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The Law of God discuss Going out to eat on the Sabbath in the Theological Forum forums; Nehemiah 13:15-18-- In those days I saw people in Judah treading wine presses on the Sabbath, and bringing in sheaves, and loading donkeys with wine, ...

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    luvroftheWord is offline. Inactive User
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    Going out to eat on the Sabbath

    Nehemiah 13:15-18--
    In those days I saw people in Judah treading wine presses on the Sabbath, and bringing in sheaves, and loading donkeys with wine, grapes, figs, and all kinds of burdens, which they brought into Jerusalem on the Sabbath day. And I warned them about the day on which they were selling provisions. Men of Tyre dwelt there also, [b:4b4b9fad8a]who brought in fish and all kinds of goods, and sold them on the Sabbath to the children of Judah[/b:4b4b9fad8a], and in Jerusalem. Then I contended with the nobles of Judah, and said to them, "What evil thing is this that you do, by which you profane the Sabbath day? Did not your fathers do thus, and did not our God bring all this disaster on us and on this city? Yet you bring added wrath on Israel by profaning the Sabbath.

    Given the above text, should we or should we not go out to eat with our friends after church on Sunday?

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    Joshua is offline. _
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    I dunno, but I'm hungry right now!
    Josh
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    The Lord doth build up Jerusalem: he gathereth together the outcasts of Israel. He healeth the broken in heart, and bindeth up their wounds. - Ps. 147

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    Since we're discussing all things Sabbath...

    This is one of those doctrines that I haven't studied enough. I am aware of the WCF's stance on it. Yes, Calvin bowled on Sunday...I also know that many people say that we're in the rest in Christ that is perpetual. Then there is the argument from creation. Then there are people that want to abrogate laws and be under love...

    All of that to say: How do these verses get exegeted by the various groups? What would be the strongest interpretation?

    Colossians 2
    15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[1]
    16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

    Confused on Friday - hoping to have it figured out by Sunday (or is it Saturday night?)
    Chris Rhoades -33
    Good Shepherd Presbyterian Church (PCA) Nashville, TN-Under Care

    Vera theologia non theoretica, sed practica est; Finis siquidem eius agere est hoc est vitam vivere deiformem. - Martin Bucer
    ""True theology is not theoretical, but practical. The end of it is living, that is to live a godly life."

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    [quote:c6eac1ead1][i:c6eac1ead1]Originally posted by luvroftheWord[/i:c6eac1ead1]
    Nehemiah 13:15-18--
    In those days I saw people in Judah treading wine presses on the Sabbath, and bringing in sheaves, and loading donkeys with wine, grapes, figs, and all kinds of burdens, which they brought into Jerusalem on the Sabbath day. And I warned them about the day on which they were selling provisions. Men of Tyre dwelt there also, [b:c6eac1ead1]who brought in fish and all kinds of goods, and sold them on the Sabbath to the children of Judah[/b:c6eac1ead1], and in Jerusalem. Then I contended with the nobles of Judah, and said to them, "What evil thing is this that you do, by which you profane the Sabbath day? Did not your fathers do thus, and did not our God bring all this disaster on us and on this city? Yet you bring added wrath on Israel by profaning the Sabbath.

    Given the above text, should we or should we not go out to eat with our friends after church on Sunday? [/quote:c6eac1ead1]

    I do not, and I believe it is a violation of the 4th commandment. Instead of going out with friends, we use our home for hospitality and have people over. The warmth of hospitality makes it worth it even if it is cold cuts.
    Fred Greco
    Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
    Christ Church Blog

    "The heart is the main thing in true religion...It is the hinge and turning-point in the condition of man's soul. If the heart is alive to God and quickened by the Spirit, the man is a living Christian. If the heart is dead and has not the Spirit, the man is dead before God." (J.C. Ryle)

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    [quote:da5ca36d9f][i:da5ca36d9f]Originally posted by crhoades[/i:da5ca36d9f]
    Since we're discussing all things Sabbath...

    This is one of those doctrines that I haven't studied enough. I am aware of the WCF's stance on it. [b:da5ca36d9f]Yes, Calvin bowled on Sunday... [/b:da5ca36d9f]I also know that many people say that we're in the rest in Christ that is perpetual. Then there is the argument from creation. Then there are people that want to abrogate laws and be under love...

    All of that to say: How do these verses get exegeted by the various groups? What would be the strongest interpretation?

    Colossians 2
    15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.[1]
    16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

    Confused on Friday - hoping to have it figured out by Sunday (or is it Saturday night?) [/quote:da5ca36d9f]

    Check out Calvin in the Hands of the Philistines: Or, Did Calvin Bowl on the Sabbath?
    Tom Albrecht
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    For those who are unaware, Tom is right. (and Chris Coldwell's article is great) The legend that Calvin bowled on Sunday is a lie deliberately begun by haters of the 4th commandment and perpetuated by the unaware.

    Calvin most certainly did not.
    Fred Greco
    Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
    Christ Church Blog

    "The heart is the main thing in true religion...It is the hinge and turning-point in the condition of man's soul. If the heart is alive to God and quickened by the Spirit, the man is a living Christian. If the heart is dead and has not the Spirit, the man is dead before God." (J.C. Ryle)

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    I don't think it's a good idea. When we do that, we're paying others to prepare and serve food all day instead of observing the sabbath. Restaurants aren't a necessity. They do not need to be open on Sunday. Jobs of necessity are a different story.

    In Christ,
    Scot
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    Thank you all for the Calvin correction. I'm involved in a study group of around 20 people who are working through the Institutes and this came up last night in regards to the Creation account.

    I now need to go back and inform the others on the findings.
    Chris Rhoades -33
    Good Shepherd Presbyterian Church (PCA) Nashville, TN-Under Care

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    [quote:80063676ef][i:80063676ef]Originally posted by fredtgreco[/i:80063676ef]
    I do not, and I believe it is a violation of the 4th commandment. Instead of going out with friends, we use our home for hospitality and have people over. The warmth of hospitality makes it worth it even if it is cold cuts. [/quote:80063676ef]

    And I'll also add another thought, by buying on the Sabbath, you are aiding that business to employ people on the Sabbath, thereby contributing to their own violating of the Sabbath.
    Patrick
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    Pastor, Grace Presbyterian Church (OPC), Lisbon, NY

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    Ianterrell is offline. Inactive User
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    I don't eat out or buy stuff on the Sabbath either. I try to only reheat stuff I've already cooked too, or make something light like a deli sandwhich if I'm eating.
    Ian Brown
    Attending Messiah's Covenant Community Church.
    Student at Hunter College CUNY

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    I've said it before, I'll say it again. As soon as you make a list of what is and is not allowed on the Sabbath you have missed the entire point of the Sabbath.

    Is rubbing wheat corns in your hand work on the Sabbath? There are a thousand ways that we get tempted into thinking like the pharasees and make devotion mechanical.

    I'm reading a book right now of how the puritan missionaries who went to Tahiti taught strict and sober sabbath observance to the natives. For years nothing happened on the Sabbath and then they realized that the ship Duff they had travellled on had lost a day. They were observing the sabbath on Saturday. They had even preached that the reason one of the men had gone blind was because he are done gardening on the sabbath.

    This isn't to open the debate again (cuz I love you all just the way you are) but if you will follow the regulative princiiple the Sabbath, ordained at creation, has never been changed from the seventh day.

    No matter, whether you rest on the seventh day or on the Lord's day, stop telling others what they can and cannot do on this wonderful gift from our Father, for you degrade it in doing so.

    Good sabbath (yesterday) and a blessed Lord's day (today) to you all.
    When it comes to havoc, I WREAK!
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    [quote:1d8db5bc99][i:1d8db5bc99]Originally posted by maxdetail[/i:1d8db5bc99]
    I've said it before, I'll say it again. As soon as you make a list of what is and is not allowed on the Sabbath you have missed the entire point of the Sabbath.
    [/quote:1d8db5bc99]
    Without the list you lose the whole point. We base the list of do's and don't upon the main purpose of the Sabbath, to worship God, freed from the daily concerns of our normal work. You only become a pharisee by binding more than the Word of God or by obeying the Sabbath legalisticly.
    [quote:1d8db5bc99]
    No matter, whether you rest on the seventh day or on the Lord's day, stop telling others what they can and cannot do on this wonderful gift from our Father, for you degrade it in doing so.
    [/quote:1d8db5bc99]
    I don't know if you realize it or not, but you are making your own list of do's and don'ts about the Sabbath by your post.

    [quote:1d8db5bc99]
    This isn't to open the debate again (cuz I love you all just the way you are) but if you will follow the regulative princiiple the Sabbath, ordained at creation, has never been changed from the seventh day. [/quote:1d8db5bc99]
    If it's not open to debate then why did you post?
    Patrick
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    Pastor, Grace Presbyterian Church (OPC), Lisbon, NY

    "He does well, that discourses of Christ; but he does infinitely better, that by experimental knowledge, feeds and lives on Christ." Thomas Brooks.
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    Bob,
    You write:
    "No matter, whether you rest on the seventh day or on the Lord's day, "


    Is not Jesus Lord of the sabbath? Is the sabbath one in seven or is it Saturday? Can Christ change the cycle of the "1 in seven" from the Saturday to the first day if he so wills?

    Can we as believers have the sabbath (Saturday) and the Lords day?

    Is God a god of confussion? If he is not, was it His intention that we have the Lords day [i:5cc92cf9bf]and the sabbath[/i:5cc92cf9bf]?

    [Edited on 7-4-2004 by Scott Bushey]
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    luvroftheWord is offline. Inactive User
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    Was Nehemiah being a Pharisee when he condemned the Jews for buying fish on the Sabbath?

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    Is it right to debate on the sabbath, Christian or Jewish?

    I didn't want to open the dabate simply because we've debated it. I just wanted to record the fact that some of us follow a different conviction regarding the keeping of the sabbath and the church changing of the sabbath from the 7th to the 1st day.

    Scott, your questions are the usual and correct questions to bring up in the debate but following the implicit teachings of scripture, we do not have the resources to solve the issue this side of heaven. (Just like mode of baptism, just like endtimes scenarios.)

    I DO believe it is important for each church to adopt a stand on these issues and then hold to their polity.

    Most of my friends are Sunday keepers and pretribbers. I love them, their saving faith is evident in the fruit they display and I don't expect God to strike them blind. May He have mercy on us for all the jots and tittles we've added or removed.

    As for me, I love the sabbath, it is God's gift to man. You guys can do whatever you want on Sunday it's the day after the sabbath. But if you are fully conviced that the sabbath is the 1st day then keep it holy.
    Whatever you do, everyday, do it out of honor for God but don't tell me that I can't rub wheat corns in my hands on the sabbath.

    I will take the time today to study the Nehemiah passage and it's context. Thanks for recommending the scripture luvoftheword.
    When it comes to havoc, I WREAK!
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    How you keep the sabbath is shown not only in the big things, like church attendance, worship, etc, but also by the little things you do. Preparing meals, gassing up the car, polishing the shoes, all on Saturday, in preparation for Sunday, may seem ritualistic to some, even to the children of those who do it, but it is very far from being a list of do's and don't's. That's how I grew up practicing the Lord's Day.

    We would never go to a diner or restaurant, or go anywhere that required paying out money. It seemed to us like rules, but my parents always made sure to tell us that it was not rules, but keeping the Lord's Day holy, special, and separate. It was not that we weren't free to do as we pleased; it was that we were free to do as we ought.

    Back then stores weren't open on Sunday. Corner stores were, but the downtown was deserted. Now it's like any weekday, and busier than a weekday. In fact, the times in which a working man can take the time to go to a store has almost been relegated to Sundays, as Friday evenings and Saturdays are now used by the stores to prepare for Sundays, and working hours now include all of Saturday.

    It seems that what happened in Nehemiah's day has happened here as well. The goods are not taken into the holy city on the Sabbath, but rather the trading of goods has infiltrated the Church in a different way. They have taken the Church into the world's city on the Lord's Day. We are given the freedom to do as we please, but are we as free to do as we ought?

    Just a thought. :wr50:
    JohnV

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    I was looking for a good study on the the Sabbath day. I'm looking for something that doesn't just cover when the Sabbath day is or what things we shouldn't be doing, but also talks about what God wants us to do, why he wants us do those things, and really gets to the heart of the matter - why we would rather be doing something else then what God expects on the Sabbath.

    Has anybody read Matthew's article called [u:130ef52d48]"The Lord's Day"[/u:130ef52d48]? I just started reading it, and it looks like it may cover those things.

    Bob
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    Craig is offline. Inactive User
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    [quote:fd23e2804a]
    Has anybody read Matthew's article called "The Lord's Day"? I just started reading it, and it looks like it may cover those things.
    [/quote:fd23e2804a]
    Nope. But will read it now, thanks for linking it.

    Fred really helped convince me about observing the Lord's Day. It is very refreshing. If it were "open" to work, or bartering or purchasing...I'd have to consider how to best spend my time: working on the lawn, or prayer and reading. I can read and pray in clear conscience knowing that the other 6 days I had were spent doing what they were intended for. If one didn't believe in observing the Lord's Day, he would logically have to consider it a waste of a day if he didn't do something "profitable" and make "use" of his time. We get things in order and typically have a roast on Sunday. We are also not afraid of cold cuts and even cereal if we didn't plan out our groceries that week very well!

    [Edited on 7-4-2004 by Craig]

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    [b:7acd9244e7]Craig wrote:[/b:7acd9244e7]
    I can read and pray in clear conscience knowing that the other 6 days I had were spent doing what they were intended for. If one didn't believe in observing the Lord's Day, he would logically have to consider it a waste of a day if he didn't do something "profitable" and make "use" of his time. We get things in order and typically have a roast on Sunday.

    I like the attitude you express. Instead of saying, "I can't do this or that, but I have to do this stuff instead", you say "I [b:7acd9244e7]can[/b:7acd9244e7] read and pray in clear conscience". Sounds like you have the right attitude. Its not something you have to do, its something that you want to do. Its an opportunity. That's how it should be.

    It seems like in our society (and in my thinking at times) that somehow going to a one-hour service on Sunday "fulfills the requirements", and the rest of the time is up for grabs to do as we like (go to the beach, play golf, etc). I wonder where the idea came from that this is all God expects of us or wants for us? If I were a betting man, I'd bet it wasn't from the scriptures.

    Bob

    [Edited on 7-4-2004 by blhowes]
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    I am going to quote Matthew (from his paper):

    "we ought to remember Nehemiah's rebuke in Nehemiah 10:31; 13:15-22. Buying and selling on the Lord's Day is prohibited. Buy gas on Saturday and be prepared for Sunday. Do your shopping through the week not the on the Lords' Day. Devote that Day to Him without the worldly distractions that are upon us through the entire week. Recall that Nehemiah was exceedingly indignant at the people's attitude in buying and selling, and he warned them that they would "lay hands" on them if they did not cease and desist the practice. How then should we act on the Sabbath Day before the Redeemer who bought us?"

    We need to heed this.
    Scott Bushey
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    [b:10fb61a5ff]Scott wrote:[/b:10fb61a5ff]
    We need to heed this.

    A couple of questions:

    For those who do heed this and observe the Sabbath rest, I was just wondering how you occupy your time during your "free time" (when you're not at services) on Sunday?

    If you have families, how much of that time is spent as a family vs individual time?

    For those with children, what is expected of them on Sundays?

    Do you consider the Sabbath day to go from 6am to 6pm or from midnight to midnight?

    Would you consider it wrong to have a church picnic between Sunday services? The ones I've been to were a good time of fellowship, but many of the activities (softball, volleyball, etc) tended to be more fun than "God focused".

    Just wondering,
    Bob
    B.Howes
    Massachusetts

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    [quote:d2c9eea936][i:d2c9eea936]Originally posted by Scott Bushey[/i:d2c9eea936]
    I am going to quote Matthew (from his paper):

    "we ought to remember Nehemiah's rebuke in Nehemiah 10:31; 13:15-22. Buying and selling on the Lord's Day is prohibited. Buy gas on Saturday and be prepared for Sunday. Do your shopping through the week not the on the Lords' Day. Devote that Day to Him without the worldly distractions that are upon us through the entire week. Recall that Nehemiah was exceedingly indignant at the people's attitude in buying and selling, and he warned them that they would "lay hands" on them if they did not cease and desist the practice. How then should we act on the Sabbath Day before the Redeemer who bought us?"

    We need to heed this. [/quote:d2c9eea936]

    May God grant me forgivness for the ways that I have profaned his Day

    [Edited on 7-4-2004 by BrianLanier]
    ^Brian Lanier^
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  23. #23
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    Scott and I were talking about this just a while ago. For those who hold a strict view of the Sabbath, here's a scenario:

    Elder Bob asks Matthew and his wife to go out and eat with him in order to interview them for membership. Matthew goes, knowing full well that it is wrong to go (Nehemiah texts and others helpfully understood) but he also knows that elder Bob holds Calvin's continental view, and does in fact subscribe to it knowingly (he was not just raised on it and knows the difference between the continental view and the WCF view). Matthew, hoping to win the fellow over to his view in time, does not reject his offer, but goes to lunch. During that lunch elder Bob asks Matthew what he thinks about the continental view of the Sabbath. Matthew says that he believes that view is "provably wrong" and that Calvin made a mistake in spiritualizing the 4th commandment, and inconsistently did not spiritualize the other commandments. He presses the fact that the Israelites saw that day as an actual day, and that Calvin and the Continental view, wrong supposes this on the Decalogue in any way. The subject is dropped.

    Was Matthew imprudent to go with elder Bob to lunch in acquiescence when he told him that the continental view was wrong and his was right?

    Should it be a violation of his conscience?

    I believe that the 4th commandment stands. I would encourage maxdetail to read Gillifan, Edwards and Owen on the Sabbath and its change to the Lord's day as recorded in Hebrews 4 and other texts such as Matthew 25, Acts 2, etc.

    In any case, in terms of prudent to win over a brother, do you think that it is lawful to acquiesce to a brother who doe snot necessarily understands the issues surrounding this issue in order to win them over?

    In any case, I have decided to simply stand on the WCF and the Bible on this issue, and not violate the day for any reason, even to win a brother over to the truth. I suppose I should be more concerned not to violate the day, and rather see the church remain in ignorance until a more opportunte time to teach them, than to go out to lunch and have a disucssion with them on the subject. I had, in the past, done this a few times in certain circumstances with those less understanding (ignorant elders, old women who can't be hospitable in their home, ignorant laymen we just met in a new church, etc).

    What are your thoughts?

    Also, in our old Reformed Baptist Church, they woudl OFTEN have ice cream, cake, etc. on Sunday evenings for fellowship. Would serving, washing dishes, etc. be a violation of the day? (This is not a meal, but a snack...)

    [Edited on 7-4-2004 by webmaster]
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    luvroftheWord is offline. Inactive User
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    If it is okay to eat on the Sabbath (not buy food, but just eat in general), then I don't really see how serving ice cream to the brethren is anymore a work on the Sabbath than lifting your spoon to your mouth. I think it would be fine if the ice cream was purchased the day before or something.

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    I see nothing wrong with gathering together to eat as a congregation at church or at another's home. The early church did this alot. It's part of fellowship and I think would be considered more a work of mercy than our normal daily work. Remember, the Sabbath does not forbid any work at all. It is the kind of work which is regulated. Works of mercy are not only permitted but encouraged as part of our Sabbath worship.

    But I would not go out to eat with Elder Bob. Instead, if he wanted an interview I would simply invite him over to my house rather than go out. Then the Sabbath is obeyed, fellowship maintained, and we are not endorsing the violating of that Sabbath by those restaraunt workers. If all Christians did this, then there would be far fewer businesses open on the Lord's Day because it would no longer be profitable. If he insists on going out to eat, then I would arrange the meal for another day in the week and let him know kindly and gently that we hold the Westminster view of the Sabbeth/Lord's Day to be the biblical view.
    Patrick
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  26. #26
    fredtgreco's Avatar
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    [quote:1877216fe2][i:1877216fe2]Originally posted by luvroftheWord[/i:1877216fe2]
    Was Nehemiah being a Pharisee when he condemned the Jews for buying fish on the Sabbath? [/quote:1877216fe2]

    No. The problem with the Pharisees was not that they encouraged or demanded obedience to God's law. The problem was that they believed that obedience to the law gave them standing before God.

    I was struck by this when reading Matthew 23 for evening worship tonight. It contains the verse about the Pharisees tithing herbs. Read it slowly, you probably thought it said something else. (I did)


    Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, [b:1877216fe2]without leaving the others undone.[/b:1877216fe2]

    Christ does not set obedience to the law [u:1877216fe2]against[/u:1877216fe2] faith and mercy and justice. He simply shows the [i:1877216fe2]priority[/i:1877216fe2] of faith, mercy and justice. Not that he does not say it would have been better to have done mercy and justice and left undone the tithing. He said you ought to have done both.
    Fred Greco
    Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
    Christ Church Blog

    "The heart is the main thing in true religion...It is the hinge and turning-point in the condition of man's soul. If the heart is alive to God and quickened by the Spirit, the man is a living Christian. If the heart is dead and has not the Spirit, the man is dead before God." (J.C. Ryle)

  27. #27
    fredtgreco's Avatar
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    [quote:c720402421][i:c720402421]Originally posted by Craig[/i:c720402421]
    [quote:c720402421]
    Has anybody read Matthew's article called "The Lord's Day"? I just started reading it, and it looks like it may cover those things.
    [/quote:c720402421]
    Nope. But will read it now, thanks for linking it.

    Fred really helped convince me about observing the Lord's Day. It is very refreshing. If it were "open" to work, or bartering or purchasing...I'd have to consider how to best spend my time: working on the lawn, or prayer and reading. I can read and pray in clear conscience knowing that the other 6 days I had were spent doing what they were intended for. If one didn't believe in observing the Lord's Day, he would logically have to consider it a waste of a day if he didn't do something "profitable" and make "use" of his time. We get things in order and typically have a roast on Sunday. We are also not afraid of cold cuts and even cereal if we didn't plan out our groceries that week very well!

    [Edited on 7-4-2004 by Craig] [/quote:c720402421]

    Craig,

    Thanks for the kind words. But I can't take any credit. The Spirit had convicted me about it and I try and follow through on what I believe.

    The key is (as has been said) having a proper heart and mind perspective. It is not about what I can't do, but what I can.

    Here is a good example (maybe I've used it before). How would your wives feel (or husbands, girlfriends, etc. as applicable) if you spent your anniversary or their birthday doing homework or catching up on some work DURING a special meal that you had arranged. Now imagine how they would feel if they asked why you were doing that and you said, "well, I could have done it yesterday, but I didn't feel like it" or "I could do it tomorrow, but then I'd have to take time out of my schedule."
    Fred Greco
    Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
    Christ Church Blog

    "The heart is the main thing in true religion...It is the hinge and turning-point in the condition of man's soul. If the heart is alive to God and quickened by the Spirit, the man is a living Christian. If the heart is dead and has not the Spirit, the man is dead before God." (J.C. Ryle)

  28. #28
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    [quote:eb5b26b957][i:eb5b26b957]Originally posted by webmaster[/i:eb5b26b957]
    Scott and I were talking about this just a while ago. For those who hold a strict view of the Sabbath, here's a scenario:

    Elder Bob asks Matthew and his wife to go out and eat with him in order to interview them for membership. Matthew goes, knowing full well that it is wrong to go (Nehemiah texts and others helpfully understood) but he also knows that elder Bob holds Calvin's continental view, and does in fact subscribe to it knowingly (he was not just raised on it and knows the difference between the continental view and the WCF view). Matthew, hoping to win the fellow over to his view in time, does not reject his offer, but goes to lunch. During that lunch elder Bob asks Matthew what he thinks about the continental view of the Sabbath. Matthew says that he believes that view is "provably wrong" and that Calvin made a mistake in spiritualizing the 4th commandment, and inconsistently did not spiritualize the other commandments. He presses the fact that the Israelites saw that day as an actual day, and that Calvin and the Continental view, wrong supposes this on the Decalogue in any way. The subject is dropped.

    Was Matthew imprudent to go with elder Bob to lunch in acquiescence when he told him that the continental view was wrong and his was right?

    Should it be a violation of his conscience?

    I believe that the 4th commandment stands. I would encourage maxdetail to read Gillifan, Edwards and Owen on the Sabbath and its change to the Lord's day as recorded in Hebrews 4 and other texts such as Matthew 25, Acts 2, etc.

    In any case, in terms of prudent to win over a brother, do you think that it is lawful to acquiesce to a brother who doe snot necessarily understands the issues surrounding this issue in order to win them over?

    In any case, I have decided to simply stand on the WCF and the Bible on this issue, and not violate the day for any reason, even to win a brother over to the truth. I suppose I should be more concerned not to violate the day, and rather see the church remain in ignorance until a more opportunte time to teach them, than to go out to lunch and have a disucssion with them on the subject. I had, in the past, done this a few times in certain circumstances with those less understanding (ignorant elders, old women who can't be hospitable in their home, ignorant laymen we just met in a new church, etc).

    What are your thoughts?

    Also, in our old Reformed Baptist Church, they woudl OFTEN have ice cream, cake, etc. on Sunday evenings for fellowship. Would serving, washing dishes, etc. be a violation of the day? (This is not a meal, but a snack...)

    [Edited on 7-4-2004 by webmaster] [/quote:eb5b26b957]

    Short version -

    Wouldn't go out to eat. The elder is wrong to invite you, even from a "Continental" perspective. He is encouraging you to go against your conscience even if he had the liberty (which he doesn't).

    Fellowship food, lunches, dinners, snacks etc. are all fine. The key here is not to see how little we can move before it becomes work, but to avoid setting our minds on worldly things. Eating is a work necessity - how is serving ice cream at church any different from serving a sandwich at home??
    Fred Greco
    Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
    Christ Church Blog

    "The heart is the main thing in true religion...It is the hinge and turning-point in the condition of man's soul. If the heart is alive to God and quickened by the Spirit, the man is a living Christian. If the heart is dead and has not the Spirit, the man is dead before God." (J.C. Ryle)

  29. #29
    Craig is offline. Inactive User
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    [quote:05b4aac6ca]
    Thanks for the kind words. But I can't take any credit.
    [/quote:05b4aac6ca]
    I wouldn't think of giving you the credit, Fred

    You gave me the right Scripture verse to look up.

  30. #30
    knight4christ8 is offline. Puritanboard Freshman
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    Scott . . .

    Where can I find out more about this "lie"? I hold to the Sabbath as the Catechism guides but I have believed that Calvin did this for quite some time now. It has been brought up in arguments and I have not defended him.
    Gregory Goodrich
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    Westminster Fellowship ~ Phx, AZ

  31. #31
    C. Matthew McMahon's Avatar
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    I agree with Fred and Patrick. Such will forever be the case. I have done this 5 times I can count in the past with those ignorant of both their own view and my view.
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    luvroftheWord is offline. Inactive User
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    [quote:c51722d35b][i:c51722d35b]Originally posted by fredtgreco[/i:c51722d35b]
    [quote:c51722d35b][i:c51722d35b]Originally posted by luvroftheWord[/i:c51722d35b]
    Was Nehemiah being a Pharisee when he condemned the Jews for buying fish on the Sabbath? [/quote:c51722d35b]

    No. The problem with the Pharisees was not that they encouraged or demanded obedience to God's law. The problem was that they believed that obedience to the law gave them standing before God.

    I was struck by this when reading Matthew 23 for evening worship tonight. It contains the verse about the Pharisees tithing herbs. Read it slowly, you probably thought it said something else. (I did)


    Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, [b:c51722d35b]without leaving the others undone.[/b:c51722d35b]

    Christ does not set obedience to the law [u:c51722d35b]against[/u:c51722d35b] faith and mercy and justice. He simply shows the [i:c51722d35b]priority[/i:c51722d35b] of faith, mercy and justice. Not that he does not say it would have been better to have done mercy and justice and left undone the tithing. He said you ought to have done both. [/quote:c51722d35b]

    I agree with you, Fred. The question was rhetorical in regards to someone's comments about making lists of dos and don'ts as being Pharisaical. Nehemiah was obviously not a Pharisee.

  33. #33
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    [quote:e8db4a39aa][i:e8db4a39aa]Originally posted by fredtgreco[/i:e8db4a39aa]

    I do not, and I believe it is a violation of the 4th commandment. Instead of going out with friends, we use our home for hospitality and have people over. The warmth of hospitality makes it worth it even if it is cold cuts. [/quote:e8db4a39aa]

    Fred,

    Thanks for your comments on this subject. We have often used Sunday as an opportunity to have folks over for a fellowship meal. It seems to be a common practice even among RP types.

    But I do have a question that has puzzled me. where is such activity permitted in the Bible? Granted, the Scriptures speak of fellowship meals in the congregation at which the Lord's Supper was observed. But I cannot find anything to suggest that private fellowship is permitted if one holds to a strict RP view of the sabbath. We can have such private fellowhip any day of the week, the same as we can work and have recreation on other days of the week.

    Any insight would be helpful.

    Thanks.
    Tom Albrecht
    Grace & Peace PCA, Pottstown, PA.

    "When I find the time, I'm going to sit down and write the social history of bourbon."

  34. #34
    fredtgreco's Avatar
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    [quote:f23bcecf47][i:f23bcecf47]Originally posted by luvroftheWord[/i:f23bcecf47]
    [quote:f23bcecf47][i:f23bcecf47]Originally posted by fredtgreco[/i:f23bcecf47]
    [quote:f23bcecf47][i:f23bcecf47]Originally posted by luvroftheWord[/i:f23bcecf47]
    Was Nehemiah being a Pharisee when he condemned the Jews for buying fish on the Sabbath? [/quote:f23bcecf47]

    No. The problem with the Pharisees was not that they encouraged or demanded obedience to God's law. The problem was that they believed that obedience to the law gave them standing before God.

    I was struck by this when reading Matthew 23 for evening worship tonight. It contains the verse about the Pharisees tithing herbs. Read it slowly, you probably thought it said something else. (I did)


    Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, [b:f23bcecf47]without leaving the others undone.[/b:f23bcecf47]

    Christ does not set obedience to the law [u:f23bcecf47]against[/u:f23bcecf47] faith and mercy and justice. He simply shows the [i:f23bcecf47]priority[/i:f23bcecf47] of faith, mercy and justice. Not that he does not say it would have been better to have done mercy and justice and left undone the tithing. He said you ought to have done both. [/quote:f23bcecf47]

    I agree with you, Fred. The question was rhetorical in regards to someone's comments about making lists of dos and don'ts as being Pharisaical. Nehemiah was obviously not a Pharisee. [/quote:f23bcecf47]

    I agree Craig. Just using the "alley" you gave as an opportunity to "oop"!
    Fred Greco
    Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
    Christ Church Blog

    "The heart is the main thing in true religion...It is the hinge and turning-point in the condition of man's soul. If the heart is alive to God and quickened by the Spirit, the man is a living Christian. If the heart is dead and has not the Spirit, the man is dead before God." (J.C. Ryle)

  35. #35
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    Joseph Pipa (a Hero of the Sabbath!)

    A book called "The Lord's Day" by Joseph A Pipa is an excellent resource in understanding the Lord's Day. I have read it several times, and always come away with more insights. Mr. Pipa concentrates on principles, not lists of "do's" and "don't's".

    He specifically addresses the issue of eating out on the Sabbath, and instructs his readers to ask a few questions, "...is good being done to my neighbor --- physically, and and more importantly, spiritually? What spiritual benefit is there for the waitress in the restaurant who has to work because church-goers are eating there on Sunday? Does your act promote her salvation? Does your act free her to be able to worship? Is she able to enjoy the purposes of the day? The issue is not that she would be doing it whether or not you were there. The issue for you is whether you are doing those things that promote or hinder her spiritual well-being? Apply that question to every decision you make, to every choice you contemplate, to everything that you do, because that is what we all should desire as Christians."

    In response to the common belief that Sabbath-observance equals legalism, Mr. Pipa says, "The Bible calls us to demonstrate our separateness by living according to the commands of Scripture, including keeping the Sabbath. We are not being legalistic when we observe the Sabbath carefully; rather we are demonstrating Biblical separation. Legalism, by contrast, is adding to the law of God...We should note that conscientious precision in our obedience is not legalism.":book:
    praise Him,
    Kristine Ozaine ~ 22
    (Residing in Vancouver, WA)
    Attending Hill Crest Chapel (Portland,OR)
    PCA-girl for 10+ years, and still one at heart!

  36. #36
    daveb is offline. Inactive User
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    [quote:94b2c2bc26][i:94b2c2bc26]Originally posted by ReformedLadyRed[/i:94b2c2bc26]
    A book called "The Lord's Day" by Joseph A Pipa is an excellent resource in understanding the Lord's Day. I have read it several times, and always come away with more insights. Mr. Pipa concentrates on principles, not lists of "do's" and "don't's".

    He specifically addresses the issue of eating out on the Sabbath, and instructs his readers to ask a few questions, "...is good being done to my neighbor --- physically, and and more importantly, spiritually? What spiritual benefit is there for the waitress in the restaurant who has to work because church-goers are eating there on Sunday? Does your act promote her salvation? Does your act free her to be able to worship? Is she able to enjoy the purposes of the day? The issue is not that she would be doing it whether or not you were there. The issue for you is whether you are doing those things that promote or hinder her spiritual well-being? Apply that question to every decision you make, to every choice you contemplate, to everything that you do, because that is what we all should desire as Christians."
    [/quote:94b2c2bc26]

    Thank you for posting this. I never thought of it like that before.

  37. #37
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    Kristine, that is a good point. My husband was recently out of work for almost three months, and we found out it's not so easy to just get a job at McDonalds (or any other restaurant) like everybody says. This is because we refused to work on Sunday: in the city where we lived, there was a church about every three blocks, and Sunday was the biggest day for restaurants with the "after church" crowd. We had quite a few people tell us that our lack of Sunday availability was killing our chances of being hired in the food industry-- how ironic that Christians who would not themselves work on Sunday, but would go out to eat, were the primary cause of a situation where other Christians could not get jobs to provide food for their families.

    I am not sure where to draw the line with this: I have felt guilty about even making the bed on Sunday (after all, is that really a work of mercy?), until I read the account in John where Christ healed the lame man on the Sabbath, and then commanded him to "take up his bed...". He was not to just leave it there in a pile, but to "straighten up" after himself.
    Heidi
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    For he was strong and selfless, and I am tied to me.
    But I have asked my Jesus to live his life in me . . .
    Behold his warm, his tangible, his dear humanity.'
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  38. #38
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    [quote:e5cd7df3d8][i:e5cd7df3d8]Originally posted by a mere housewife[/i:e5cd7df3d8]
    Kristine, that is a good point. My husband was recently out of work for almost three months, and we found out it's not so easy to just get a job at McDonalds (or any other restaurant) like everybody says. This is because we refused to work on Sunday: in the city where we lived, there was a church about every three blocks, and Sunday was the biggest day for restaurants with the "after church" crowd. We had quite a few people tell us that our lack of Sunday availability was killing our chances of being hired in the food industry-- how ironic that Christians who would not themselves work on Sunday, but would go out to eat, were the primary cause of a situation where other Christians could not get jobs to provide food for their families. [/quote:e5cd7df3d8]

    This is an excellent indictment of the modern church, in which each person is so concerned with himself and his own rights that he completely misses the impact on the body.
    Fred Greco
    Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
    Christ Church Blog

    "The heart is the main thing in true religion...It is the hinge and turning-point in the condition of man's soul. If the heart is alive to God and quickened by the Spirit, the man is a living Christian. If the heart is dead and has not the Spirit, the man is dead before God." (J.C. Ryle)

  39. #39
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    [quote:82c4f6ec56][i:82c4f6ec56]posted by Fred[/i:82c4f6ec56]
    This is an excellent indictment of the modern church, in which each person is so concerned with himself and his own rights that he completely misses the impact on the body. [/quote:82c4f6ec56]
    Fred:
    I was thinking the same thing when I read this. We could almost devote a whole thread to this subject alone. I wonder how many other examples we could some up with? How much has the corporate church suffered in our efforts to split hairs on personal insights and understandings?
    JohnV

    John Vandervliet
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    "In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are" C.S Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism

  40. #40
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    [quote:9434d7dea1]
    We should note that conscientious precision in our obedience is not legalism."[/quote:9434d7dea1]
    I liked this line. People today confuse this so much.
    Patrick
    MDiv, RTS Jackson
    Pastor, Grace Presbyterian Church (OPC), Lisbon, NY

    "He does well, that discourses of Christ; but he does infinitely better, that by experimental knowledge, feeds and lives on Christ." Thomas Brooks.
    "Let us not please ourselves that we have deep understandings, but let us shew our understandings by our practice." Richard Sibbes

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