» Site Navigation | | | » Online Users: 107 | | 22 members and 85 guests | | Andres, austinww, dudley, dyarashus, historyb, Ivan, Jake, jfschultz, JoyFullMom, Micah Everett, nicnap, Re4mdant, smhbbag, The Calvin Knight, timmopussycat, ubermadchen, WAWICRUZ, Wayne, whc999, Zenas | | Most users ever online was 856, 07-06-2007 at 12:19 AM. | |  | 
08-10-2009, 08:22 PM
|  | Puritanboard Sophomore | | Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 569
Thanks: 344
Thanked 105 Times in 67 Posts
| | | Moral and Ceremonial Laws
Some time ago I read a book by Reformed theologian Albertus Pieters in which he denied that there is a distinction between the Moral and Ceremonial Laws saying that the Bible makes no such distinction.
The Chafetz Chaim(A noted Rabbi) in his book on Mitzvot states that the Bible makes a distinction between two types of commandments----Mishpatim(ordinances) and Hukkim(statutes). He states that the Mishpatim(ordinances) are those commandments whose reason is obvious and the benefit of carrying them out in the world is known.eg the laws on robbery, bloodshed, respect for parents etc. He further states that the Hukkim(Statutes) on the other hand are commandments whose reason is unknown.eg the prohibition on pork, the red heifer and the goat sent off into the wilderness. All the offerings of sacrifices are in the category of Hukkim(Statutes).
Would it be correct to state that Mishpatim(ordinances) are the Moral Law and Hukkim(statutes) are the ceremonial Law??
__________________
Jacob Peters
Layman
URC
Toronto
Canada
| 
08-11-2009, 12:32 PM
|  | Puritanboard Junior | | Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,813
Thanks: 248
Thanked 453 Times in 308 Posts
| | |
What about the civil law?
__________________
Jonathan
Audio Engineer
Reformed Anabaptist
Ohio
Moroni's magical glasses of proper interpretation: | 
08-11-2009, 04:53 PM
|  | Puritanboard Graduate | | Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Cali.
Posts: 3,891
Thanks: 1,996
Thanked 999 Times in 572 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by VilnaGaon Some time ago I read a book by Reformed theologian Albertus Pieters in which he denied that there is a distinction between the Moral and Ceremonial Laws saying that the Bible makes no such distinction.
The Chafetz Chaim(A noted Rabbi) in his book on Mitzvot states that the Bible makes a distinction between two types of commandments----Mishpatim(ordinances) and Hukkim(statutes). He states that the Mishpatim(ordinances) are those commandments whose reason is obvious and the benefit of carrying them out in the world is known.eg the laws on robbery, bloodshed, respect for parents etc. He further states that the Hukkim(Statutes) on the other hand are commandments whose reason is unknown.eg the prohibition on pork, the red heifer and the goat sent off into the wilderness. All the offerings of sacrifices are in the category of Hukkim(Statutes).
Would it be correct to state that Mishpatim(ordinances) are the Moral Law and Hukkim(statutes) are the ceremonial Law??  | Jacob,
Certainly, the usage of a particular word in Hebrew may not be universally trapped into one particular meaning.
Cheers,
__________________
Adam B., Wine Country, California, PCA
"I fear not to hold with Junius, de Politia Mosis cap. 6, that he who was punishable by death under that Judicial law, is punishable by death still; and he who was not punished by death then, is not to be punished by death now."
| | The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Christusregnat For This Useful Post: | | 
08-11-2009, 05:11 PM
|  | Puritanboard Sophomore | | Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 569
Thanks: 344
Thanked 105 Times in 67 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyler What about the civil law? | I think the good Rabbi would have classified it under the Moral Law. -----Added 8/11/2009 at 05:11:56 EST----- Quote:
Originally Posted by Christusregnat Quote:
Originally Posted by VilnaGaon Some time ago I read a book by Reformed theologian Albertus Pieters in which he denied that there is a distinction between the Moral and Ceremonial Laws saying that the Bible makes no such distinction.
The Chafetz Chaim(A noted Rabbi) in his book on Mitzvot states that the Bible makes a distinction between two types of commandments----Mishpatim(ordinances) and Hukkim(statutes). He states that the Mishpatim(ordinances) are those commandments whose reason is obvious and the benefit of carrying them out in the world is known.eg the laws on robbery, bloodshed, respect for parents etc. He further states that the Hukkim(Statutes) on the other hand are commandments whose reason is unknown.eg the prohibition on pork, the red heifer and the goat sent off into the wilderness. All the offerings of sacrifices are in the category of Hukkim(Statutes).
Would it be correct to state that Mishpatim(ordinances) are the Moral Law and Hukkim(statutes) are the ceremonial Law??  | Jacob,
Certainly, the usage of a particular word in Hebrew may not be universally trapped into one particular meaning.
Cheers, | Might there be a reason different Hebrew words were used, other than to make a distinction between the 2 types of commandments. | 
08-11-2009, 05:16 PM
|  | Puritanboard Graduate | | Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Cali.
Posts: 3,891
Thanks: 1,996
Thanked 999 Times in 572 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by VilnaGaon Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyler What about the civil law? | I think the good Rabbi would have classified it under the Moral Law. | A similar classification was used by Samuel Rutherford. Quote:
Originally Posted by VilnaGaon Might there be a reason different Hebrew words were used, other than to make a distinction between the 2 types of commandments.  | Depending on the context, it may have reference to the type of response in the recipient of the law, the intent of the law giver, etc. All sorts of factors determine the usage of words.
Cheers,
| | The Following User Says Thank You to Christusregnat For This Useful Post: | | 
08-11-2009, 05:35 PM
|  | Puritanboard Junior | | Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Perth, Scotland UK
Posts: 1,317
Thanks: 257
Thanked 433 Times in 288 Posts
| | | These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.(Lev.26:46) (KJV)
What is the significance of the terms "statutes", "judgements" and "laws", if any, in this verse?
__________________
Richard
communicant member, FCoS
Perth, Scotland UK
His Name forever shall endure;
last like the sun it shall:
Men shall be blessed in Him,
and blessed all nations shall Him call (Ps. 72:17)
| | The Following User Says Thank You to Richard Tallach For This Useful Post: | | 
08-11-2009, 05:36 PM
|  | Moderator | | Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Wrightwood, CA
Posts: 8,606
Thanks: 3,597
Thanked 1,318 Times in 758 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by VilnaGaon Some time ago I read a book by Reformed theologian Albertus Pieters in which he denied that there is a distinction between the Moral and Ceremonial Laws saying that the Bible makes no such distinction. | What he probably means is that our categories of 'moral', 'civil', and 'ceremonial' are not explicitly laid out, but require good and necessary consequence.
| | The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to KMK For This Useful Post: | | 
08-11-2009, 06:19 PM
|  | Puritanboard Graduate | | Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Cali.
Posts: 3,891
Thanks: 1,996
Thanked 999 Times in 572 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Tallach These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.(Lev.26:46) (KJV)
What is the significance of the terms "statutes", "judgements" and "laws", if any, in this verse? | One other thing I forgot to point out (but is illustrated in this verse) is that the Hebrew language was particularly fond of repetition, and repeated itself repeatedly (pun intended).
A Hebraism would be something like:
She was a virgin, neither had any man known here.
By Him all things were made, and apart from him nothing was made that was made.
Same thing is happening in Lev. 26:46: statutes, judgments and laws are the same thing.
Cheers,
| | The Following User Says Thank You to Christusregnat For This Useful Post: | | 
08-11-2009, 06:25 PM
|  | Puritanboard Junior | | Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Perth, Scotland UK
Posts: 1,317
Thanks: 257
Thanked 433 Times in 288 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by KMK Quote:
Originally Posted by VilnaGaon Some time ago I read a book by Reformed theologian Albertus Pieters in which he denied that there is a distinction between the Moral and Ceremonial Laws saying that the Bible makes no such distinction. | What he probably means is that our categories of 'moral', 'civil', and 'ceremonial' are not explicitly laid out, but require good and necessary consequence. | Most scholars follow this up by saying that there were various "clues" for the Israelites, in the law, the psalms and the prophets that some laws were positive and provisional, while others were moral and permanent. -----Added 8/11/2009 at 06:25:15 EST----- Quote:
Originally Posted by Christusregnat Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Tallach These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.(Lev.26:46) (KJV)
What is the significance of the terms "statutes", "judgements" and "laws", if any, in this verse? | One other thing I forgot to point out (but is illustrated in this verse) is that the Hebrew language was particularly fond of repetition, and repeated itself repeatedly (pun intended).
A Hebraism would be something like:
She was a virgin, neither had any man known here.
By Him all things were made, and apart from him nothing was made that was made.
Same thing is happening in Lev. 26:46: statutes, judgments and laws are the same thing.
Cheers, | I thought this might have been the case. They used this repetition a lot in poetry and psalms.
I'll check these words in the lexicon, anyway.
| | The Following User Says Thank You to Richard Tallach For This Useful Post: | | 
08-12-2009, 03:18 AM
|  | Puritanboard Graduate | | Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Cali.
Posts: 3,891
Thanks: 1,996
Thanked 999 Times in 572 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Tallach
I thought this might have been the case. They used this repetition a lot in poetry and psalms.
I'll check these words in the lexicon, anyway. | Richard,
If I'm not mistaken, Hebrew also uses a great deal of repetition in prose. "She was a virgin, neither had any man known her" is used to describe Rebekah in the historic narrative of Abraham's servant meeting her for the first time.
John 1 is also historic narrative that uses Hebraistic repetition.
Cheers,
| | The Following User Says Thank You to Christusregnat For This Useful Post: | | 
08-12-2009, 08:56 AM
|  | Moderator | | Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Wrightwood, CA
Posts: 8,606
Thanks: 3,597
Thanked 1,318 Times in 758 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Tallach Quote:
Originally Posted by KMK Quote:
Originally Posted by VilnaGaon Some time ago I read a book by Reformed theologian Albertus Pieters in which he denied that there is a distinction between the Moral and Ceremonial Laws saying that the Bible makes no such distinction. | What he probably means is that our categories of 'moral', 'civil', and 'ceremonial' are not explicitly laid out, but require good and necessary consequence. | Most scholars follow this up by saying that there were various "clues" for the Israelites, in the law, the psalms and the prophets that some laws were positive and provisional, while others were moral and permanent. | I was simply offering a possible explanation for "Reformed theologian Albertus Pieters'" denial in the OP.
| | The Following User Says Thank You to KMK For This Useful Post: | | 
08-12-2009, 08:57 PM
|  | Puritanboard Sophomore | | Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 569
Thanks: 344
Thanked 105 Times in 67 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by Christusregnat Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Tallach These are the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses.(Lev.26:46) (KJV)
What is the significance of the terms "statutes", "judgements" and "laws", if any, in this verse? | One other thing I forgot to point out (but is illustrated in this verse) is that the Hebrew language was particularly fond of repetition, and repeated itself repeatedly (pun intended).
A Hebraism would be something like:
She was a virgin, neither had any man known here.
By Him all things were made, and apart from him nothing was made that was made.
Same thing is happening in Lev. 26:46: statutes, judgments and laws are the same thing.
Cheers, | If the different Hebrew Words for commandments do not not indicate a distinction between Moral and Ceremonial Laws, are there any specific indications in the OT pointing to such a distinction???
I personally heard Rabbi Tovia Singer from Outreach Judaism(the largest anti-Christian Orthodox Jewish Organisation) say that there is no such distinction between Moral and Ceremonial Laws in the Old Testament and that such a distinction is a Christian Invention.
I thought I struck gold with when I came across what the Chafetz Chaim said. I have just finished reading Maimonides's ""Shemoneh Perakhim ""in which he makes a similiar distinction between the Commandments.
I was hoping to use this in Apologetics against Orthodox Judaism. It never ceases to amaze me how much ""Christian Apologetics"" there is in Classical Rabbinic Sources. You just have to dig.
|  | | Thread Tools | | | | Display Modes | Linear Mode |
Posting Rules
| You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts HTML code is Off | | | |