I've been reading Cicero's De Officiis and in the last book he discusses the relationship between morality and expedience. I don't mean to go into the subject in depth here, but at one point Cicero gives examples of business deals to see whether they are fraudulent. I'd like to propose a similar one here and see what you think.

Say you visit a yard sale or are browsing a website like Ebay and find a great deal. In fact, the person selling this thing must be really generous or simply ignorant of its value. Should one offer the seller a price more equivalent to the product's value, or is it okay to buy something at a "steal" when the seller may not know what he has?

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Davidius
Husband of Emilia
Member: First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham (RPCNA) - Durham, NC
Currently in the process of transferring membership to an as-yet-undecided church in Chapel Hill
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German Literature and Classics

What an interesting question.

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

I think it would show more virtue not to knowingly swindle an ignorant person. Just as much you have to be careful on E-Bay when purchasing items that are obviously below value for any number of reasons, some of which are illegal, not just immoral.

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Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA
Fairmount ARP Church
Student of Theology
Pittsburgh Theological Seminary
Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary
My Blog

"Nothing is sweet to me without the enjoyment of Christ in it." -- Thomas Brooks

My brother once purchased some things at a junkyard for a cut-throat rate. On arriving back home he realized that inside the items he purchased were other items (which he also wanted), but which should have upped the value considerably. As I recall, he went back the next day and explained what had happened, but the junkyard didn't ask for any more money. But obviously he (or my mom!) took the view that you should make sure that the people giving you a good deal know that they are doing so.

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Ruben
Moderator

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I am sure it is not unethical to get a good deal. Of course, each situation warrants its own evaluation.

But, I believe informing the seller that what he has is more valuable than he is asking gives more glory to our Father in heaven.

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Chris Mangum
Presbyterian Reformed Church of Charlotte
student, GPTS
.357 Mangum

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. James 1:27

Benjamin gives a very good answer. Ebay is really the open market at work. I wouldn't be concerned about making too good of a deal in that venue. A garage or yard sale? Listen to your conscience and do what is right.

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Bill Brown
Elder
Grace Baptist Church
Anne Arundel County, Maryland

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

I don't want to reduce a parable to merely understanding business ethics...but in the parable, it doesn't seem like the merchant felt the need to tell the owner "hey, there's an incredibly valuable pearl on the land...please be aware so you can charge me for the value of the pearl as well".

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Craig French
Married and father of a beautiful daughter.
Member of Christ The Word, PCA
Toledo, OH

MY BLOG

I think I'm going to go with the dissenting view on this one, though I'm not sure if I'm serious or as a devil's advocate.

In the yard sale example, I might operate from a simple principle: I have no moral obligation to do other people's research for them.

It is their item, and they can place it for sale for any price they wish, as that is the prerogative of any owner (unless they're in an actual business and Congress is still in session, in which case they can only charge what the almighty legislators think is reasonable, else it's "gouging." Business owners don't have property rights, but the yard-saler does).

There are facts of life, and the more we shield people from the consequences of poor action, the more it will breed. This is a small-scale version of a type of economic 'moral hazard.' The market will teach lessons that could prove very valuable, in ways that will not be forgotten. It might even be best to buy it at the deal price, and then inform the seller of its real value just before leaving with it. The seller will potentially be better off in the future, and more inclined to figure out what he's doing before he does it.

If you simply inform him of the actual value, and he has no felt loss from the encounter, he is far more likely to forget the moral of the story and continue to do himself harm in the future.

Also, a yard sale is inherently an admission by any seller that they do not particularly want to receive the market value of a product, but that they simply want to get rid of it very quickly and gain a little in the process. To buy at the "deal" price is fully in-line with the purpose of the sale itself.

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Jeremy Gage
First Baptist Church
Durham, NC

"No heart can conceive that treasury of mercies which lies in this one privilege, in having liberty and ability to approach unto God at all times, according to his mind and will." - John Owen

That is a good observation that got me thinking. I'm not sure if that parable can be taken that far in this respect, but another one seems directly applicable:

When the guy hires servants in the morning, mid-day, and evening to work for him and pays them all the same, he felt no need to tell the sellers of their labor, "Hey, just so you know, odds are your labor will fetch a much higher price (per unit of work) later today." No, he just made an agreement that was agreeable to them both, and the laborer's lack of knowledge (relative to the employer) is not moral deficiency in the employer.

Paying someone the price that they ask for an item is not a "swindle".

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Kevin Rogers
Sovereign Community Church, PCA
Moncton NB

In the hypothetical yard sale situation, I would say the buyer has a responsibility to inform the seller.

As we all know, the Lord taught us to do unto others what we would have them do unto us. I personally would want someone to tell me if I had a baseball card worth $10,000 priced at $1.50.

The eBay situation would be a little harder to tell, since the seller may have just set the price low anticipating the price to rise as buyers bid on it. So, I guess it would be a case of contacting the seller to make sure they know what they are doing.

Good post.

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Taylor Otwell
Member -- Oak Cliff Baptist Church
Fort Smith, Arkansas, USA

Did we ever hear any cry out on their deathbed that they have been too holy, that they have prayed too much, or walked with God too much? – Thomas Watson, The Godly Man’s Picture

All right, make it a little more complicated. There is a yard sale, and it is obvious that the condition of the family is one of desperately selling everything they own to meet some crushing financial burden. But, they have an original Monet sitting on a lawn chair with one broken arm --price tag $5.00. Do you tell them then?

Hey! Are you allowed to change the terms on my thread?

Seriously, though. I hate the threads where the reasoning is guided by ridiculously unlikely circumstances. The situation is simple and probably not very uncommon: regular yard sale, regular folks, and a steal of a deal. I think that keeping the discussion there would actually be beneficial for the average person.

I don't know if I am understanding this correctly, but I think you are asking should the buyer inform them even though they are charging way too much for the lawn chair...???

I say yes, the buyer should tell them. No matter what evil they may have committed, we cannot return evil for evil.

Unless you are willing to call getting a good deal theft, though, I think you have to acknowledge different aspects that lay a claim on you. If a thrift store is selling something valuable for cheap, you know they didn't pay anything for it and no one is losing by you gaining. In the situation of a desperate antique-store owner, however, where it may not be a concern of strict justice, it is a concern of charity.

My provisional answer, as I watch how the thread unfolds, is that it is not unjust to get a good deal, because the person set the price and you paid them the price. But if you know that they are in hard circumstances, and selling something for way under value, the Golden Rule, the dictate of charity, would be to let them know about it. I've never thought much about applying the Golden Rule to corporations, though.

Oh, P.S. Do you see my tagline? It means what you think it means.

I think it would be a swindle to knowingly purchase something that you know is worth a good bit more than the person is selling it for at the "yard sale". I would think you are at least under obligation to inform the person of the real price of an object. If they do not care then it would be fine to purchase at that price. But if a person is ignorant it would be unethical to take advantage of that ignorance for your own benefit.

"evil for evil" ??? Now you are just being silly.

True story.


My dear wife visits a yard sale. She sees a large (very large) assortment of Thomas & Brio train pieces in a box marked $10. She purchases said box. At the time that she pays for this item the owner of the aforamentioned item laments all the money that was spent buying these toys for kids who never used them.

My dw googles these items & finds that they are "worth" over $500 if sold on ebay. She then throws them in the train box with all of the other trains.

Fast forward to today; the toys have been well used by several kids & would no longer bring even 50 bucks on ebay.

Question. What were the items "worth"?

Some have theorised that these items are worth the "maximum price paid, by anyone, anywhere". This is silly.

Any item for sale is worth what the buyer & seller freely agree it is worth. Period. Full stop. End of sentence.

I would never have paid 500 bucks for toys that wear out. i would have paid $10, $20, $40, $50 but not $500! So the trains are not "worth" $500, to me! The fact that a (nonexistent) "buyer at $500" may exist is not a factor in this transaction.

A "potential future purchaser at a higher price" DOES NOT EXIST! You may find such a person, later, after advertising, after spending time & money, BUT at the time of the original transaction, the do not exist.

If I attend an auction & I buy $1000 worth of widgets , based on my belief that I will later find a buyer of these widgets at $1200, have I defrauded the final puchaser of widgets of $200?

Any one who sais "yes" to the previous question is a crank, on the same level as a person who believes that "cars can run on water, if only oil companies would let them!"

"worth" is relative.

Do you really mean that you have an obligation to find the highest price offered for any item before you buy it?

To a starving man, a bag of rice is "worth" his house. Does this mean that you must pay 150k for a bag of rice?

If you were accidentally selling an extremely valuable Van Gogh for cheap and you met you on the other side of the table and the other you was privy to it's value, would you tell you and recommend a better price? You bet you (pun)! That would be love!

Now, I take Christ at his word in deals. "Give what ever they ask" I give them what they ask or say no. That's my rule. No, "10 for that you must be mad!" (LoB quote).

My conscience is 100% clear when I do that and the other guy (and here's the kicker) I believe has a clear conscious about its value when he set the price. I will not second guess his heart. But if it's outrageous and I would have a bad conscious, as in my above example, love takes a different form by my humbly explaining the worth of the item for his benefit (not mine except a clear conscious - invaluable).

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Bryan Wiley
Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
Reformed Baptist Church
Louisville, Kentucky

It really depends upon the situation. And I don't say this lightly.

If we were dealing with a family in straights and they had a Monet marked at $5, most likely the Monet is a fake (you'd have to REALLY know what you were talking about and have it professionally examined to make that kind of claim) or it would be a kindness to ask or tell them about it before purchase.

What the "highest ebay value" is doesn't count. The sad thing about ebay is that it is a form of intentionally "upping" the value to amounts that the items truly are not worth. Everyone that goes yardsaling, sells it to someone else for a bit more, who sells it to another for a bit more than that, and so on and so forth (the Thomas trains being a prime example...ebay has created a hoard and then scalp for 10-50x's the amount market on certain items). I don't like ebay for a number of reasons, this is one of them. I refuse to parti