*groups hug* simply because my nerves are bare from simply reading the whole thread.

__________________
Andrew DeShazo, Deacon, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"All of us stumble in many ways, but if anyone is never at fault in what he says, then he is mature, able to control his whole body."(James 3:2)

*sheds tear*

__________________
J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

I don't want to be too nit-picky, but I want it to be clear that I am not disputing that God's law is not binding upon the nations; I am disputing the content of that law, i.e., the civil law as given to the nation of Israel is not binding upon the nations.

Sorry, back to the discussion.

__________________
Jon Peters
Member, Reformation Fellowship (OPC) (Roseville, CA)
Folsom, CA

Does God's Law have precedence over Civil Law?

__________________
Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA,
Fairmount ARP Church
Candidate Under Care Pittsburgh Theological Seminary & Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary
"The benefit of deliverance becomes the more precious in the same proportion in which we are brought to apprehend the magnitude of the evil from which we have been rescued"
-- Zacharias Ursinus, Commentary on the Heidelberg Catechism

What is "Civil Law" ??

As for laws relating to citizens, the rights of private individuals, relationships and private dealings, etc.. . . . (civil law,,,right?)

Did not the law of God "invent" or make such laws known to man?

There would be no such thing as "Civil Law" unless the Law of God said so...i.e., unless the law of God made such law possible.

So YES..the law of God has precedence, heck it gave us civil law to begin with.

Note: Good question, and good topic Backwoods Pres.

__________________
Shawn
Orthodox Presbyterian
Denver, Colorado

Open my eyes Lord, that I may behold wondrous things out of your law. Psalm 119:18
http://reformedmoses.blogspot.com/

What is the content of that law? Don't say natural law. That is another way or restating the terms, since God's law and natural law cannnot contradict.

Let me rephrase and I was asking Jon Peters. I am theonomy-friendly Moses.

Does God's Law have precedence over secular law? (Is there such a thing as secular law?)

Theonomic reconstructionists generally accept the neo-Calvinist Kuyperian critique of the secular versus sacred distinction, but yes, there is such a thing as "secular law."

WCF 20:4, "they who, upon pretence of Christian liberty, shall oppose any lawful power, or the lawful exercise of it, whether it be civil or ecclesiastical, resist the ordinance of God. And, for their publishing of such opinions, or maintaining of such practices, as are contrary to the light of nature, or to the known principles of Christianity ... they may lawfully be called to account, and proceeded against by the censures of the Church, and by the power of the civil magistrate.

WCF 23:2, "It is lawful for Christians to accept and execute the office of a magistrate, when called thereunto; in the managing whereof, as they ought especially to maintain piety, justice, and peace, according to the wholesome laws of each commonwealth; so for that end, they may lawfully now, under the New Testament, wage war, upon just and necessary occasion."

__________________
Yours sincerely,


"Illum oportet crescere me autem minui."

I do not see how WCF 20:4 can be said to explicitly make a distinction between God's Law and Secular Law. All it is saying (in a chapter on Christian Liberty) is that there is a difference between the church and state. Not the foundation of the laws themselves, which is my question. Especially since in WCF 19.5 the moral law binds all, irrespective of church affiliation.

That which is agreeable to the moral law of God is to be regarded as God's law for the State, since civil superiors are God's servants in the maintenance of civil order. A law only needs to be wholesome in order to be just. The very fact that WCF 20:4 acknowledges the exercise of the authority of the civil magistrate is God's ordinance, as something distinct from ecclesiastical authority, demonstrates that there is no thought of a regulative principle strictly binding the magistrate in the exercise of his office. This is further confirmed by the fact that the light of nature is expressly mentioned as something distinct from "the known principles of Christianity." Hence the fact that an infidel occupies the office of a magistrate does not void his authority.

Sure but that does not mean there is a law separate from God's Law. Only God's Law is binding and True.

"There is one lawgiver" is fundamental to Christian ethics. The state of the question is, what is God's law for the nations? The WCF is clear in its distinction of the civil and ecclesiastical spheres, in the role of the magistrate as a divine institution over temporal things with no authority to administer redemptive ordinances, and in the use of the light of nature for social order.

Can the state have laws that bind the believer apart from the Law of God?

secular used to have temporal connotations (time between advents). Post enlightenment, it now has spatial connotations. Opt for the temporal instead.

If the law is good, the believer should obey out of conscience to God and not simply for fear of punishment; if it is evil, the believer must obey God rather than men and suffer patiently in doing the will of God. "Good" and "evil" are moral concepts determined by the will of God revealed in the moral law.

I know..!

That is why I asked you to define "civil law"...

(and gave my 2 cents along with the question)

And someone will ask, what do you mean by "the moral law?"

__________________
In Christ's love and service

Mr. Tim Cunningham, Dip. CS (Regent College)
Member, First Baptist Church
Vancouver, BC

------------
"The Reformation was a time when men went blind, staggering drunk because they had discovered, in the dusty basement of late medievalism, a whole cellar of 1500-year-old, 200 proof grace—a bottle after bottle of pure distillate of Scripture, one sip of which would convince anyone that God saves us single-handedly. The word of the gospel—after all these centuries of trying to lift yourself into heaven by worrying about the perfection of your own bootstraps—suddenly turned out to be a flat announcement that the saved were home-free before they started. Grace was to be drunk neat: no water, no ice, and certainly no ginger ale." – Robert Farrar Capon

Slightly important don't you think timmo?

There is an answer to it in the Larger Catechism, to which I gladly point them.

Q. 93. What is the moral law?

A. The moral law is the declaration of the will of God to mankind, directing and binding every one to personal, perfect, and perpetual conformity and obedience thereunto, in the frame and disposition of the whole man, soul and body, and in performance of all those duties of holiness and righteousness which he oweth to God and man, promising life upon the fulfilling, and threatening death upon the breach of it.