This thread is not to argue about images. This board has a policy that is in agreement with the historic position, so please let's not use this thread to argue about that here.

My question is: If a person is surprised by someone wearing a image of Christ on a tee shirt, have they both sinned? That is, has the one who wore the shirt and the person who simply happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. I ask because I have recently been told the the WCF clearly teaches that if a person even views a image then that person has to repent because of the sin of breaking the 2nd commandment.

I think that sin comes from our own heart. Can anyone please give me an example of a place in the bible that would support the fact that another person could cause (not tempt) me into sin? If this extreme view is correct couldn't a person camp outside my house and cause me to sin every time I walked outside?

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Alan Hughes
PCA
Lake Zurich, Illinois

If you think I'm a Hyper-Calvinist, God planned that thought before the foundation of the Earth. If you try to tell me that God only planned some things and not all things, then your problem is with God not me.

What would your answer be if you saw someone wearing a t-shirt with the image of a naked woman on it? Did the wearer of said shirt cause you to sin?

Personally, I don't know. I look forward to reading the responses.

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Joel Lee
Redeemer Hoboken Church (attending)
Hoboken, NJ

I would have answer that by asking another question. Would seeing someone stealing cause you to sin? No and neither would seeing someone else's sin of putting up Christ's image. Your heart is right on this matter not the person showing His image.

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sarah
WI
OPC
My Pastor's Sermons: Mark Jenkins...he's awesome!!!

Another "question for an answer" might be, if you drove by a Church that has a cross on it's steeple, would it be a sin for you to visually see the cross? No. Would it be a sin for you to place a cross on your own Church's steeple? Yep.

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Kevin - PCA - Mississippi

"What, for some, is sin, others do to the glory of God. And the good Dr. Pentecost's remarks notwithstanding, I intend to go home tonight and smoke a cigar to the glory of God. It is a kind of incense drifting to Heaven." - Charles Spurgeon

"Thanks be to God for His indescribable gift!" - 2 Corinthians 9:15

I am inclined to answer no on this question, simply by thinking of the hypothetical scenario in which Jesus was confronted by a purported image of God. There is no way to say that He could have sinned in such a scenario; that He happened not to come across such an image during His thirty-three years is not sufficient to eradicate the problem.

In other words, if simply viewing a purported image of God were enough to cause sin, then it is not the case that Jesus was unable to sin. Jesus was unable to sin; therefore simply viewing a purported image of God is not a sin in itself. This argument seems pretty sound to me.

But of course, more distinctions have to be made to understand the scenario: what is the threshold when one goes from not sinning to sinning? It's clearly true that some people sin when they see an image of God, and if it's possible not to sin when viewing one, then some threshold must exist. I would contend that it's similar to looking at an attractive girl, to go off of Joel's example: seeing her at first would not cause sin, but it depends on how one acts next.

Otherwise, I'm stumped as to how exactly we must act regarding a purported image of God in order to sin...maybe if we think that it accurately represents God, or if we reverence the picture? The former would occur only if we permitted the image ourselves, whereas the latter might occur in someone who professes opposition to images.

I don't know...that's the end of my train of thought.

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Ben Maas. . . . .Facebook
In college, attending First Presbyterian Church (PCUSA), Ada, OH, and
Belle Center Reformed Presbyterian Church (RPCNA), Belle Center, OH
When at home, attending Covenant Presbyterian Church (OPC), Mansfield, OH

“Prayer is as natural an expression of faith as breathing is of life.”
-Jonathan Edwards-

NO.

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Kevin Rogers
Sovereign Community Church, PCA
Moncton NB

Kevin you are stealing my usual answer! Don't tell me that my laziness is catching!

Well since there are no images of Christ in existence, then I submit one can not see said non-existing images. Hence, one cannot sin by seeing images that don't exist.

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Josh Hicks, Chloë's Dad
Christ Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCGA
Facebook - The Calvinist Vent
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It is God that multiplies our sorrows.... God, as a righteous Judge, does it, which ought to silence us under all our sorrows; as many as they are, we have deserved them all, and more: nay, God, as a tender Father, does it for our necessary correction, that we may be humbled for sin, and weaned from the world by all our sorrows; and the good we get by them, with the comfort we have under them, will abundantly balance our sorrows, how greatly soever they are multiplied. - Matthew Henry

You'll conveniently notice that I inserted "purported" before each one. I remember your response in the other images of Christ thread.

I noticed that, Ben. My response was to the title of the post that asks, "Does seeing a image of Christ cause sin?"

Ah. Well, I was just being obnoxious anyway.

Obnoxious is my middle name. But I like to be obKNOXious too.

Who doesn't?

I've never heard it put that way before. Fascinating.

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Mark Maney
Edmonton Chinese Baptist Church
Master of Theological Studies
Master of Arts (Cross Cultural)
Trinity Western University, ACTS Seminaries
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

Hmmm... that answer kinda wraps this one up. Everybody ready to go have a beer?

Now that is a great subject for another thread! Is a cross on a church steeple a sin?

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Lance G. Marshall
Pastor
Georgetown, Indiana

I find it strange that seeing Jesus is just as bad as seeing prngraphy.

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

As long as you don't 'make' the image or 'bow to it and worship it' then you are ok.


Josh, I thought your middle name was 'Wade'?

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Bob Vigneault C.O.L, L.E., G.E, Dr.O.P., O.U.T.
The Heartbeat of Heaven (blog)
Deacon/Christ Presbyterian Church, Janesville, WI OPC www.christ-opc.org

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Mary K. Baxter would likely disagree

Why would it be a sin for a church to have a cross on steeple?

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Thomas Brooks
Reformed Baptist
Chaplain, US Army

It depends on the reaction that your heart has to the image.

If one is wearing a pornographic image on their shirt and you begin to lust, it's sin.

If one is wearing a picture of Jesus on their shirt and you begin to think the image is something spiritually special, then it's sin.

If you see someone stealing and you think to yourself, "hey, that's a good way to make a buck"...then you've sinned.

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Larry Bray
Elder - Reformed Presbyterian Church of Boothwyn, PCA
Boothwyn, PA - http://www.rpcb.org/
Free Online Reformed Seminary - http://www.tnars.net
-----------------------------------------------------
Christian ritual costs nothing and is worth nothing. True Christian religion costs all that we have and is worth everything.

He didn't say it was... his point was that the t-shirt wearer isn't the effectual cause of your sin, whatever is on the shirt.

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Todd K. Pedlar
member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA
http://inprincipiodeus.solideogloria.com
http://puritanwisdom.blogspot.com

"As God did not at first choose you because you were high, He will not now forsake you because you are low."
John Flavel in Keeping the Heart



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Rev. Andy Eppard
Associate Minister
First Cumberland Presbyterian Church
Springfield, MO

When I was in Bangkok, Thailand, I visited the temple near the royal palace where they keep the Emerald Buddha, an especially venerated image to Thai Buddhists. I also saw multiple images of Buddha in touring other shrines. I did not worship or ascribe any deity to the images I viewed. My visits were for educational purposes, to understand the history and culture of the Thai people, and their dominant religious tradition.

One might visit the mediaeval cathedrals of Europe with a similar intent, though they display purported images of “Christ.”

I never saw the Gibson film, “The Passion of the Christ.” I have no desire to see it and warned others against its viewing. However, I can imagine someone viewing such a film for the purpose of understanding idolatrous religious propaganda, that they might better respond to it. Of course, one should consider if such vivid and emotional images may leave unforgettable and damaging pictures in his mind. Thus, on should only consider viewing such if they are fairly certain they can maintain a degree of detachment, and are not especially vulnerable in this area. I can imagine it would be more dangerous for a former Roman Catholic to view “The Passion,” as well as the young and impressionable. I’m in no way condoning viewing it as entertainment or as an act of religious piety.

Seems to be a matter of intent. Does one intend to display an image of Christ or any other person of the godhead? Viewing other’s false images without attaching the identity of God or Christ to such image can not be sin; though it may be a temptation, and dangerous for many.

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Glenn Ferrell
Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Boise, Idaho

http://sovereignredeemer.org

http://www.sermonaudio.com/source_de...formationidaho


Nec Tamen Consumebatur


The duty of magistrates...extends to both tables of the law, ... those laws are absurd which disregard the rights of God, and consult only for men. - Calvin, Institutes, IV:20:9

No. Intent is the motivator here. I like what James says:

Turning the corner and running into someone who is wearing a tee shirt with the image of Christ on it is spontaneous. There was no time for temptation or it's prerequisite, lust. If your conscience is sensitive to such things, then pray for the person wearing the tee shirt. If you're feeling really bold, inquire as to their understanding of the second commandment.

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Bill Brown
Elder
Reformed Baptist
Maryland

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Visit my BLOG Theology for the Rest of Us

I seem to remember Paul being thrown into a religious fit when perusing idols...

Jesus is not being equated to the sin of pornography....the sin of idolatry is.

My thoughts about just viewing an image of Jesus being sin is that is pushing legalism to the max!!

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Nancy L./ www.foundersbaptist.org
Spring, TX

Your will, Lord Jesus Christ! Nothing more... nothing less... nothing else.

Friends,

Humbly, I submit this is the import of the matter:

1. The 2nd Commandment, amongst other directives, commands us that worship the right God rightly. Amongst said worship practices, there should be no images made that are intended to depict, portray, or otherwise represent the God of Scripture.

2. That being noted, a lot of the weight is behind the intentions of the person who is drawing, painting, etc. Are they wanting to portray, depict, and otherwise represent the God with their picture (whether it be a European, African, or Asian man)? If so, then in the creation thereof, and regardless of their sincerity, they have violated the 2nd Commandment.

3. However, if I'm walking along and see some mural on a church that is a purported image of Christ, am I guilty and corrupted by merely seeing it? No, not necessarily. Now, if for some reason I attach myself to that image and liken it as to be Christ, etc. then yeah, I'm guilty of idolatry. But if not, then no, I'm not.

4. So, then, we see that the 2nd Commandment, amongst other good things, tells us we should not make images, and if there are some, we shouldn't worship them.

What time (religous fit) are you thinking of? Because I think of Paul truthfully explaining idols to the people at Mars Hill but I do not remember him getting to the point and saying, "and seeing the idol of the unknown God made me sin."

The only problem to your argument is that Christ is the only one who has seen the Father. Even if you were to be "hypothetical" about such a matter you still miss the point that the only person who can and has seen the face of the Father is His only Son. Therefore, the entire "problem" of the second commandment doesn't matter in this context.

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Andrew Cunningham
From:Reno, NV Currently: San Deigo, Camp pendleton
Attending:seeking a church in San Diego area
"by His scourging we are healed" Isaiah 53:5
"Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin" Psalm 51:2

no

__________________
Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)

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Wow, that is stiltedly wooden, verbose, and wordy, Dennis.

I would say no too, I have one above my couch and I look at it and don't sin.

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Doug
Baptist
Hemet, Ca
Old Time Radio Podcast

I was referring to an instance in which someone else constructed a purported image of God and showed it before Christ. That Christ would know what the Father looks like would only confirm to him that such an image is falsely representing God.

Why's it there? Why does it remain?

Because that's where it looks good and it was my Dad's.

Just want you to know that the face of Jesus on a fried potato just sold on ebay last week for 16 bucks.

Now here is his image on a raw potato:


jesus_in_potato.jpg

Good thing we are reformed and don't think Mary is our sinless co- redemptress, because we can look at her on a grilled cheese sandwich that sold for TWENTY EIGHT THOUSAND DOLLARS!!!!!!!!

BBC NEWS | Americas | 'Virgin Mary' toast fetches $28,000

I am broke around here....I sure hope I don't see Jesus on my toast or its gonna be powerfully tempting to head over to ebay

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Lynnie

PCA

Central NJ

I think Glenn was asking you to go a little deeper in considering the question seriously...

I do and I have settled it for me and my family, I find nothing wrong with it and it is one of the few things left from my Dad