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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2008, 08:25 AM
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Laying down on the couch with a TV turned on (and usually falling asleep) is hardly "seeking pleasure".
I realize this is difficult to keep and understand the "greater" points related to keeping the Sabbath. However, by God's grace, obedience involves thought, word and deed.



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Westminster Larger Catechism
Question 117: How is the sabbath or the Lord's day to be sanctified?

Answer: The sabbath or Lord's day is to be sanctified by an holy resting all the day, not only from such works as are at all times sinful, but even from such worldly employments and recreations as are on other days lawful; and making it our delight to spend the whole time (except so much of it as is to betaken up in works of necessity and mercy) in the public and private exercises of God's worship: and, to that end, we are to prepare our hearts, and with such foresight, diligence, and moderation, to dispose and seasonably dispatch our worldly business, that we may be the more free and fit for the duties of that day.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2008, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by kceaster View Post
The WCF doesn't go into the minutia because, I believe, they weren't supposed to. Even if they tried, there was probably difference of opinion and latitude.
WCF 21.8. VIII. This Sabbath is to be kept holy unto the Lord when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all the day from their own works, words, and thoughts about their worldly employments and recreations; but also are taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.
LC 117: How is the sabbath or the Lord's day to be sanctified?
Answer: The sabbath or Lord's day is to be sanctified by an holy resting all the day, not only from such works as are at all times sinful, but even from such worldly employments and recreations as are on other days lawful; and making it our delight to spend the whole time (except so much of it as is to betaken up in works of necessity and mercy) in the public and private exercises of God's worship: and, to that end, we are to prepare our hearts, and with such foresight, diligence, and moderation, to dispose and seasonably dispatch our worldly business, that we may be the more free and fit for the duties of that day.
Question 119: What are the sins forbidden in the fourth commandment?
Answer: The sins forbidden in the fourth commandment are, all omissions of the duties required, all careless, negligent, and unprofitable performing of them, and being weary of them; all profaning the day by idleness, and doing that which is in itself sinful; and by all needless works, words, and thoughts, about our worldly employments and recreations.
Kevin,
What need for lists?
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The Regulative Principle: Samuel Miller gives a succinct statement of this principle when he writes that since the Scriptures are the “only infallible rule of faith and practice, no rite or ceremony ought to have a place in the public worship of God, which is not warranted in Scripture, either by direct precept or example, or by good and sufficient inference.”

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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2008, 09:18 AM
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Well we know that the WCF is against it but it always make me think of how Jesus went out of his way to do things on the Sabbath just to get under the Pharisees skin and in this way bring up a point, the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

Matthew 12

Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath
1At that time£Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. 2But when the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, “Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath.” 3He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, and those who were with him: 4how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him to eat nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? 5Or have you not read in the Law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless? 6I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. 7And if you had known what this means,£‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. 8For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.”

A Man with a Withered Hand
9He went on from there and£entered their synagogue. 10And a man was there with a withered hand. And they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”—so that they might accuse him. 11He said to them, “Which one of you who has a sheep, if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not take hold of it and lift it out? 12Of how much more value is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” 13Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And the man stretched it out, and it was restored, healthy like the other. 14But the Pharisees went out and conspired against him, how to destroy him.


Luke 13:10
A Woman with a Disabling Spirit
10Now he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath. 11And there was a woman who had had a disabling spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not fully straighten herself. 12When Jesus saw her, he called her over and said to her, “Woman, you are freed from your disability.” 13And he laid his hands on her, and immediately she was made straight, and she glorified God. 14But the ruler of the synagogue, indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, said to the people, “There are six days in which work ought to be done. Come on those days and be healed, and not on the Sabbath day.” 15Then the Lord answered him, “You hypocrites! Does not each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or his donkey from the manger and lead it away to water it? 16And ought not this woman, a daughter of Abraham whom Satan bound for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath day?” 17As he said these things, all his adversaries were put to shame, and all the people rejoiced at all the glorious things that were done by him.

The Jewish notion of how they followed the Sabbath came mostly from the extra laws they added to those given to them by God and I think we should be careful to no do the same thing. All the talk of how to avoid doing different activities on the Sabbath even to the point of not watching T.V. reminds me of the Jews adding things to their law. I guess motive is the important thing, why are we avoiding all activity on the Sabbath? And is it what God had in mind? The Jews thought they had it right but in the end missed the point of the Sabbath.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2008, 09:45 AM
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Eric,
Are you suggesting that it is only possible to err by "remembering" the Sabbath too much? That seemed to be the principal failure of Jesus' earthly days: legalistic, fastidious rule-making. But you know, Jesus paid even them a backhanded compliment when he said (regarding "tithing" of mint and cummin), "You should have done the former without neglecting the latter!"

But we know from places in the Old Testament that the neglect of the Day was more often the predominant sin in those days; so, not-remembering is certainly an easy trap to fall into, it seems to me.

What would you say is the more prevalent sin in the world today regarding the 4th? Is it "remembered" too much? Really?

Can you "remember" the God-oriented purpose of the day, making him your consuming passion (when not doing deeds of necessity and mercy, or getting a little rest), if you are absorbed in something like sports contests or escapist fantasy?

The Sabbath was given to us as a blessing (the Sabbath was made for man); indeed we weren't created to give God creatures to bless him on that day (not man for the Sabbath). But Jesus is LORD of the Sabbath, he is the owner of the day. It seems to me those are the words that dominate that particular passsage of Scripture, and we ought to reflect deeply on what it might mean that he wants that day in particular.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2008, 09:46 AM
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Moderator note. Erick, you sure appear to be placing the governing doctrinal standard of this board on a par with Pharisaicalism. Yes; avoiding our regular callings and recreations on the Lord's day is what God had in mind; not all activity; we should be active in the public and private worship of God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shackleton View Post
Well we know that the WCF is against it but it always make me think of how Jesus went out of his way to do things on the Sabbath just to get under the Pharisees skin and in this way bring up a point, the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

Matthew 12

Jesus Is Lord of the Sabbath
1At that time£Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry, and they began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. 2But when the Pharisees saw it, they said to him, “Look, your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath.” 3He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, and those who were with him: 4how he entered the house of God and ate the bread of the Presence, which it was not lawful for him to eat nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? 5Or have you not read in the Law how on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath and are guiltless? 6I tell you, something greater than the temple is here. 7And if you had known what this means,£‘I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. 8For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath.”

A Man with a Withered Hand
9He went on from there and£entered their synagogue. 10And a man was there with a withered hand. And they asked him, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”—so that they might accuse him. 11He said to them, “Which one of you who has a sheep, if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not take hold of it and lift it out? 12Of how much more value is a man than a sheep! So it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” 13Then he said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” And the man stretched it out, and it was restored, healthy like the other. 14But the Pharisees went out and conspired against him, how to destroy him.


Luke 13:10
A Woman with a Disabling Spirit
10Now he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the Sabbath. 11And there was a woman who had had a disabling spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not fully straighten herself. 12When Jesus saw her, he called her over and said to her, “Woman, you are freed from your disability.” 13And he laid his hands on her, and immediately she was made straight, and she glorified God. 14But the ruler of the synagogue, indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, said to the people, “There are six days in which work ought to be done. Come on those days and be healed, and not on the Sabbath day.” 15Then the Lord answered him, “You hypocrites! Does not each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or his donkey from the manger and lead it away to water it? 16And ought not this woman, a daughter of Abraham whom Satan bound for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath day?” 17As he said these things, all his adversaries were put to shame, and all the people rejoiced at all the glorious things that were done by him.

The Jewish notion of how they followed the Sabbath came mostly from the extra laws they added to those given to them by God and I think we should be careful to no do the same thing. All the talk of how to avoid doing different activities on the Sabbath even to the point of not watching T.V. reminds me of the Jews adding things to their law. I guess motive is the important thing, why are we avoiding all activity on the Sabbath? And is it what God had in mind? The Jews thought they had it right but in the end missed the point of the Sabbath.
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2008, 10:26 AM
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Not sure if this is the proper forum or question to confess but I must confess to my brethren that I have been a Sabbath breaker for many years especially during the Pro Football Season.

I am now seeing it at this later stage in life (ok I'm only 38 but you'd think I would have learned this principle by now being a Reformed Presbyterian for so many years) as something I need to come to grips with. My initial reaction to this thread having come from Fundamentalism is that there is a tendency among Strict Sabbatarians to be "legalistic" in their approach as well as binding others' conscience. But I know see it as a delight and that those who defend the Scriptural and Confessional view of the Sabbath want God to have one's very best as well as for others to enjoy what focusing on God for the "Whole" Day entails. I really feel at least for me that my denial of Sabbatarian guidelines is holding on to an idol which links me to childhood and is something I like therefore I do not want to give it up. Sound familiar? (insert any favorite sin here if you'd like).

But as I said on another thread regarding the RPW, times are a changin'. Men please pray for me that I will embrace the Joy of the Sabbath and that I would turn from focusing on my own pleasure to bring honor and Glory to God. I know what it is like to do so as I have been part of a Church in the past which gathered for Worship and then Fellowship in the afternoon aiding one another in Sabbath Keeping. I remember how edifying it was to focus on Christ All day however I did not continue that practice for long but now would like to engage in it once again.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2008, 10:36 AM
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Chris...

Quote:
Originally Posted by NaphtaliPress View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kceaster View Post
The WCF doesn't go into the minutia because, I believe, they weren't supposed to. Even if they tried, there was probably difference of opinion and latitude.
WCF 21.8. VIII. This Sabbath is to be kept holy unto the Lord when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all the day from their own works, words, and thoughts about their worldly employments and recreations; but also are taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.
LC 117: How is the sabbath or the Lord's day to be sanctified?
Answer: The sabbath or Lord's day is to be sanctified by an holy resting all the day, not only from such works as are at all times sinful, but even from such worldly employments and recreations as are on other days lawful; and making it our delight to spend the whole time (except so much of it as is to betaken up in works of necessity and mercy) in the public and private exercises of God's worship: and, to that end, we are to prepare our hearts, and with such foresight, diligence, and moderation, to dispose and seasonably dispatch our worldly business, that we may be the more free and fit for the duties of that day.
Question 119: What are the sins forbidden in the fourth commandment?
Answer: The sins forbidden in the fourth commandment are, all omissions of the duties required, all careless, negligent, and unprofitable performing of them, and being weary of them; all profaning the day by idleness, and doing that which is in itself sinful; and by all needless works, words, and thoughts, about our worldly employments and recreations.
Kevin,
What need for lists?
That's exactly what I'm saying, we don't need lists. However, the WCF has to be embraced, just as the Scriptures that underlie it, by the conscience.

Let me reiterate that I am not relegating the Sabbath to adiaphora, however, it does share a frontier. We can say it shares a frontier with the binding of the conscience because that is exactly what the Pharisees attempted to do to Jesus and His disciples. Jesus' conscience would not be bound to the minutia and listing that the Pharisees wanted to postulate. So, in that way, we can apply the same kind of rationale as asking if the meat we buy is sacrificed to idols. Paul tells us to leave the question aside and don't go out of your way to bind your own conscience.

Moreover, we have the freedom to bind our consciences according to the Sabbath. If you believe it is okay to take a walk on the Sabbath for the enjoyment of God in nature, then by all means, do so. If you believe that taking a nap is permissible, then do it. But, by having the conversation of what you believe is permissible as opposed to what I believe is permissible is unduly binding the conscience. We cannot, IMHO, doctrinally lay down the law on enjoying nature or taking a nap. If we do, these are the commandments and doctrines of man because the Scriptures do not say explicitly that we cannot do those things. Chapter 20 of the WCF, section 2 says, "God alone is Lord of the conscience, and has left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men, which are, in any thing, contrary to His Word; or beside it, if matters of faith, or worship. So that, to believe such doctrines, or to obey such commands, out of conscience, is to betray true liberty of conscience: and the requiring of an implicit faith, and an absolute and blind obedience, is to destroy liberty of conscience, and reason also." If we interpret the Scriptures to say that we can't take a walk or a nap, we are placing things along side the Scriptures, of which, we may not bind any man's conscience.

If we say that something is permissible, and something else is not then we have started a list. Since the WCF doesn't expressly say, then we have to appeal to the Lord of the conscience.

What we should teach regarding the Sabbath is for our congregations to keep it by faith. What does that mean?

First, without faith it is impossible to please God. If we unduly bind anyone's conscience so that they carry out their Sabbath duties in what the WCF would call blind obedience, then we can be assured that God will not be pleased with either our Sabbath keeping or theirs (since we are all in this together).

Along with that, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. We need to teach Sabbath duties as the Scriptures teaches. The Scriptures didn't say anything about taking a nature hike or a nap. So, how can we say that these are unlawful? The teaching of the Sabbath command is fairly straightforward. We are to rest except in cases of necessity and mercy. We are not to work, and attempt to gain extra wages from working that day. How this plays out in the life of the church and each individual member must be left up to their conscience.

The Scriptures are clear with what is forbidden on the Sabbath. Doing our own pleasure. Now this needs to be carefully considered because what my idea of doing my own pleasure may be different than someone else's. This is where Pharisaism comes into play. Surely it is my pleasure to worship God on the Lord's Day. So, that cannot be forbidden. Surely it is a pleasure to read good words from Scripture or from an exposition of such. That cannot be forbidden. Here's where it gets sticky: Surely it is a pleasure to meet a new person at church and ask them about themselves. But according to the letter, we are to leave our worldly thoughts and employments at the door. What about talking to relatives on the phone? I know a pastor who usually talks to his children who live away from him on the Lord's Day. While the subject of the Lord's Day and the Scriptures may definitely be discussed, there are other discussions as well. Do you see how far we can go?

For instance, my family and I are attending a new church work in St. Augustine. For reasons of practicality, they have contracted with a hotel to have their services in a conference room. By the very nature of a hotel, this is causing people to have to work on the Sabbath. Right, wrong, or indifferent this causes a Sabbath crisis. Of course, we would say that this is an exception that is warranted, just like Dr. Pipa having to eat in a hotel restaurant on the Sabbath. But, according to the command, may we make exceptions? Yes, because of necessity and mercy. But there is a larger principal here.

If keeping the Sabbath is a question of faith, then we must, by and because of God's grace, allow a bit of latitude. We must be flexible to allow for differing opinions because, largely, the keeping of the commandments is a sanctification issue. Most, if not all of us, would say that it is pretty easy not to break the 6th commandment. However, how many of us have broken it? All of us. It goes to the intricacies of God's being. Do we get angry and sin against our brother or our neighbor? Absolutely. If we do, then we have committed murder.

The Sabbath is no different. Even if we get it down to a science and we're all doing exactly what we're supposed to do. At the end of the day, 1) we obeyed because the Holy Spirit is at work in us to sanctify us, 2) we did not obey perfectly, and 3) we're rendering service as unprofitable servants.

Because those three things are true, we should not allow anyone to willfully sin on the Sabbath with impunity. For instance, we should not allow church members to willfully neglect the gathering without calling them to account. But by and large people are not flaunting their sin in front of the church on the Sabbath. If they do, we should call them to repentance. However, we should also not try to play the Holy Spirit in people's lives and bind their consciences in ways that we should not. We should pray with them and for them, just as we pray for ourselves, that we all would honor the Christian Sabbath in ways that would honor and bring glory to God. Binding or even wounding anyone's conscience in such matters would steal people's joy and dishonor God.

In the end, we need to weigh it on the scales. If we bind and wound, yet everyone "keeps" the Sabbath, does it bring honor and glory to God? If we let everyone do their own thing, forsake the assembly, and worship in a flippant and haphazard way, does it bring honor and glory to God? Surely there is a balance and we should do all we can to be encouraging and edifying to our brothers and sisters.

In Christ,

KC
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2008, 11:21 AM
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Kevin,
I appreciate your concern for a light hand and pastoral approach particularly given this is a time where the fourth commandment is generally disregarded. However, my concern is that you seem to not want it even discussed in the process of trying to guard against binding the conscience and finding the right balance. While they gave no lists (not needing to given the total proscribing of recreations and work) in the Westminster Confession and Catechism, the Puritans most surely addressed details in their sermons and books before, during and after the Assembly. We know what recreations/passtimes and labor are as distinguished from worship activities. We should not leave these up in the air as indeterminable. Walks (i.e. exercise; not recreation properly understood) and naps are discussed by Puritans such as Twisse (the moderator of the WA) as appropriate if a means to help keep the day, and some need one or the other or both more than others. I just don't see the alarm that others do; as Bruce noted, our problem today is not too strict an approach to the Lord's day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kceaster View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by NaphtaliPress View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kceaster View Post
The WCF doesn't go into the minutia because, I believe, they weren't supposed to. Even if they tried, there was probably difference of opinion and latitude.
WCF 21.8. VIII. This Sabbath is to be kept holy unto the Lord when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all the day from their own works, words, and thoughts about their worldly employments and recreations; but also are taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of his worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.
LC 117: How is the sabbath or the Lord's day to be sanctified?
Answer: The sabbath or Lord's day is to be sanctified by an holy resting all the day, not only from such works as are at all times sinful, but even from such worldly employments and recreations as are on other days lawful; and making it our delight to spend the whole time (except so much of it as is to betaken up in works of necessity and mercy) in the public and private exercises of God's worship: and, to that end, we are to prepare our hearts, and with such foresight, diligence, and moderation, to dispose and seasonably dispatch our worldly business, that we may be the more free and fit for the duties of that day.
Question 119: What are the sins forbidden in the fourth commandment?
Answer: The sins forbidden in the fourth commandment are, all omissions of the duties required, all careless, negligent, and unprofitable performing of them, and being weary of them; all profaning the day by idleness, and doing that which is in itself sinful; and by all needless works, words, and thoughts, about our worldly employments and recreations.
Kevin,
What need for lists?
That's exactly what I'm saying, we don't need lists. However, the WCF has to be embraced, just as the Scriptures that underlie it, by the conscience.

Let me reiterate that I am not relegating the Sabbath to adiaphora, however, it does share a frontier. We can say it shares a frontier with the binding of the conscience because that is exactly what the Pharisees attempted to do to Jesus and His disciples. Jesus' conscience would not be bound to the minutia and listing that the Pharisees wanted to postulate. So, in that way, we can apply the same kind of rationale as asking if the meat we buy is sacrificed to idols. Paul tells us to leave the question aside and don't go out of your way to bind your own conscience.

Moreover, we have the freedom to bind our consciences according to the Sabbath. If you believe it is okay to take a walk on the Sabbath for the enjoyment of God in nature, then by all means, do so. If you believe that taking a nap is permissible, then do it. But, by having the conversation of what you believe is permissible as opposed to what I believe is permissible is unduly binding the conscience. We cannot, IMHO, doctrinally lay down the law on enjoying nature or taking a nap. If we do, these are the commandments and doctrines of man because the Scriptures do not say explicitly that we cannot do those things. Chapter 20 of the WCF, section 2 says, "God alone is Lord of the conscience, and has left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men, which are, in any thing, contrary to His Word; or beside it, if matters of faith, or worship. So that, to believe such doctrines, or to obey such commands, out of conscience, is to betray true liberty of conscience: and the requiring of an implicit faith, and an absolute and blind obedience, is to destroy liberty of conscience, and reason also." If we interpret the Scriptures to say that we can't take a walk or a nap, we are placing things along side the Scriptures, of which, we may not bind any man's conscience.

If we say that something is permissible, and something else is not then we have started a list. Since the WCF doesn't expressly say, then we have to appeal to the Lord of the conscience.

What we should teach regarding the Sabbath is for our congregations to keep it by faith. What does that mean?

First, without faith it is impossible to please God. If we unduly bind anyone's conscience so that they carry out their Sabbath duties in what the WCF would call blind obedience, then we can be assured that God will not be pleased with either our Sabbath keeping or theirs (since we are all in this together).

Along with that, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. We need to teach Sabbath duties as the Scriptures teaches. The Scriptures didn't say anything about taking a nature hike or a nap. So, how can we say that these are unlawful? The teaching of the Sabbath command is fairly straightforward. We are to rest except in cases of necessity and mercy. We are not to work, and attempt to gain extra wages from working that day. How this plays out in the life of the church and each individual member must be left up to their conscience.

The Scriptures are clear with what is forbidden on the Sabbath. Doing our own pleasure. Now this needs to be carefully considered because what my idea of doing my own pleasure may be different than someone else's. This is where Pharisaism comes into play. Surely it is my pleasure to worship God on the Lord's Day. So, that cannot be forbidden. Surely it is a pleasure to read good words from Scripture or from an exposition of such. That cannot be forbidden. Here's where it gets sticky: Surely it is a pleasure to meet a new person at church and ask them about themselves. But according to the letter, we are to leave our worldly thoughts and employments at the door. What about talking to relatives on the phone? I know a pastor who usually talks to his children who live away from him on the Lord's Day. While the subject of the Lord's Day and the Scriptures may definitely be discussed, there are other discussions as well. Do you see how far we can go?

For instance, my family and I are attending a new church work in St. Augustine. For reasons of practicality, they have contracted with a hotel to have their services in a conference room. By the very nature of a hotel, this is causing people to have to work on the Sabbath. Right, wrong, or indifferent this causes a Sabbath crisis. Of course, we would say that this is an exception that is warranted, just like Dr. Pipa having to eat in a hotel restaurant on the Sabbath. But, according to the command, may we make exceptions? Yes, because of necessity and mercy. But there is a larger principal here.

If keeping the Sabbath is a question of faith, then we must, by and because of God's grace, allow a bit of latitude. We must be flexible to allow for differing opinions because, largely, the keeping of the commandments is a sanctification issue. Most, if not all of us, would say that it is pretty easy not to break the 6th commandment. However, how many of us have broken it? All of us. It goes to the intricacies of God's being. Do we get angry and sin against our brother or our neighbor? Absolutely. If we do, then we have committed murder.

The Sabbath is no different. Even if we get it down to a science and we're all doing exactly what we're supposed to do. At the end of the day, 1) we obeyed because the Holy Spirit is at work in us to sanctify us, 2) we did not obey perfectly, and 3) we're rendering service as unprofitable servants.

Because those three things are true, we should not allow anyone to willfully sin on the Sabbath with impunity. For instance, we should not allow church members to willfully neglect the gathering without calling them to account. But by and large people are not flaunting their sin in front of the church on the Sabbath. If they do, we should call them to repentance. However, we should also not try to play the Holy Spirit in people's lives and bind their consciences in ways that we should not. We should pray with them and for them, just as we pray for ourselves, that we all would honor the Christian Sabbath in ways that would honor and bring glory to God. Binding or even wounding anyone's conscience in such matters would steal people's joy and dishonor God.

In the end, we need to weigh it on the scales. If we bind and wound, yet everyone "keeps" the Sabbath, does it bring honor and glory to God? If we let everyone do their own thing, forsake the assembly, and worship in a flippant and haphazard way, does it bring honor and glory to God? Surely there is a balance and we should do all we can to be encouraging and edifying to our brothers and sisters.

In Christ,

KC
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whitway (09-09-2008)
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Old 09-09-2008, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by NaphtaliPress View Post
Kevin,
I appreciate your concern for a light hand and pastoral approach particularly given this is a time where the fourth commandment is generally disregarded. However, my concern is that you seem to not want it even discussed in the process of trying to guard against binding the conscience and finding the right balance. While they gave no lists (not needing to given the total proscribing of recreations and work) in the Westminster Confession and Catechism, the Puritans most surely addressed details in their sermons and books before, during and after the Assembly. We know what recreations/passtimes and labor are as distinguished from worship activities. We should not leave these up in the air as indeterminable. Walks (i.e. exercise; not recreation properly understood) and naps are discussed by Puritans such as Twisse (the moderator of the WA) as appropriate if a means to help keep the day, and some need one or the other or both more than others. I just don't see the alarm that others do; as Bruce noted, our problem today is not too strict an approach to the Lord's day.
Your statement that the Sabbath is disregarded is exactly what I'm getting at. You're looking at a positive command and seeing it negatively applied. We shouldn't focus on how we're not keeping it, but how to keep it. That is exactly the slippery slope I'm suggesting we avoid. If you say that this group or that disregards it because they do something that you believe is not permissible, then you have bound their conscience, either rightly or wrongly, and that's up to the Lord of the conscience. If that group does not have the faith to obey the command as you see it, then do you really want to make it an issue? Wouldn't it be better to teach what the Scriptures teach and allow the individual family make up their own minds? Wouldn't it be better to trust the Holy Spirit to work in that family to bring about the kind of change of mind and heart in His own time?

I guess what I really am saying is that the Puritans went too far on this issue. And where they went too far is in making lists of do's and dont's. No one can glean from the Scriptures that it is unlawful to play horseshoes on the Sabbath. I'm sorry, they just can't. They can make the statement that it is unlawful if he has neglected the worship of the Lord so that he can make extra money. But horseshoes within itself, after worship and fellowship with the saints, in the cool of the afternoon, should not be sinful for every man. If it is sinful for you, then don't do it. But don't tell someone else it is sinful for them unless it is expressly set down in Scripture.

Because "worldly employments and recreations" does not give a full description of everything that means. It is a principal to be applied, sure. But not a principal from which lists may be made, and unsolicited statements may be forced upon another. If a man asks you what you think it means, it is fair game. But pastors and elders should not make it their business to go beyond the pale and insert their sensitivities into the lives of others on any obedience issue that is not clearly marked out in Scripture.

It is work to saddle a horse and go for a ride. Some would say this violates the command, some would not. That horse has to be fed on the Sabbath, does it not? Is there anything expressly set down in Scripture that says a man cannot ride a horse on the Sabbath?

More to the point. We may need to turn on the TV so that we can be warned of impending storms. Or should we just turn on the radio? The minutia is endless. The fact that we rationalize some activities by putting them squarely in the acts of necessity and mercy, when at other times they are clearly out of bounds either shows that we do not obey the command as it was intended, or there is latitude on the activities of the day. If the electricity is out when you get home from church, not having eaten yet, will you open a box of crackers and eat whatever is available, or do you not have the freedom to go to a restaurant? Many call this necessity who argue for a more strict interpretation, but it is not a necessity.

The best example I can give is John Murray and Dr. Pipa. Both are great men of the faith. However, they would differ on what they believe is permissible on the Sabbath. And both are strict sabbatarians. What is wrong with that? They both can't be right because they are at odds. Dr. Pipa says it is okay to eat at the hotel restaurant if nothing else is available. Dr. Murray would say that you should have made a sandwich for just such an occasion. Forgive me if I'm wrong in this. This is my impression from hearing Dr. Smith talk about Dr. Murray on Sabbath issues.

If we can't agree on these particulars, but agree on the principals, then we should fall back to a less strict position and allow the Holy Spirit to convince each other, as only He can do. We don't agree on things because our brains are in sync or because we are all around great guys. The only reason for likemindedness among the brethren (which is like oil flowing down from Aaron's beard) is because of the Holy Spirit and His work in our lives.

Therefore, we should teach what the Bible teaches, express our thoughts formed from those Scriptures, but be careful in what we permit or what we deny. The sin of the people is at stake. If we go too far, sins could multiply greatly, either because the people choose to disobey the positive command out of rebellion, or because they obey the doctrine of man, thereby not pleasing God in faith.

We may discuss the Sabbath all we want. But what I'm saying is that we should be careful in how we approach it. You didn't address it as a faith issue. Do you believe it is? If so, doesn't that lend to a special care in binding the conscience?

In Christ,

KC
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Old 09-09-2008, 12:36 PM
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Naphtali says:
Quote:
as Bruce noted, our problem today is not too strict an approach to the Lord's day.
Honestly the approach of the day for most Christians is how much can I enjoy, work, or get done in the day between services which I believe calls for a hearty application of the 4th Commandment. I believe there are 10 Commandments right? We heartily apply each commandment when Preaching through the Commandments so why do some now want to have the 4th Commandment as a freebie than can be applied as they see fit in their own mind? (All rhetorical questions of course).
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Old 09-09-2008, 12:36 PM
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Kevin,
Okay; you have elaborated more now and I get it. I think you should own up to an exception to the Westminster Standards on the fourth commandment and also to LC 99. That's all I have time for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kceaster View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by NaphtaliPress View Post
Kevin,
I appreciate your concern for a light hand and pastoral approach particularly given this is a time where the fourth commandment is generally disregarded. However, my concern is that you seem to not want it even discussed in the process of trying to guard against binding the conscience and finding the right balance. While they gave no lists (not needing to given the total proscribing of recreations and work) in the Westminster Confession and Catechism, the Puritans most surely addressed details in their sermons and books before, during and after the Assembly. We know what recreations/passtimes and labor are as distinguished from worship activities. We should not leave these up in the air as indeterminable. Walks (i.e. exercise; not recreation properly understood) and naps are discussed by Puritans such as Twisse (the moderator of the WA) as appropriate if a means to help keep the day, and some need one or the other or both more than others. I just don't see the alarm that others do; as Bruce noted, our problem today is not too strict an approach to the Lord's day.
Your statement that the Sabbath is disregarded is exactly what I'm getting at. You're looking at a positive command and seeing it negatively applied. We shouldn't focus on how we're not keeping it, but how to keep it. That is exactly the slippery slope I'm suggesting we avoid. If you say that this group or that disregards it because they do something that you believe is not permissible, then you have bound their conscience, either rightly or wrongly, and that's up to the Lord of the conscience. If that group does not have the faith to obey the command as you see it, then do you really want to make it an issue? Wouldn't it be better to teach what the Scriptures teach and allow the individual family make up their own minds? Wouldn't it be better to trust the Holy Spirit to work in that family to bring about the kind of change of mind and heart in His own time?

I guess what I really am saying is that the Puritans went too far on this issue. And where they went too far is in making lists of do's and dont's. No one can glean from the Scriptures that it is unlawful to play horseshoes on the Sabbath. I'm sorry, they just can't. They can make the statement that it is unlawful if he has neglected the worship of the Lord so that he can make extra money. But horseshoes within itself, after worship and fellowship with the saints, in the cool of the afternoon, should not be sinful for every man. If it is sinful for you, then don't do it. But don't tell someone else it is sinful for them unless it is expressly set down in Scripture.

Because "worldly employments and recreations" does not give a full description of everything that means. It is a principal to be applied, sure. But not a principal from which lists may be made, and unsolicited statements may be forced upon another. If a man asks you what you think it means, it is fair game. But pastors and elders should not make it their business to go beyond the pale and insert their sensitivities into the lives of others on any obedience issue that is not clearly marked out in Scripture.

It is work to saddle a horse and go for a ride. Some would say this violates the command, some would not. That horse has to be fed on the Sabbath, does it not? Is there anything expressly set down in Scripture that says a man cannot ride a horse on the Sabbath?

More to the point. We may need to turn on the TV so that we can be warned of impending storms. Or should we just turn on the radio? The minutia is endless. The fact that we rationalize some activities by putting them squarely in the acts of necessity and mercy, when at other times they are clearly out of bounds either shows that we do not obey the command as it was intended, or there is latitude on the activities of the day. If the electricity is out when you get home from church, not having eaten yet, will you open a box of crackers and eat whatever is available, or do you not have the freedom to go to a restaurant? Many call this necessity who argue for a more strict interpretation, but it is not a necessity.

The best example I can give is John Murray and Dr. Pipa. Both are great men of the faith. However, they would differ on what they believe is permissible on the Sabbath. And both are strict sabbatarians. What is wrong with that? They both can't be right because they are at odds. Dr. Pipa says it is okay to eat at the hotel restaurant if nothing else is available. Dr. Murray would say that you should have made a sandwich for just such an occasion. Forgive me if I'm wrong in this. This is my impression from hearing Dr. Smith talk about Dr. Murray on Sabbath issues.

If we can't agree on these particulars, but agree on the principals, then we should fall back to a less strict position and allow the Holy Spirit to convince each other, as only He can do. We don't agree on things because our brains are in sync or because we are all around great guys. The only reason for likemindedness among the brethren (which is like oil flowing down from Aaron's beard) is because of the Holy Spirit and His work in our lives.

Therefore, we should teach what the Bible teaches, express our thoughts formed from those Scriptures, but be careful in what we permit or what we deny. The sin of the people is at stake. If we go too far, sins could multiply greatly, either because the people choose to disobey the positive command out of rebellion, or because they obey the doctrine of man, thereby not pleasing God in faith.

We may discuss the Sabbath all we want. But what I'm saying is that we should be careful in how we approach it. You didn't address it as a faith issue. Do you believe it is? If so, doesn't that lend to a special care in binding the conscience?

In Christ,

KC
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whitway (09-09-2008)
  #52 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2008, 01:15 PM
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