During the recent discussion on the Bible's condemnation of lying universally or situationally, I was pleasantly surprised to discover that the population of the board seemed relatively evenly divided as to whether or not lying was in fact condemned universally.

With that in mind, I have a question for those who hold that lying is always wrong.

Matthew Henry's commentary on 1st Samuel 21--specifically the last portion, where David pretends to have gone mad in order to escape from Achish's men--suggests that his action was excusable because it was a military tactic. My question is, what sort of deceptive "military tactics" (if any) are permitted, and when? Only during times of war, or are they acceptable during times of peace in certain situations?

The specific example I'm thinking of would be the US Witness Protection Program. Is it right or wrong for witnesses to assume a new identity and effectively pretend to be someone they're not?

Sorry about creating another legalistic "right or wrong" thread, but it's an ethical dilemma I'm running into in one of my storylines. And I want to know what the "right" thing to do would be so as to properly administer consequences.

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Jonathan
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Ohio

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Good luck with this thread. I'm too tired!

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
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It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

I don't see how it could be a military tactic since he was basically alone trying to get away from Saul.

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Rev. Andrew J. Barnes
Husband of Dena
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Pastor of Tchula Presbyterian Church

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I wouldn't know. Since there is no right nation any more like Israel that God will command to take over another I think we should do this and trust God. Then we don't have to lie.
Rom 12:18-21
18 If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. 20 Therefore

"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
If he is thirsty, give him a drink;
For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head."

21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
NKJV

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DonP

So to clarify--in the case of, say, the Witness Protection Program, would you suggest that a Christian should refuse the offer and trust in God to protect him from whatever organized criminal association is trying to kill him?

Well actually I was replying to the part on war and trying to avoid this harder question and let others speak to it first.

I know this applies 1st to persecution, but if we told the truth for the Lord's sake, even at our own risk, it may apply

Matt 10:18-23
18 You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; 20 for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

21 "Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another.
NKJV

So I think I may have to wait until I am in that situation to decide. And I have been very close to that.

Matt 19:But He said to them, "All cannot accept this saying, but only those to whom it has been given: NKJV

Like Corrie TenBoom who said to the German Soldiers who asked her if they were hiding Jews said, Yes they are right here under my feet. And so they were in a hiding place below her.

It mat be situation to some extent, like some Covenanters shot at soldiers coming to take them or their families, some chose not to resist.

I have a gun and were someone to break into my home at night and I felt my family was threatened, I might shoot them, but I plan for and hope to be able to 1st say, Repent in the name of Jesus Christ and stop what you are doing. We are God's children and you will be under sever punishment by God for what you are doing.
I have heard good testimonies of where the criminals have left, esp Mexican catholics, and some who have sat and wept and asked to learn about God.

So I would be hard pressed to give an absolute. I endeavor to obey the command as I understand it

Good you wrestle with these things, God give you peace in your conclusions. I prepare by praying now that my flight will not have to be on the sabbath if tribulation comes. Likewise that God will not put me in situations and if He does that 1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it. NKJV
I will be looking for the way of escape God has made in that day

yes you knew it would be coming - the pertinent part to me is the motive and intent to what is done is often a part of this. So would this excuse to preserve one's life in an unjust taking or threatening of it? Not sure. But it might be right to say I am Fred once I had legally changed my name to Fred. But the question remains is that denying who God made me. Am I my name?

Question 144: What are the duties required in the ninth commandment?

Answer: The duties required in the ninth commandment are, the preserving and promoting of truth between man and man, and the good name of our neighbor, as well as our own; appearing and standing for the truth; and from the heart, sincerely, freely, clearly, and fully, speaking the truth, and only the truth, in matters of judgment and justice, and in all other things: Whatsoever; a charitable esteem of our neighbors; loving, desiring, and rejoicing in their good name; sorrowing for, and covering of their infirmities; freely acknowledging of their gifts and graces, defending their innocency; a ready receiving of a good report, and unwillingness to admit of an evil report, concerning them; discouraging talebearers, flatterers, and slanderers; love and care of our own good name, and defending it when need requires; keeping of lawful promises; studying and practicing of: Whatsoever things are true, honest, lovely, and of good report.

Question 145: What are the sins forbidden in the ninth commandment?

Answer: The sins forbidden in the ninth commandment are, all prejudicing the truth, and the good name of our neighbors, as well as our own, especially in public judicature; giving false evidence, suborning false witnesses, wittingly appearing and pleading for an evil cause, outfacing and overbearing the truth; passing unjust sentence, calling evil good, and good evil; rewarding the wicked according to the work of the righteous, and the righteous according to the work of the wicked; forgery, concealing the truth, undue silence in a just cause, and holding our peace when iniquity calls for either a reproof from ourselves, or complaint to others; speaking the truth unseasonably, or maliciously to a wrong end, or perverting it to a wrong meaning, or in doubtful and equivocal expressions, to the prejudice of truth or justice;speaking untruth, lying, slandering, backbiting, detracting, tale bearing, whispering, scoffing, reviling, rash, harsh, and partial censuring; misconstructing intentions, words, and actions; flattering, vainglorious boasting, thinking or speaking too highly or too meanly of ourselves or others; denying the gifts and graces of God; aggravating smaller faults;hiding, excusing, or extenuating of sins, when called to a free confession;unnecessary discovering of infirmities; raising false rumors, receiving and countenancing evil reports, and stopping our ears against just defense; evil suspicion; envying or grieving at the deserved credit of any, endeavoring or desiring to impair it, rejoicing in their disgrace and infamy; scornful contempt, fond admiration; breach of lawful promises; neglecting such things as are of good report, and practicing, or not avoiding ourselves, or not hindering: What we can in others, such things as procure an ill name.

Would the witness protection plan be lying?
I mean they legally set up new identities for the people...new names, etc.
If that's now their new legal name then saying otherwise would be lying.

__________________
Larry Bray
Elder - Reformed Presbyterian Church of Boothwyn, PCA
Boothwyn, PA - http://www.rpcb.org/
Free Online Reformed Seminary - http://www.tnars.net
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Christian ritual costs nothing and is worth nothing. True Christian religion costs all that we have and is worth everything.

When you wish somebody "good luck" I know you're tired!!

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Ivan R. Schoen, B.A., M.A., M.L.I.S.
Pastor of Maranatha Baptist Church (SBC)
Poplar Grove, IL, USA
http://maranatha-sbc.org

That's what I've been thinking about as well. If one were to legally change his/her identity, I suppose it wouldn't fall under the category of lying any more.

Which, fortunately, provides a convenient loophole for the purpose of the storyline.

At any rate, though, the impression that I'm getting is that while it's possible to legally change one's identity, to pretend in the meantime--while one is still legally himself--that one is someone he/she is not is lying and falls under the command not to lie. Correct?

...umm, well, you get the point, anyway...

-----Added 4/4/2009 at 01:52:16 EST-----

I was going to comment on that but you beat me to it.