Thread: Pharisaism and the PB

Originally Posted by he beholds

Originally Posted by Knoxienne

Originally Posted by Augusta

The fact that this is a reformed board should prevent someone from jumping to the conclusion that people here are trying to work for salvation. It is the defining principle of Calvinism that we cannot earn our salvation. The charitable conclusion would be that they are examining themselves to see if they are offending God in word or deed. That they want to be more like Jesus. That they love God's law and meditate on it day and night. Anyone who mocks that kind of searching of the scriptures should be suspect in this arena and not the other way around.

Amen. Phariseeism and legalism is teaching that you're not justified unless you do "such and such". These terms (like sooooooo many others) have been perverted and people use them to describe anyone who separates themselves from certain things in order to live a holy life.

I had a great conversation with our pastor's wife once about issues Christians differ about which usually cause these accusations to fly. She said that people who abstain from Christmas, Harry Potter books, women's pants, movies, etc., etc., are simply trying to live holy lives. They are saved and they want to live a holy life unto the Lord and please the God who has saved them. They should be encouraged, not put down and judged. Nor should we put down and judge people who see these areas differently and assume they don't care anything about living the Christian life.

My brothers and sisters may see things differently from me, but God's accepted them, and so must I. They have my prayers when they ask for them, my fellowship, my charity or anything else they need.

I totally, totally agree with everything you've said on this thread, and this is not a disagreement, BUT, I think sometimes it is forgotten that those who do wear pants, have Christmas, Harry Potter books, movies, etc., etc., are also simply trying to live holy lives. They too, "are saved and they want to live a holy life unto the Lord and please the God who has saved them. They should be encouraged, not put down and judged."
I know you wrote a sort of disclaimer by saying nor should we judge the opposing side, but in arguments like this, it is often forgotten that BOTH sides are simply hoping to please the Lord and live unto him!
I know you weren't saying that, but I wanted to stick up for those of us who are not as often seen as having holiness as a motive because we may not appear to separate ourselves from the world in such an outwardly fashion. Our desires for holiness is also at the core of our renewed being.

We can and all do agree that "Man looks at the outward appearance but the Lord looks at the heart."

OOT, but very good point, Sister Jessi.

Another thing to point out is that oftentimes big "abstainers" tend to have little "guilty" pleasures with other things - for instance, not reading Harry Potter because of an occultic background or struggle in that area, but being okay with PG 13 movies, or something else. They're (we're ) having some fun in there somewhere. You just have to know where to look.

Originally Posted by ColdSilverMoon

Originally Posted by NaphtaliPress

Here is a big do and do not list which happens to be part of most Presbyterian churches' doctrinal statements.

Larger Catechism Q&A 99 through Q&A 148.

Exactly. After all, the Decalogue is a list....

Disclaimer: I agree with both of you, so please don't take this a disagreement/criticism of your posts.

As someone who came out of a fundamentalist church, I have a visceral reaction to the phrase "list of rules." I associate it with the long lists of extra-biblical rules that I was expected to keep while I was in high school in order to be thought of as a "good Christian girl." Having (thank heaven) come out of that and now relying on God's grace rather than my own works, I shy away from the idea of creating lists of do's and don't's.

Of course, God does provide us with "lists of rules" in the Bible. But I think that this phrase can, understandably, cause some people, myself among them, to stumble. For the sake of others, I think it can be wise to clarify that these rules are not extra-biblical and that following these rules is not what saves us. I know this probably seems extraordinarily obvious to most PB members, but its not always obvious to everyone! When I first came here and saw all of the lists and advice that people freely gave out, I thought maybe I needed to leave. It took me a while to figure out that the PBers weren't claiming that everyone had to do these things or even that by doing these things one would be a "better" Christian. A lot of my misunderstanding was my relative newness to reformed thought, but I think that by being careful of our words and language, we can avoid a lot of confusion and misunderstanding about our intentions and our understanding of Scripture.

Originally Posted by Montanablue

Originally Posted by ColdSilverMoon

Originally Posted by NaphtaliPress

Here is a big do and do not list which happens to be part of most Presbyterian churches' doctrinal statements.

Larger Catechism Q&A 99 through Q&A 148.

Exactly. After all, the Decalogue is a list....

Disclaimer: I agree with both of you, so please don't take this a disagreement/criticism of your posts.

As someone who came out of a fundamentalist church, I have a visceral reaction to the phrase "list of rules." I associate it with the long lists of extra-biblical rules that I was expected to keep while I was in high school in order to be thought of as a "good Christian girl." Having (thank heaven) come out of that and now relying on God's grace rather than my own works, I shy away from the idea of creating lists of do's and don't's.

Of course, God does provide us with "lists of rules" in the Bible. But I think that this phrase can, understandably, cause some people, myself among them, to stumble. For the sake of others, I think it can be wise to clarify that these rules are not extra-biblical and that following these rules is not what saves us. I know this probably seems extraordinarily obvious to most PB members, but its not always obvious to everyone! When I first came here and saw all of the lists and advice that people freely gave out, I thought maybe I needed to leave. It took me a while to figure out that the PBers weren't claiming that everyone had to do these things or even that by doing these things one would be a "better" Christian. A lot of my misunderstanding was my relative newness to reformed thought, but I think that by being careful of our words and language, we can avoid a lot of confusion and misunderstanding about our intentions and our understanding of Scripture.

I'm so glad you stayed! The key is love. Love is a doctrine and it's on the list. And if we don't have it we can forget the rest of it.

I am also glad I stayed! After hanging around for a while, I realized that I was misunderstanding the point of many of the posts and reading them from my own (biased) subject position.

On this board I recently asked a person why they thought something was a sin that they had said in a post was a sin. I was told, "Is this not a Confessional board? Could I be in the PCA and never read the WCF?" I started another thread asking the same question and no one thaught it was a sin. The person read the thread because he started another thread based on a quote in the thread I started. He did not defend his position on the thread I started even though the first reaction was to question my understanding of sin.

What should we call that type of behavior? Because more then a few people do hit and run post on new board members who might not be as well read on the confessions. This time I was right but even if I was wrong I think we should have a more paitent spirit.

Originally Posted by Montanablue

I am also glad I stayed! After hanging around for a while, I realized that I was misunderstanding the point of many of the posts and reading them from my own (biased) subject position.

I think another thing we do (I'm trying not to be like this) is interpret things people say subjectively - Because I struggle with selfishness, I tend to think that someone's rejection of my view is a rejection of me - (me! me! me! it's all about me!) And that's really ridiculous! I need to biblically remind myself that I can still disagree with someone and love/accept them and be loved/accepted by them anyway.

Originally Posted by Knoxienne

Originally Posted by Montanablue

I am also glad I stayed! After hanging around for a while, I realized that I was misunderstanding the point of many of the posts and reading them from my own (biased) subject position.

I think another thing we do (I'm trying not to be like this) is interpret things people say subjectively - Because I struggle with selfishness, I tend to think that someone's rejection of my view is a rejection of me - (me! me! me! it's all about me!) And that's really ridiculous! I need to biblically remind myself that I can still disagree with someone and love/accept them and be loved/accepted by them anyway.

And sometimes the subjectiveness is due to us being limited to our own experience and not actually knowing the other person. I've been guilty of the same.

AHHHHHHH! Still no "Thanks" button! But thanks to JC and Toni.

Originally Posted by Knoxienne

Originally Posted by Montanablue

Originally Posted by ColdSilverMoon

Exactly. After all, the Decalogue is a list....

Disclaimer: I agree with both of you, so please don't take this a disagreement/criticism of your posts.

As someone who came out of a fundamentalist church, I have a visceral reaction to the phrase "list of rules." I associate it with the long lists of extra-biblical rules that I was expected to keep while I was in high school in order to be thought of as a "good Christian girl." Having (thank heaven) come out of that and now relying on God's grace rather than my own works, I shy away from the idea of creating lists of do's and don't's.

Of course, God does provide us with "lists of rules" in the Bible. But I think that this phrase can, understandably, cause some people, myself among them, to stumble. For the sake of others, I think it can be wise to clarify that these rules are not extra-biblical and that following these rules is not what saves us. I know this probably seems extraordinarily obvious to most PB members, but its not always obvious to everyone! When I first came here and saw all of the lists and advice that people freely gave out, I thought maybe I needed to leave. It took me a while to figure out that the PBers weren't claiming that everyone had to do these things or even that by doing these things one would be a "better" Christian. A lot of my misunderstanding was my relative newness to reformed thought, but I think that by being careful of our words and language, we can avoid a lot of confusion and misunderstanding about our intentions and our understanding of Scripture.

I'm so glad you stayed! The key is love. Love is a doctrine and it's on the list. And if we don't have it we can forget the rest of it.

Toni this is so important!! And Kathleen I am so glad you stayed also. We are all in process and we all have different backgrounds to overcome. I was not in a super fundamentalist background so I didn't have that same struggle. Although 5 yrs ago I would have looked askance at some of the things that I now see as so important. We have none of us "arrived" and we have all at some point in our lives been on a different side of many arguments here than we are now.

I think this is why God so stressed that we have love and patience with on another. This is one of the things I have learned while here from some quality teachers and loving brethren, by example.

Originally Posted by NaphtaliPress
Here is a big do and do not list which happens to be part of most Presbyterian churches' doctrinal statements.

Larger Catechism Q&A 99 through Q&A 148.

Exactly. After all, the Decalogue is a list....

...women not working outside of the house, exclusive Psalm singing, tithing, having a visual cross, birth control, Recieved Text...

Originally Posted by puritanpilgrim

Originally Posted by NaphtaliPress
Here is a big do and do not list which happens to be part of most Presbyterian churches' doctrinal statements.

Larger Catechism Q&A 99 through Q&A 148.

Exactly. After all, the Decalogue is a list....

...women not working outside of the house, exclusive Psalm singing, tithing, having a visual cross, birth control, Recieved Text...

ooooh. ouch.

Many years ago when I was living in France, I visited the well-known basilica "Sacre' Coeur". The church sits on the highest point in Paris at Montmartre (Mount of Martyrs). Prior to the construction of the basilica, Montmartre was a pilgrimage site where people came to honor and pray for those who were martyred for their faith.

Sacre' Coeur is built of travertine, a bright white stone. On the occasion of my visit, it was a beautiful day, the sky was a deep, clear blue and the sun was shining brightly. The church appeared to be pure white with the sun beaming on it.

As I entered the huge structure I felt overwhelmed by the darkness. I stood there for some time waiting for my eyes to adjust when I noticed that the place was nearly empty except for a few visitors and three or four pilgrims . The windows which were quite dirty did not seem to allow any light to enter. It was cold and felt hollow. I didn't stay long.

When I stepped out into the sunlight, I felt overwhelmed by the warmth and brightness. It felt so good. As I walked away from Sacre' Coeur stepping over and around the crowds who were basking in the warmth of the day on the steps that led up the church, a verse came to mind.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Matthew 23:27

I was struck in my heart, because I knew the point the Spirit of God was making to me by that verse. It doesn't matter how clean and beautiful you look on the outside if your inside is so black no one, not even you can stand to be there.

That to me describes a pharisee, I have been a pharisee, I am guilty today of being a pharisee, and I will probably be guilty of being a pharisee in the future. Being a pharisee is matter of the heart. Do I pride myself in doing things in the right way? Do I turn a downward eye to my fellow believer, because he doesn't do things the way I do? Or do I turn a downard eye to my fellow believer because he "thinks he's so spiritual"?

Outward appearances mean absolutely nothing, if the heart is evil. The fact be known, everyone on this board, including me is guilty of legalism in some form or another every day. The minute we take our eyes off our Lord and start living our lives not relying on His strength and power, we are guilty of being pharisees.

Want to meet a pharisee? We need only look in the mirror.

Recommended reading: The Pharisees' Guide to Total Holiness by William L. Coleman.

Here's the bottom line:

I don't want to be a Pharisee
Because they're not fair, you see?

Originally Posted by he beholds

Originally Posted by Knoxienne

Originally Posted by Augusta

The fact that this is a reformed board should prevent someone from jumping to the conclusion that people here are trying to work for salvation. It is the defining principle of Calvinism that we cannot earn our salvation. The charitable conclusion would be that they are examining themselves to see if they are offending God in word or deed. That they want to be more like Jesus. That they love God's law and meditate on it day and night. Anyone who mocks that kind of searching of the scriptures should be suspect in this arena and not the other way around.

Amen. Phariseeism and legalism is teaching that you're not justified unless you do "such and such". These terms (like sooooooo many others) have been perverted and people use them to describe anyone who separates themselves from certain things in order to live a holy life.

I had a great conversation with our pastor's wife once about issues Christians differ about which usually cause these accusations to fly. She said that people who abstain from Christmas, Harry Potter books, women's pants, movies, etc., etc., are simply trying to live holy lives. They are saved and they want to live a holy life unto the Lord and please the God who has saved them. They should be encouraged, not put down and judged. Nor should we put down and judge people who see these areas differently and assume they don't care anything about living the Christian life.

My brothers and sisters may see things differently from me, but God's accepted them, and so must I. They have my prayers when they ask for them, my fellowship, my charity or anything else they need.

I totally, totally agree with everything you've said on this thread, and this is not a disagreement, BUT, I think sometimes it is forgotten that those who do wear pants, have Christmas, Harry Potter books, movies, etc., etc., are also simply trying to live holy lives. They too, "are saved and they want to live a holy life unto the Lord and please the God who has saved them. They should be encouraged, not put down and judged."
I know you wrote a sort of disclaimer by saying nor should we judge the opposing side, but in arguments like this, it is often forgotten that BOTH sides are simply hoping to please the Lord and live unto him!
I know you weren't saying that, but I wanted to stick up for those of us who are not as often seen as having holiness as a motive because we may not appear to separate ourselves from the world in such an outwardly fashion. Our desires for holiness is also at the core of our renewed being.

We can and all do agree that "Man looks at the outward appearance but the Lord looks at the heart."

Excellent post.

Not to mention I have seen several members here take position in certain issues that aren't even addressed in the confessions and run with it as a biblical basis when scripture or the confessions doesn't present a clear view of this. I wont speak of these issues because I don't want to turn this into a war or derail the thread. Although I see the reasoning as to why take these positions is seems like man made rules pressed up on us without scriptural warrant like many members here it made feel like I was back on the old fundamentalism.

Originally Posted by JBaldwin

Many years ago when I was living in France, I visited the well-known basilica "Sacre' Coeur". The church sits on the highest point in Paris at Montmartre (Mount of Martyrs). Prior to the construction of the basilica, Montmartre was a pilgrimage site where people came to honor and pray for those who were martyred for their faith.

Sacre' Coeur is built of travertine, a bright white stone. On the occasion of my visit, it was a beautiful day, the sky was a deep, clear blue and the sun was shining brightly. The church appeared to be pure white with the sun beaming on it.

As I entered the huge structure I felt overwhelmed by the darkness. I stood there for some time waiting for my eyes to adjust when I noticed that the place was nearly empty except for a few visitors and three or four pilgrims . The windows which were quite dirty did not seem to allow any light to enter. It was cold and felt hollow. I didn't stay long.

When I stepped out into the sunlight, I felt overwhelmed by the warmth and brightness. It felt so good. As I walked away from Sacre' Coeur stepping over and around the crowds who were basking in the warmth of the day on the steps that led up the church, a verse came to mind.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Matthew 23:27

I was struck in my heart, because I knew the point the Spirit of God was making to me by that verse. It doesn't matter how clean and beautiful you look on the outside if your inside is so black no one, not even you can stand to be there.

That to me describes a pharisee, I have been a pharisee, I am guilty today of being a pharisee, and I will probably be guilty of being a pharisee in the future. Being a pharisee is matter of the heart. Do I pride myself in doing things in the right way? Do I turn a downward eye to my fellow believer, because he doesn't do things the way I do? Or do I turn a downard eye to my fellow believer because he "thinks he's so spiritual"?

Outward appearances mean absolutely nothing, if the heart is evil. The fact be known, everyone on this board, including me is guilty of legalism in some form or another every day. The minute we take our eyes off our Lord and start living our lives not relying on His strength and power, we are guilty of being pharisees.

Want to meet a pharisee? We need only look in the mirror.

This is a good point lest we pat ourselves on the back but we also need to remind ourselves that there is a matter of intent here. We are slaves to Christ and not to unrighteousness if we have believed upon Him. We do the things we do not want to do but that is not who we are. Thus, I would say the man I am trying to mortify tries to self-justify and treat the Law in a way toward that end. Yet, who I am as a Christian, does not stop using the Law in its principle use because I'm afraid of what the old man might try to do with it.

Rather, the very thing which I might misuse in my old man is the very thing that Spirit and Word together use to kill that old man within me.

Originally Posted by ColdSilverMoon

Originally Posted by NaphtaliPress

Here is a big do and do not list which happens to be part of most Presbyterian churches' doctrinal statements.

Larger Catechism Q&A 99 through Q&A 148.

Exactly. After all, the Decalogue is a list....

and, more to the point, Q&A 99 through 148 of the WLC contain a huge "list" that is man-made, not divine as the Decalogue is. The Westminster divines had no problem with setting apart certain things as ways of violating God's Law - things that are not in many cases directly spelled out in Scripture. They took the time, as we ought, to consider carefully things we do and give warning through their teaching about things we do that we often carelessly do, thinking we are without sin in the matter (when we very well may be).

This is a good point lest we pat ourselves on the back but we also need to remind ourselves that there is a matter of intent here. We are slaves to Christ and not to unrighteousness if we have believed upon Him. We do the things we do not want to do but that is not who we are. Thus, I would say the man I am trying to mortify tries to self-justify and treat the Law in a way toward that end. Yet, who I am as a Christian, does not stop using the Law in its principle use because I'm afraid of what the old man might try to do with it.

Rather, the very thing which I might misuse in my old man is the very thing that Spirit and Word together use to kill that old man within me.

Thank you, good reminder. Makes me think of Romans 7 & 8.

Originally Posted by Knoxienne

Originally Posted by Theognome

Originally Posted by Knoxienne

I've come to the conclusion that some people are going to call me a Pharisee because of my beliefs, no matter what. So I just request that they call me Mrs. Pharisee. Whaddya gonna do?

Hey there, Mrs. Pharisee. I like your nice, wide philacteries. Wanna date?

Theognome

How's tonight? We're having baked chicken.

Get a room!



SAY NO TO PBPDA (PuritanBoard public display of affection)......

Originally Posted by Pergamum

Originally Posted by Knoxienne

Originally Posted by Theognome

Hey there, Mrs. Pharisee. I like your nice, wide philacteries. Wanna date?

Theognome

How's tonight? We're having baked chicken.

Get a room!



SAY NO TO PBPDA (PuritanBoard public display of affection)......

Oh, yeah, how romantic. I said chicken, not lobster thermodor!

Originally Posted by toddpedlar

Originally Posted by ColdSilverMoon

Originally Posted by NaphtaliPress

Here is a big do and do not list which happens to be part of most Presbyterian churches' doctrinal statements.

Larger Catechism Q&A 99 through Q&A 148.

Exactly. After all, the Decalogue is a list....

and, more to the point, Q&A 99 through 148 of the WLC contain a huge "list" that is man-made, not divine as the Decalogue is. The Westminster divines had no problem with setting apart certain things as ways of violating God's Law - things that are not in many cases directly spelled out in Scripture. They took the time, as we ought, to consider carefully things we do and give warning through their teaching about things we do that we often carelessly do, thinking we are without sin in the matter (when we very well may be).

I agree, though almost every item listed in the LC has an accompanying proof text. My point is that lists of Do's and Don'ts are not inherently bad - in fact they are very good when based on sound Scriptural principle.

To me the difference between the Pharisee and the Christian is pretty clear.

The one believes he is justified by the law and relies upon his self righteousness. The other believes he is justified by grace through faith in Christ Jesus and relies upon His grace alone.

Originally Posted by Knoxienne

Originally Posted by Pergamum

Originally Posted by Knoxienne

How's tonight? We're having baked chicken.

Get a room!



SAY NO TO PBPDA (PuritanBoard public display of affection)......

Oh, yeah, how romantic. I said chicken, not lobster thermodor!

What? Crustaceans are more romantic than poultry???

Originally Posted by Pergamum

Originally Posted by Knoxienne

Originally Posted by Pergamum

Get a room!



SAY NO TO PBPDA (PuritanBoard public display of affection)......

Oh, yeah, how romantic. I said chicken, not lobster thermodor!

What? Crustaceans are more romantic than poultry???

Yes! It's in the Bible!

Originally Posted by Pergamum

SAY NO TO PBPDA (PuritanBoard public display of affection)......

Sounds like one of those Phariseical 'laws' to me...

Pbltz.

Theognome

pbltz?

Originally Posted by Theognome

Originally Posted by Pergamum

SAY NO TO PBPDA (PuritanBoard public display of affection)......

Sounds like one of those Phariseical 'laws' to me...

Pbltz.

Theognome

Sounds to me like Brother Pergy could use some of our good old-fashioned bible counselin'! :

Originally Posted by Pergamum

pbltz?

A textual raspberry. So there.

Theognome

PB raspberries!!!????!!!???.......I can just imagine Calvin doing that..... and foamy spittle dribbling on his beard..

Originally Posted by Pergamum

PB raspberries!!!????!!!???.......I can just imagine Calvin doing that..... and foamy spittle dribbling on his beard..

To be polite when offering raspberries and thereby reduce the chance of soiling one's beard always remember to swallow first - unless one has a chaw or dip in one's mouth, the expectoration into a proper receptacle prior to offering the raspberry would be preferable.

Originally Posted by Pergamum

PB raspberries!!!????!!!???.......I can just imagine Calvin doing that..... and foamy spittle dribbling on his beard..

He didn't dribble on his own beard- he sprayed all over Jacopo Sadoleto's beard.

Theognome

Guess I'm not reading the right threads. Just not seeing people calling other people Pharisees here on PB. I do see when others disagree on a certain topic, but I think that's to be expect (iron sharpens iron sort of thing) as long as we are kind and loving about it.

Originally Posted by TranZ4MR

Guess I'm not reading the right threads. Just not seeing people calling other people Pharisees here on PB.

It happens.

Originally Posted by Prufrock

Originally Posted by TranZ4MR

Guess I'm not reading the right threads. Just not seeing people calling other people Pharisees here on PB.

It happens.

Well, it's intimated. I can tell when a poster is screaming at me or anyone else as they sit front of their computer. It's what I call cyber-ice - an uneasy Arctic chill floating through cyberspace. And if I can tell, that means they can probably tell if I'm doing the same thing.

Originally Posted by Knoxienne

Originally Posted by Prufrock

Originally Posted by TranZ4MR

Guess I'm not reading the right threads. Just not seeing people calling other people Pharisees here on PB.

It happens.

Well, it's intimated. I can tell when a poster is screaming at me behind their computer. And that means they can probably tell if I'm doing the same thing.

I can tell when you're doing it, too- and so can the kittens; they get all scared...

Theognome

Originally Posted by Theognome

Originally Posted by Knoxienne

Originally Posted by Prufrock

It happens.

Well, it's intimated. I can tell when a poster is screaming at me behind their computer. And that means they can probably tell if I'm doing the same thing.

I can tell when you're doing it, too- and so can the kittens; they get all scared...

Theognome

BOO!!!

This is just for Bill so he doesn't have to confuse people with trying to spell bodily noises.

You guys aren't pharisees, you're just silly.

Originally Posted by Augusta

This is just for Bill so he doesn't have to confuse people with trying to spell bodily noises.

I deeply, deeply appreciate that, Traci.

Do you have to clean his monitor often Toni? A little spraying going on there.