This may seem like a silly question, but I have never seen it proved from Scripture that all gambling is sinful. Can anyone shed any light on this.

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

(a) Waste of money that we are to be stewards of
(b) Covetousness.

See also: Apologetics | Gambling

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Richard
CofE
UK

Thanks for the link, I can certainly see the covetousness argument, though I am not fully convinced that gambling a small amount of money for fun is necessarily a waste of money any more than spending it in an amusement arcade is.

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

i have often wondered this, too. i have seen the argument that it is a waste of the resources God has given you, but if you do it in very moderated amounts, is it any different than paying more money to eat out than you would by eating at home, or buying a cd, or upgrading your car to have leather interior, etc? is gambling, across the board, without exception inherently sinful?

i have yet to see the answer of "yes" to this question be proved logically, soundly, & Scripturally.

(for the record, i have never gambled. lol. )

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Dena (and growing baby #1!)
wife of Andrew (Romans922)
Tchula Presbyterian Church, PCA
Tchula, MS

I am much the same Dena. Your arguments make a lot of sense.

Would gambling large amounts be a sign of covetousness?

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

I would venture to say that gambling large amounts of money could be a sign of covetousness. I would think that in most if not all cases, this would be true.

then we turn into the issue of "well, how much is a "large amount" vs. a "small amount?" so difficult.

which brings us to the issue of, well, we're really asking the wrong question. shouldn't we be asking, "what is the most God-honoring thing to do?"

which also ties into the question of "should i really be spending money on this diamond ring when that money could be used to buy Bibles overseas, etc etc etc." This runs into finding the balance between exercising our freedoms that God has given us & making wise decisions, using what God has given us for the spread of the Gospel, etc.

this line if thinking is something i think about A LOT and always feel stuck. lol.

these are hard questions.

__________________
Dena (and growing baby #1!)
wife of Andrew (Romans922)
Tchula Presbyterian Church, PCA
Tchula, MS

Anyone here own stock, pretty much an educated gamble, people here angry at mutual fund investments or trading?

__________________

Travis Speegle
Redeemer Presbyterian, PCA (Waco, Tx)
Pacific Cross Roads, PCA (Los Angeles, CA)


"When it comes to trustworthy theologians one can usually honor the rule of thumb that the deader the better."-Dr. John Hannah, DTS (of all places)

Not sure, but I think it would certainly be a sign of foolishness...

sort of like that commercial where the Husband is in Las Vegas and he's calling his wife:

Husband: "Honey, guess what? I've learned to double down!"

Wife: "Oh, that's nice dear."

Husband: "Yes, but I lost like 5,800 chips. Here, that's like a dollar!"

Wife: "Back here, that's like 6,000 dollars."

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~ Steven Bradford ~
Member Covenant Presbyterian, Chattanooga, TN

Watson:

Covetousness is a mother sin, a radical vice. ‘The love of money is the root of all evil.’ 1 Tim 6: 10. Quid non mortalia pectora cogis, auri sacra fames! [O accursed lust for gold! what crimes do you not urge upon the human heart!] Virgil. He who has an earthly itch, a greedy desire of getting the world, has in him the root of all sin. Covetousness is a mother sin. I shall make it appear that covetousness is a breach of all the ten commandments. It breaks the first commandment; ‘Thou shalt have no other gods but one.’ The covetous man has more gods than one; Mammon is his god. He has a god of gold, therefore he is called an idolater. Col 3: 5. Covetousness breaks the second commandment: ‘Thou shalt not make any graven image, thou shalt not bow thyself to them.’ A covetous man bows down, though not to the graven image in the church, yet to the graven image in his coin. Covetousness is a breach of the third commandment; ‘Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.’ Absalom’s design was to get his father’s crown, which was covetousness; but he talked of paying his ‘vow to God,’ which was to take God’s name in vain. Covetousness is a breach of the fourth commandment; ‘Remember the Sabbath-day to keep it holy.’ A covetous man does not keep the Sabbath holy; he will ride to fairs on a Sabbath; instead of reading in the Bible, he will cast up his accounts. Covetousness is a breach of the fifth commandment; ‘Honour thy father and thy mother.’ A covetous person does not honour his father, if he does not feed him with money. Nay; he will get his father to make over his estate to him in his lifetime, so that the father may be at his son’s command. Covetousness is a breach of the sixth commandment; ‘Thou shalt not kill.’ Covetous Ahab killed Naboth to get his vineyard. 1 Kings 21: 13. How many have swum to the crown in blood? Covetousness is a breach of the seventh commandment, ‘Thou shalt not commit adultery.’ It causes uncleanness; you read of the ‘hire of a whore.’ Deut 23: 18. An adulteress for money sets both conscience and chastity to sale. Covetousness is a breach of the eighth commandment ‘Thou shalt not steal.’ It is the root of theft: covetous Achan stole the wedge of gold. Thieves and covetous are put together. 1 Cor 6: 10. Covetousness is a breach of the ninth commandment; ‘Thou shalt not bear false witness.’ What makes the perjurer take a false oath but covetousness? He hopes for a reward. It is plainly a breach of the last commandment; ‘Thou shalt not covet.’ The mammonist covets his neighbour’s house and goods, and endeavours to get them into his own hands. Thus you see how vile a sin covetousness is; it is a mother sin; it is a plain breach of every one of the ten commandments.

Ten Commandments | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

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Richard
CofE
UK

Travis, that was absurd. The two are not analogous.

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~etexas~

I agree, but since I have had this debate here before......I refrain from further posts.

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~etexas~

IT has more to do with not trusting in the providence of God to provide.

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N. Robert; Trinity Reformed Church RCA, Holland MI

Once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right."

Some help from the Larger Catechism:

Q142: What are the sins forbidden in the eighth commandment?
A142: The sins forbidden in the eighth commandment, besides the neglect of the duties required,[1] are, theft,[2] robbery,[3] man-stealing,[4] and receiving anything that is stolen;[5] fraudulent dealing,[6] false weights and measures,[7] removing land marks,[8] injustice and unfaithfulness in contracts between man and man,[9] or in matters of trust;[10] oppression,[11] extortion,[12] usury,[13] bribery,[14] vexatious lawsuits,[15] unjust enclosures and depopulations;[16] engrossing commodities to enhance the price;[17] unlawful callings,[18] and all other unjust or sinful ways of taking or withholding from our neighbor what belongs to him, or of enriching ourselves;[19] covetousness;[20] inordinate prizing and affecting worldly goods;[21] distrustful and distracting cares and studies in getting, keeping, and using them;[22] envying at the prosperity of others;[23] as likewise idleness,[24] prodigality, wasteful gaming; and all other ways whereby we do unduly prejudice our own outward estate,[25] and defrauding ourselves of the due use and comfort of that estate which God hath given us.[26]

1. James 2:15-16; I John 3:17
2. Eph. 4:28; Psa. 42:10
3. Psa. 62:10
4. I Tim. 1:10
5. Prov. 29:24; Psa. 1:18
6. I Thess. 4:6
7. Prov. 11:1; 20:10
8. Deut. 19:14; Prov. 23:10
9. Amos 8:5; Psa. 37:21
10. Luke 16:10-12
11. Ezek. 22:29; Lev. 25:17
12. Matt. 23:25; Ezek. 22:12
13. Psa. 15:5
14. Job 15:34
15. I Cor. 6:6-8; Prov. 3:29-30
16. Isa. 5:8; Micah 2:2
17. Prov. 11:26
18. Acts 19:19, 24-25
19. Job. 20:19; James 5:4; Prov. 21:6
20. Luke 12:15
21. I Tim. 6:5; Col. 3:2; Prov. 23:5; Psa. 42:10
22. Matt. 6:25, 31, 34, Eccl. 5:12
23. Psa. 37:1, 7; 73:3
24. II Thess. 3:11; Prov. 18:9
25. Prov. 21:17; 23:20-21; 28:19
26. Eccl. 4:8; 6:2; I Tim. 5:8

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Patrick
OPC
MDiv, RTS Jackson.

"He does well, that discourses of Christ; but he does infinitely better, that by experimental knowledge, feeds and lives on Christ." Thomas Brooks.

I don't think so, some people make huge gambles in stocks in an effort to get rich quick, depressions and Wall Street crashes can happen, thousands of dollars can be lost in minutes on the trader floors.

It is very much a gamble, it has some predictable trends but is a financial risk all the same.

I'm not condemning stocks or risky investments but they fit in the definition framework of gambling if one wished to make a sweeping generalization of it's offensiveness then they would have to reconsider their investments on Wall Street to be consistent.

__________________

Travis Speegle
Redeemer Presbyterian, PCA (Waco, Tx)
Pacific Cross Roads, PCA (Los Angeles, CA)


"When it comes to trustworthy theologians one can usually honor the rule of thumb that the deader the better."-Dr. John Hannah, DTS (of all places)

My *bet* is that the issue is more a matter of the heart, and is not so black and white as some would make it. For example, if the motivation is entertainment, then I am not sure there is much of a distinction between spending $10 on a movie versus playing "quarter, nickel, dime" poker where your maximum buy in is $10. The point being that there are some circumstances where gambling is not sinful.

OK, now I will duck!

Brian

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Brian Bosse
Faith Community Church
Tucson, Arizona
Scientiam Dei

Tell me this isn't a form of gambling, right or wrong it is:
Bloomberg.com: Worldwide

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Travis Speegle
Redeemer Presbyterian, PCA (Waco, Tx)
Pacific Cross Roads, PCA (Los Angeles, CA)


"When it comes to trustworthy theologians one can usually honor the rule of thumb that the deader the better."-Dr. John Hannah, DTS (of all places)

The English word "lottery" comes from the Dutch "lotterij." And actually, the Reformed Churches in the Netherlands sanctioned lotteries (gambling) in the 17th century as a way of helping the poor. Lotteries were held to support hospitals and poor houses, etc. I haven't been able to tell what the reaction of the Dutch puritans (Nadere Reformatie) was to all this, but it was definitely widely accepted.

FWIW.

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Wes Bredenhof
Co-pastor, Langley Canadian Reformed Church
Langley, British Columbia
www.bredenhof.ca

What about card counters? It's not gambling for them. It's a learned skill and they win. In fact, they're so affective that many casinos blacklist them. Is this sin?

The same can be said for the roulette wheel. There is a pattern that can be observed to the point that the "odds" come to the point of almost certain winnings. I know a guy who limits his winnings to $200 when he goes into a casino. He only brings in a certain amount of money, plays the wheel and almost always wins. As soon as he hits $200 he quits. Is this sin?

What if the lottery is 500 million dollars, but the odds of winning are 1 in 250 million? A multi-millionnaire could invest 250 million and ensure a winning number. Would that be sin?

Is this siutational ethics?

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For the Glory of our King,
Joe Johnson
Married up in 1988 and blessed with two wonderful sons
TMS graduate
Preacherboy at Cornerstone Community Church, Escanaba, MI
SoundLife.org

I couldn't resist sharing this story my dear, godly grandmother told me: Every so often (like a lot of us), she received the mailers from Publishers Clearinghouse with claims that she "could be the winner" of a million dollars. Every time they came in the mail, she dumped them in the trash. Even though the mailers were in the trash, they s seemed scream from the trash can, "What if you were really the winner? You could have just thrown away all that money." Her conscience reasoned with her, "If I put a stamp on the envelope, I am gambling that few cents I paid for the stamp that I might win millions. If I did that every time I received a mailer, those few cents will start to add up. That money could be used for something more useful."

For months, this went on. Finally one day when the mailer came, she thought to herself, "It's only one stamp. I'll go ahead and mail it in." So she prepared the envelope, applied the stamp and walked it out to her mail box, closed the mailbox door and put the flag up." The next day, she walked out to her garden to pull a few weeds. What do you suppose she found in the back of the garden? You guessed, the envelope for Publishers Clearinghouse.

She said to me, "To this day, I can't figure out how that envelope got all the way from the mailbox in the front of my house through the fence and into my back garden. It wasn't windy, and she hadn't seen anyone messing with the mailbox". All she could figure was that God did not want her to gamble away even the few cents for a stamp.

She followed up her story with this statement: "It wasn't so much that it's wrong to mail off something to Publishers Clearinghouse for a contest, but for me it was all about coveting that money I might win. God was trying to teach me that my heart needs to be on Him and His work."

I have never forgotten that lesson.

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J Baldwin
Keowee Presbyterian Church, PCA
Pickens, SC
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” Luke 10:27

Check Out My Blog: http://reflectjoy.blogspot.com/

I was also thinking that gambling was a tempting of God. Much as the evil one egged Jesus to jump from the temple so that the angels could catch him, "investing" large amounts of money (particularly if you don't have it to spare) in a "game of chance" while praying that the Lord will rescue you is a fairly equivalent scenario.

The problem with addictive gambling goes beyond the issue of entertainment (e.g., family passing through Las Vegas and popping $20 in slot machines) to yielding control of yourself over to someone/something. I am a non-drinker, not out of fundamentalist legalism, but because my family tree is full of drunks. It never bothers me to see a brother or sister have a glass of beer or wine, but you won't catch me doing it! Similarly, regardless of the merits or demerits of the entertainment value of "small bets," that is something I stay away from like the plague. My limited experience with the annual Rotary club raffle that we are all expected to participate in as a condition of our membership (and which I am expected to belong to because of my position), leads me to believe that gambling would be a VERY bad idea for me. I simply don't like the "rush," the manic feelings, and the despair at losing that accompany even this "innocent" exposure.

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Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Wasnt there a recently in the news, or perhaps a few years ago where a member of a church won a huge lottery and wanted to donate a fewmillion and they told him no.

Getting back to my point, If God punished the Israelites for storing up manna, more than they needed for the one day, the principal remains the same.

Give us THIS day our daily bread.

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N. Robert; Trinity Reformed Church RCA, Holland MI

Once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right."

The Larger Catechism condemns wasteful gaming: does that mean that non-wasteful gaming is OK? How is wasteful defined?

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Ruben
Moderator

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