this, but isn't the WCF pretty clear?

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Anna
Wife of Tim/Marrow Man
Louisville, KY
Member of Midlane Park Presbyterian (Associate Reformed Presbyterian)

1. Yes.
2. Yes.

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
Facebook - The Calvinist Vent
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It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

1 = No reason to compromise your beliefs

2 - Why should anyone get angry == they have plenty of time to buy a plastic doll if they need one.

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Edward
Deacon
PCA
Texas

A. Do you think that putting your baby in a play as "baby Jesus" violates the second commandment? Then the matter is settled. No one should force you to go against the commandment or against your own conscience. It's not loving or Christian.

B. It doesn't matter if someone gets angry. Do what is right. BTW--breaking the commandments cannot in any way be construed as an "evangelistic opportunity."

__________________
Steven J. Carr (Sven)
http://beholdingthebeauty.blogspot.com/
Eagan, MN
PCA
"Weak is the effort of my heart / And cold my warmest thought / But when I see thee as thou art / I'll praise thee as I ought."--John Newton
Trophy Wife/Arm Candy: Crystal Ann Children: Steven Jr. and Hannah Grace

__________________
James Helbert, Wytheville, VA
Providence Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCUS
TheBibleAlone.com / The Edinburgh Inn
"Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?” - Zechariah 3:2

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Double yes.

__________________
Tim Phillips
Pastor, Midlane Park Presbyterian Church (ARP)
Louisville, KY
Husband of Scottish Lass
My Blog: Gairney Bridge
My Facebook/My Avatar

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"Wherever the gospel is preached, it is as if God Himself came into the midst of us." ~ John Calvin

No matter what, I do not think you should violate your conscience. (Although I am not necessarily as stringent in my interpretation of the 2nd commandment.) If I asked someone to use their baby in a Christmas play, I would not be at all offended if they said no out of conviction - in fact, I would probably apologize for asking.

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Kathleen M
nondenominational
Montana

A. 109 of the Larger Catechism is instructive, particularly:

"The sins forbidden in the second commandment are... the making any representation of God, of all or any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature whatsoever..."

Both our sons were "baby Jesus" in the past. We would not do that now, based on our current understanding of Scripture.

Anyway, it was a pain. I had to be Mary because the babies wouldn't "settle" with a nervous preteen, for some reason.That meant Alan had to be Joseph. Even as Methodists we thought that was a three-ring circus. Also, our second son was several months old and didn't want to stay put. It was funny, but worship is not the place for funny. We ended up not having more children, otherwise we would have said, "NO!" the next time.

A wad of blankets works fine, it there must be a reenactment.

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~Carolyn Martinson~
Covenant Presbyterian - OPC (Baldwin, WI)
River Falls, WI

Brother:

Yes you are correct with regards to the first issue but I would encourage you to use this as an opportunity to teach, rather than just to reject the request.

Here is something I wrote on the general issue you are facing if you would like to use it:

__________________
Rev. Daniel Kok
Pastor of Grace Reformed Church (URCNA)
Leduc, Alberta CANADA

"What sort of pledge and how great is this of love towards us! Christ lives for us not for himself!"
John Calvin, Commentary on the Hebrews (7:25)

1:Yes

2:Yes

__________________
Martin - Reformed
Husband to the most godly, honorable and loyal wife Line
Searching for a Church
Webpage www.5solas.dk
Free Online Reformed Seminary - http://www.tnars.net
Soli Deo Gloria

1. Yes

2. Yes

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Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, Licentiate, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
Member Fairmount ARP Church
Pittsburgh, PA

Deo Vindice

1) To go against liberty of your own conscience would be a sin.
2) To break the second commandment would be a sin.
3) The possibility of you upsetting people to not break the second commandment is not a sin. Being a Christian and following in holiness after the Lord is offensive to people. The question here is between man-pleasing and God-pleasing, and following your conscience.

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Rev. Andrew J. Barnes
Husband of Dena
Father of Oliver
Master of Bruce
Pastor of Tchula Presbyterian Church

What can I say, I like blogs!

I would just say "No, I don't think that would work for us." And be done with it. If someone needs to know why, tell them. (I can't imagine someone pressing it, though.)

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Shalom,
jessi
PCA
Steelers fan exiled to Virginia


“Whatever your heart clings to and confides in, that is really your God.”
Martin Luther

You are 100% correct in your thinking, I believe. In no way should you allow your baby to be used in this way, period.

If they get angry over this then it is their fault, and you have no responsibility for their being angry.

You are following conscience with regard to the Law of God - and NOBODY has the right to take any offense whatsoever. They might disagree with you, and that should be something one can do without getting angry.

__________________
Todd K. Pedlar
member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA
http://inprincipiodeus.solideogloria.com
http://puritanwisdom.blogspot.com

"As God did not at first choose you because you were high, He will not now forsake you because you are low."
John Flavel in Keeping the Heart



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Maybe I've had different experiences in churches, but I can't imagine someone not pressing it.

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Jeremy Gage
First Baptist Church
Durham, NC

"No heart can conceive that treasury of mercies which lies in this one privilege, in having liberty and ability to approach unto God at all times, according to his mind and will." - John Owen

And at any rate, I think it really would be best if you *did* explain why, rather than just say "sorry, we can't". It's not inappropriate to explain your reasoning, especially given your status as a deacon. (I'd almost go so far as to say that it would be inappropriate NOT to give your reasons, actually)

Why in an ARP church are they attempting to break the 2nd commandment anyway?

Using a plastic doll if just as bad as using a baby, and probably even worse. I would say have nothing to do with it and oppose such an idolotrous play.

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Mike
London City Presbyterian Church
London
England

"Surely, we wish to be orthodox, but we must first learn what real orthodoxy is. Surely, we wish to be progressive, but we must first have a basis to progress from."

I can go to a PCA church in Memphis and find several commandment and standard violations. No denomination or church is immune.

Agreed.

I wouldn't disagree with that, I mean why isn't something done. Why isn't something said...

If you want to travel down to little ole Tchula, you are welcome anytime. We try to follow (we fail, but we try) the Confession as best we can because we believe it to be an accurate summary of Scripture.

My sister and I acted as Joseph and Mary at one of those things. The church was really into it, with live animals, and a crucifixion of the pastor (pretending to be Christ). Just say no, if it bothers you.

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Matt
Reformed Baptist
Christ Community Church

The main reason (imho) why these things exist in Reformed churches is because too many folks are ignorant of the Standards and their implications. Don't the Dutch Reformed make members sign a piece of paper saying that the 3 Forms are their own confession? If so, we could learn a lot from them.

I think it's flat ignorance. People don't actually read the Confession, they're just members because their parents were, as were theirs, and so on.

FYI. On the general Westminsterian proscription of picturing Christ, see the following forthcoming in The Confessional Presbyterian 5 (should be going to the printer next week, DV):
David VanDrunen, "Pictures of Jesus And the Sovereignty of Divine Revelation: Recent Literature and a Defense of the Confessional Reformed View", 214-228. This is a good article; it is succinct yet extensively documented (i.e. lots of sources). Also, because one finds this rather novel view out there denying LC 109 prohibits making pictures of Christ's body, the editor contributed a very short squib, "The Intent of Larger Catechism 109 Regarding Pictures of Christ's Humanity".

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Chris Coldwell, Lakewood Presbyterian Church (PCA), Dallas, Texas.
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The Regulative Principle: The Scriptures are the “only infallible rule of faith and practice, no rite or ceremony ought to have a place in the public worship of God, which is not warranted in Scripture, either by direct precept or example, or by good and sufficient inference” (Samuel Miller).

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I should have added, "subscribe now" if you have not done so!
The Confessional Presbyterian

Do you get to play God the Father?

I think that it is clear in the WCF/WLC that this is a violation of the 2nd commandment. I would suggest using this as an opportunity to TEACH the person who has approached you what our standards say and what it means to be confessional. It does not have to be condemning or even condescending- just use it as an opportunity to teach what the Word says.... in love.

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Pastor Nathan Eshelman, Los Angeles, CA
Reformed Presbyterian Church
PRESBYTERIAN THOUGHTS
Los Angeles Reformed Presbyterian Church
RPCLA Sermons Online
Puritan Reformed Seminary

That is only for officebearers (in the churches I have been familiar with, anyhow...)

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Bert Mulder
Elder of the First Protestant Reformed Church of Edmonton
Edmonton Alberta Canada

I don't disagree with you. But the question wasn't whether or not the church should violate the commandment, it was whether one should risk angering them by refusing to facilitate the violation. And I didn't see a significant risk of angering them that needs to even be considered.

For some reason the people who have posted on this thread are a little "waffley"...I would have expected a more resounding YES & YES from the people of this board.

Btw, YES and YES.

__________________
soli Deo gloria!
~Nicholas~ Ordained Pastor
Member, Fulton PCA; GPTS Student
Christians are like snow covered dung; it is the purity of the covering which the Father sees. -Luther-
There is nothing more ugly than a Christian orthodoxy without understanding or without compassion.
-Francis Schaeffer-

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Michael Tremmel
attending Christ Reformed Baptist Church
Hales Corners, WI.

Isaiah 46:5-11

I have set the Lord always before me; because he is at my right hand, I shall not be shaken. Ps.16:8 ESV

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. 1 Cor.15:10a ESV

Praecepta docent, exempla movent (precepts teach, but examples move)

Was it an elder from your church who asked? Or someone from the community?

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http://www.villagecommunitychurch.org/


"Preparing a sermon is like cooking a meal. You need pots and pans and utensils, but you don't bring them out to the table where people are eating." Derek Thomas


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I think you should stick with your conscience and have good concerns. But at the risk of being "waffley," let's at least ask two things:

1. Is there is a difference between making an image of God for the purpose of worshiping that image, versus using a human to represent Jesus for the purpose of communicating and celebrating the incarnation?

2. It's clearly wrong to depict God as any created thing since he is above this. No depiction could be accurate. But now the Son has taken on human form. Since God himself has chosen to reveal himself to us in this form -- since Jesus IS human -- is it equally wrong to depict Jesus using some generalized human figure?

There's wisdom in staying far from sin here. But I'd say the strongest argument against acting out the role of Jesus, or any Bible story, is that God's Word and our record of his Son have come to us in inspired, inerrant written form. Turning them into a stage production inevitably messes with the God-given account.

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Jack K.
PCA, worshiping with some fine Baptists in Colorado

1. I would humbly suggest this view might imply that Scripture is not sufficient.
2. Christ now reigns in heaven, and we are not to make images of that which is in heaven, right? He also certainly didn't stay a baby, which would be the portrayal here.

1. I feel that attempting to step outside God's chosen way for communicating the reality of His Son to us is presumption on our part. I'm also inclined to believe from God's Word that using a human to represent the incarnate Son of God, existent from eternity and begotten from God the Father, Savior of His people, and the One who sits at God's right hand is blasphemy at the very least.

I think the same principle was at play when Christ pointed out the Pharisee's practice of absolving one from their responsibility of honoring their father and mother by declaring anything they would have gained from them is "given to God". The practice served to completely vacate God's command. I'm sure the Pharisees thought they were being very religious by provided an alternative to following God's very strict command that "honored" God. The problem was they presumed that their own notions of what was honoring actually honored God.

In reality, obeying what God has said honors Him; not making up an easier rule that one thinks still honors Him. Communicating in the way God has said establishes His purposes; not making up our own way.

2. Again, I'm convinced from God's Word that this is wrong. Christ incarnated as a perfect human in all respects. Using an imperfect human to represent Him is not only insufficient, but a farce and a lie. He has taken human form, but it is a particular human form and God commands us that we should not reproduce it, as He is God.