This is pretty amazing if you ask me. I wasn't sure what forum to post it in, but it's quite a picture of God's wrath against lawbreakers......

The Tornado, the Lutherans, and Homosexuality :: Desiring God

The Tornado, the Lutherans, and Homosexuality
August 20, 2009 | By: John Piper | Category: Commentary

I saw the fast-moving, misshapen, unusually-wide funnel over downtown Minneapolis from Seven Corners. I said to Kevin Dau, “That looks serious.”

It was. Serious in more ways than one. A friend who drove down to see the damage wrote,

On a day when no severe weather was predicted or expected...a tornado forms, baffling the weather experts—most saying they’ve never seen anything like it. It happens right in the city. The city: Minneapolis.

The tornado happens on a Wednesday...during the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America's national convention in the Minneapolis Convention Center. The convention is using Central Lutheran across the street as its church. The church has set up tents around it’s building for this purpose.

According to the ELCA’s printed convention schedule, at 2 PM on Wednesday, August 19, the 5th session of the convention was to begin. The main item of the session: “Consideration: Proposed Social Statement on Human Sexuality.” The issue is whether practicing homosexuality is a behavior that should disqualify a person from the pastoral ministry.

The eyewitness of the damage continues:

This curious tornado touches down just south of downtown and follows 35W straight towards the city center. It crosses I94. It is now downtown.

The time: 2PM.

The first buildings on the downtown side of I94 are the Minneapolis Convention Center and Central Lutheran. The tornado severely damages the convention center roof, shreds the tents, breaks off the steeple of Central Lutheran, splits what’s left of the steeple in two...and then lifts.



Let me venture an interpretation of this Providence with some biblical warrant.

1. The unrepentant practice of homosexual behavior (like other sins) will exclude a person from the kingdom of God.

The unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)

2. The church has always embraced those who forsake sexual sin but who still struggle with homosexual desires, rejoicing with them that all our fallen, sinful, disordered lives (all of us, no exceptions) are forgiven if we turn to Christ in faith.

Such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:11)

3. Therefore, official church pronouncements that condone the very sins that keep people out of the kingdom of God, are evil. They dishonor God, contradict Scripture, and implicitly promote damnation where salvation is freely offered.

4. Jesus Christ controls the wind, including all tornados.

Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey him? (Mark 4:41)

5. When asked about a seemingly random calamity near Jerusalem where 18 people were killed, Jesus answered in general terms—an answer that would cover calamities in Minneapolis, Taiwan, or Baghdad. God’s message is repent, because none of us will otherwise escape God’s judgment.

Jesus: “Those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:4-5)

6. Conclusion: The tornado in Minneapolis was a gentle but firm warning to the ELCA and all of us: Turn from the approval of sin. Turn from the promotion of behaviors that lead to destruction. Reaffirm the great Lutheran heritage of allegiance to the truth and authority of Scripture. Turn back from distorting the grace of God into sensuality. Rejoice in the pardon of the cross of Christ and its power to transform left and right wing sinners.

__________________
Lynnie

PCA

Central NJ

I have a difficult time (necessarily) inferring judgment from calamities. Piper may be right, but... I don't know.

__________________
Rae W. | Elder @ Grace Central Presbyterian Church | Columbus, OH
Online presence: blog | twitter | facebook

About 10 years ago in Salt Lake City we had a similar event happen. Tornados are not common in Salt lake. Well one August day a storm began to brew over the western section of the valley eventually turning into a tornado.
As the tornado gained strength it moved across the valley to the downtown area where it collided with a homosexual nighclub. Though there was more damage to other buildings and areas of the city the area that was most damaged was the Avenues which is know for it's homosexual residents.


-----Added 8/20/2009 at 10:51:35 EST-----

True it's not wise to say what the Lord's motivation is behind calamity. But Scripture does speak that calamity is a form of judgement and chastening.

Job
31:3
Is not calamity for the unrighteous, and disaster for the workers of iniquity?

Amos 3:6
Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? Does disaster come to a city, unless the Lord has done it?

__________________
John
Member
Christ Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Salt Lake City, Utah
www.christpres.net

Thanks. I hadn't seen that. Here's a short version from KSTP-TV in Minneapolis of what happened.

__________________
Norm
IA PCA

In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will. Ephesians 1:4-5

I would prefer not to diagnose specific calamities with specific sins.

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Earlier this summer a tornado ripped through my neighborhood causing a good bit of damage to some houses. I'm pretty sure they were not homosexual houses. Sinful, yes, but I don't think we can attribute the damage to particular sins. If tornadoes were judgment, I assure you, my house would have crumbled.

__________________
Daniel
PCA
Memphis, TN

I agree Daniel that we have to be careful not to assert calamity with specific sins, however it is not unbiblical to state that calamity can be a form of chastening from the Lord.


Deutoronomy 29:29
29 “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

A tornado can happen anytime, anywhere provided the right conditions all meet at once (hot and cold air colliding, the jet stream, high/low pressure, etc). The tornado would probably have happened regardless if the ELCA was having a meeting. Remember judgment doesn't have to occur in the form of a calamity or natural disaster. Romans 1 indicates (at least from my reading) that judgment can come in the form of silence.

__________________
Chris Bryant
Attending Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA), McKinney, TX
Member of Christ Presbyterian Church (PCA), Tulsa, OK
M.A.R., WTS/Redeemer Seminary, Dallas, TX (in progress)

Agreed. Though I think it is dangerous for us to talk about judgment when calamity strikes. That mindset easily leads to "Huh...I wonder what they did to deserve that"

Tornadoes happen when God causes them to happen. That is the only condition necessary.

That God caused this tornado to strike when it did, where it did ought to give us pause.

Nahum 1:3
The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, And will not at all acquit the wicked.The LORD has His way in the whirlwind and in the storm, And the clouds are the dust of His feet.

__________________
Seth Stark
Member, Communion Presbyterian Church (ARP), Irvine, CA
Biola University, Graduate Student, M.A. - Science and Religion
Seth's Blog

Why is it always homosexuality that God chooses to punish? I think our own unbalanced view of that sin feeds our interpretation of the calamity.

__________________
Jon Peters
Member, Reformation Fellowship (OPC) (Roseville, CA)
Folsom, CA

THis blog, Marc Driscoll, Doug Wilson and so on... it is no wonder I hold Dr. Piper in of no esteem.

__________________
Robert K. "Kelly" Brumbelow
In Inquirer's class at Grace Presbyterian (PCA) Cedartown, GA
Cedartown, Georgia

Dear Lord and Father of mankind, Forgive our foolish ways;
Reclothe us in our rightful mind, In purer lives Thy service find,
In deeper reverence, praise. - John Greenleaf Whittier 1807-1892

Did you read this blog? I'm no fan of Piper, but I'm curious what, exactly, in this blog post you take issue with?

If that is Piper's main point, then AMEN.

But the world will read his article and think, "Piper says God is coming to kill the gays in His Wrath."

I'm not saying that events don't happen under God's providential control, please don't interpret my giving of how a tornado is formed as an explanation as to why it happened. Also, I am not saying that God cannot use natural disasters to pass judgment. The point I was making (probably not clear enough) was that judgment doesn't have to happen with calamity. It can happen with silence.

Well the ELCA did not heed the warning...

Tornado hits ELCA convention; sexuality statement passes | Grand Forks Herald | Grand Forks, North Dakota

__________________
Benjamin P. Glaser, M. Div, Licentiate, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church
Member Fairmount ARP Church
Pittsburgh, PA

Deo Vindice

John Piper isn't making a point about homosexuality, he is making a point about the visible church departing from scripture in a way that can actually lead people to hell:

3. Therefore, official church pronouncements that condone the very sins that keep people out of the kingdom of God, are evil. They dishonor God, contradict Scripture, and implicitly promote damnation where salvation is freely offered.

I guess because God judged Sodom and Gomorrah severely for their sexual perversion. Perhaps this is why there's a greater emphasis on it the example of judgment in Scripture. Not only the Scriptural evidence but societal as well. Homosexuality to its logical conclusion is annihilationism. Homosexuality is a heinous sin and it does stir God's wrath.

Justin Taylor posted some on this as well here.

__________________
Jacob
Sovereign Grace Ministries
Covenant Fellowship Church
WTS M.A.R. in Theology student
West Chester, PA

"Grace renews nature; glory perfects grace." ~ John Owen
"Grace tried is better than grace, and more than grace. It is glory in its infancy." ~ John Flavel
Blog - The Strasbourg Inn

Yeap I read the whole thing. What did I disagree with, the underlying message as it is ultimately espoused in point 6 and his methodology for generating his conclusion in point 6.

So i guess if I take issue with both method and conclusion I can say I take issue with the whole thing.

Let's consider it a wake up call.

__________________
Rich Koster
1689'er
Browns Mills NJ USA
Often Goofy Reformed Eccentric
Romans 7:14-25

.

__________________
Scott
PCA
North Carolina


"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)"
Hebrews 10:23

Didn't God punish Sodom and Gomorrah for their neglect of the poor (Ezekiel 16:49)?

__________________
Scott Roper
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Winston-Salem, NC
scottandjenny.ws

I think has been pointed out, but I'll do it again. His main point is NOT that the tornado was God's wrath against homosexuality. He is saying this tornado was God's warning to the ELCA, in particular, and all Christians to stop approving of and condoning sin.

I, like others here, do not think it is our place to link particular tragedies to particular sins. So I do not agree with how Dr. Piper definitively states the link in the article. However, I think it should be said "perhaps" this is God's warning..., or even "it is likely" this is God's warning..., but to simply say this is God's warning... I think he goes to far.

__________________
Bryan Riddle
1689 London Baptist Confession
Bethel Baptist Church Owasso, Oklahoma

Along with pride, idleness, abominations, etc.

__________________
Raymond Victor Bottomly
Providence Reformed Baptist Church, Tacoma, WA

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Listen, we are not privy to the secret things of the Lord our God. Did he predict this event in Scripture? No. Should we dogmatically presume that what has happened was God's response as a direct consequence of the ELCA meeting? I don't think we should. However, here's what we can agree upon:

1. All negative things that happen in this life (sickness, calamity, disaster, death, etc.) are a consequence of sin. Therefore, there's at least a general way to say that this, yet another natural disaster, is ultimately due to sin. Adam brought it into the world, and we are good at carrying that torch on as well.

Might God have sent this calamity as a means of shaking up these people? Maybe. That's not for us to proclaim, cuz we cannot know. I assure you, though, if that's why God did it, He'll make it known beyond a shadow of a doubt to those people. God certainly sent this act. But can we really say why? Do we need to? No.

We can rest in knowing that God was pleased to bring it. We can be satisfied with calling what the ELCA is doing as an abomination and sin. But the two do not have to be related (although they may very well be). We can pray that the whole thing be used as a means to bring these people to repentance, but not simply a calamity by itself; rather, a hearing of the Word of God, which is much more powerful than any disaster that occurs.

We needn't speak where God hasn't spoken.

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
Facebook - The Calvinist Vent
Board Rules - Signature Rules - Suggestion Box

It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

I don't understand why particular sins can't be linked to particular tragedies if God judges for particular sins. Do we not need to repent of particular sin and not some vague idea of sin?

__________________
Brian Eschen
Ruling Elder, PCA
Pleasanton, California

Quote:
If you study the passage in its context (in Ezekiel 16) that one was one of many of the effects of the cities’ rebellion against God, in addition to their perversion.

As to why this kind of sin (sexual perversion) is “worse” than others, some of the reasons biblically might be that it was a death penalty offense in the Old Testament. It affects more than one person, it is contrary even to nature (against not only God’s special revelation [Scripture], but also his natural revelation- it is obvious by nature it is not normal), its spread would end the human race, God's creation.

In one sense, all sin is equal in that it is worthy of judgment, even eternal death by God’s standard of perfect holiness.

In another, all sins are not equal.

There is a scientific explanation for this storm: the same as what happened in Salt Lake a few years ago -- wind can catch, like an eddy in a stream, creating a roll of wind similar to a wave on a beach. Any strong updraft above it, like you get with any good cumulus building up or thunderstorm, can pull the swirl up to form a tornado. Unusual? Yes, although more common in the west than the east. And these are next to impossible to forecast.

From a theological perspective, I don't want to claim to know the God. Although it does seem that a church is in a particularly vulnerable position when it openly condones sin.

__________________
JWithnell
Member Bethel OPC
Virginia
http://learningyesican.blogspot.com/

It's helpful to understand that God does cause, send the storms.

We cannot perfectly know His purposes as to why He does so.

But, there is no such thing as coincidence. If a group appearing to profess or represent Him is doing so falsely, it ought take it as a sign to repent, relent... before the wrath which is to come.

Exactly, and that's why proclamations shouldn't be made on behalf of God's actions to which the Bible doesn't speak. We may safely proclaim that all sickness, death, and disaster is a product of sin, but we are not free to take each disaster case-by-case and say by whose sin it was brought, unless we're pointing to a specific and revealed case in Biblical History that tells us why.

If this is supposed to be a board that respects Puritans, I'd say its time to reread The Rare Jewel of Christian Contentment by Burroughs.

I read it two decades ago and was amazed at what they called the judgement of God. Every plague, every fire, every calamity, every affliction- sent by God to deal with murmuring hearts and sinful people. So are the Puritans the ones who are wrong, or are we modern, scientific, "cooincidence" thinkers wrong?

If I came upon a situation where 100 people were in a room. 50 heterosexual people and 50 practicing homosexual people which has been struck by lightning and only the 50 homosexual people were killed and the others uninjured I MIGHT feel comfortable proclaiming it as judgement against homosexuality specifically in that action, anything less clear and I would have to abstain from that judgement.

Scott et al,

This is the angle that has been pushed by liberals and the so called "evangelical" left for some time. I hear it often even from within the bounds of the PCA. It is not a true nor complete picture.

First, in understanding the thrust of biblical narratives we see that the Holy Spirit has placed events in Scripture as he did in order to draw out emphases from certain events; they highlight certain things in the story. What is clear in Genesis chapter 19 is that God is highlighting the sexual sin of the inhabitants of Sodom. It is clear that the depravity in that passage is not of pride, greed, or even the inhospitable behavior involved, but the focus is upon the wicked sexual depravity in their midst, even so much so that these men desire to force themselves unwittingly upon heavenly beings.

Second, and this makes the issue much more clear than is ever admitted in most of our churches, Jude 1:7 is explicit in connecting the punishment of Sodom and Gomorrah with sexual immorality and unnatural desires. Jude says that they serve as an example of eternal punishment in hell, because of these very sins.

Don't let the culture bully the thinking of the church. Sexual immorality, and explicitly homosexual desires and behavior, were the reason that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. It reflects the wrath of God against those sins, and it serves as an example of the punishments of hell (no matter how often one might hear the refrain "Well, let's not be so naive. Don't you know that the Bible speaks in metaphors?"). Certainly the pride and greed discussed in Ezekiel 16 are not to be omitted from their list of sins, but neither should that lead us to omit their sexual perversity from the reason for their destruction, in particular when the narrative of Gen.19 and the epistle of Jude place so much of an emphasis upon it.

__________________
Adam J. Myer
Slated for the Jan. 10th Chaplains Basic Officer Leadership Course
Estacada Christian Church
Sandy, Oregon

Soli Deo Gloria

I have a difficult time not inferring judgment from calamities. As was quoted previously, "Shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord has not done it?"

If you were in that church, then you can see judgment - an unusual occurrence striking at a time calculated to stimulate reflection on this very point. You can also see patience - no one was hurt. It might be that people in that room were opposing that measure and are called upon to repent of hypocrisy or self-righteousness or being yoked with unbelievers; but promoters of the homosexual agenda were called upon to repent by the fierce wind, and if they do not, this mini-judgment will be a witness against them.

__________________
Ruben
Moderator
F.P.C.I.
Indiana

Vanities and disguises have covered us, and thereby we are naked; licenciousness hath inflam'd us, and thereby we are frozen; voluptuousness hath fed us, and thereby we are sterved, the fancies and traditions of men have taught and instructed us, and thereby we are ignorant.
John Donne

Board Rules - Signature Requirements - Suggestions?

Calvinistas Conversando
Teología en Mexico
The Howling Wilderness

Here is a link to a blog post by Greg Boyd on the subject. If you are not familiar with Dr. Boyd, he is former professor of New Testament at Bethel Seminary St. Paul, MN, author of many books, and Pastor of WoodlandHills Church in St. Paul.

Boyd is a proponent of the "Open View" of God's sovereignty (God knows all future possabilities, future events are not fixed reality in any way in the mind of God) and while I may disagree with him on this, the blog post on this Piper blog about the tornado may be of some interest to you.

Piper and Boyd have had open duologue and debate on numerous issues through public forum, blog, and book. I became familiar with them both during the years we lived in the Twin Cities.

Did God Send a Tornado to Warn The ELCA? Blog Greg Boyd (Christus Victor Ministries)

I am going to have to agree with Dr. Boyd on this one.

__________________
"Gentle words, quiet words, are after all, the most powerful words. They are more convincing, more compelling, more prevailing." - Washington Gladden

Boyd's "take" is wrong too. Homosexuality merely "not God's ideal"? Boyd takes it too far the other way, by seemingly give calamity no purpose at all. And the statement implying Christ had to rebuke a storm that was due to demonic influence? Whatever.™©® I'd expect nothing less from a heretical teacher anyway. Open Theism is no Christianity at all. If I were forced to believe one of the two, I'd have to go with Piper. Thank the Lord, though, I don't have to do so.

No.

That's the problem with taking verses out of context. And if a full reading 44-63 doesn't help, Jude isn't exactly ambiguous.

__________________
Edward
Deacon
PCA
Texas

Interesting how freely a word like heretic is used in 2009, forgetting or not caring what kind of weight that word carried and the consequences of being labeled as such in the reformation era; many reformed brethren wearing the mark of that label as well.

At any rate, I agree with you that both positions are out of balence with the Scriptures perhaps, but clearly Boyd presents his argument with much greater efficiency that does Piper and I'm not sure Boyd is trying to make a particular point with regard to homosexuality.

If this line of thinking follows then does every catastrophe proceed from God's hand? Or must I interpret which ones do based on their physical proximity to meetings of liberal theology? If I stub my toe this evening, will it be the result of my lack of willingness to judge the homosexual for his sin more harshly than that which Boyd points out; the sin of the financially bloated American Church in neglecting the poor who Jesus commanded we consider?

Open Theism is heresy. And, btw, I don't throw that word around often at all.
Yes. Every catastrophe proceeds from God's hand via His decree. He forms light, he creates darkness, so on, so forth.
Not sure why this portion follows from the belief that whatsoever comes to pass is from the hand of God? The problem is when we presume as to why God has brought it, not if.