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The Law of God Discussions relating to the 10 Commandments, uses of the Law, etc.
Oh how I love your law! It is my meditation all the day. (Ps. 119:97)

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Old 09-25-2005, 09:57 PM
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Did Jesus preach the Law or the Gospel?

In considering certain aspects of Jesus' teaching, I am confused about what His true message was on more than one occasion.

Was He preaching the Law in the sense that what He was saying was perfectly right and true, and if anyone wants to be found blameless before God that he must act in strict accordance with the Law?

Or-
Was He preaching how His true followers were to follow Him?

For example, He said that "our righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees." He said "blessed are the pure in heart."

The reason it is confusing for me is because so much of the time it seems as if what He was implying was that "only those with inherently good natures" would ever be worthy of being saved, which I know is impossible and in direct conflict with so much of the NT.

When He told the rich young ruler, "One thing you still lack: go and sell everything you have and give the money to the poor," it seemed as if He was showing this man where he was not in compliance with the Law, but at the same time He did not offer "Himself" as being this man's only hope (as if He was not "calling" him to salvation).

Did Jesus preach the Law "publicly" and the Gospel only "privately" (meaning to those to whom it was ordained)?
I'm getting this sense of disconnect in His message as I read thru the Bible because His message was often "hard", and I'm having trouble reconciling that with the "free" offer of the Gospel.

Who can help me out???
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Old 09-25-2005, 10:33 PM
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He preached both. And we must also. The law is the standard all must live by, both believers and unbeleivers. Our failure to keep it drives us to Christ for forgiveness, repentence, and grace to keep the law from the heart. As unbelievers, the law condemns us befor our rightoues Judge. As believers, the law teaches us how to please our Father, a relationship, which only Jesus' perfect obedience and atoning death on our behalf could secure for us.
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Old 09-25-2005, 10:45 PM
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The Sermon on the Mount is both an exposition of the law ('you have heard it said...but I say unto...') and a gracious invitation ('Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find;...how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?').

The One who said 'Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect' also said 'with men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.'

He who said 'Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand' also said 'Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.'
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Old 09-26-2005, 05:28 AM
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The law brings us to knowledge of sin... it's integral to the Gospel.
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Old 09-26-2005, 07:05 AM
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Old 09-26-2005, 07:35 AM
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Jesus was the emboidiment of both the Law and the Gospel.
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Old 09-26-2005, 08:39 AM
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Thanks for the replies so far, Gents.
But when Jesus preached the Law, except for perhaps a couple of examples, He did not do so in a way which said to the people, "Now I know that you'll never be able to pull it off, so trust in my perfect completion of the Law for you!"

It seemed that He didn't even so much as hint at the above. He just gave strict exposition and left the people to attempt it. For example, with the rich young ruler, he went away sad. Jesus did not apply the Gospel at that point, even though the man was shown his sin thru the Law.

Why such a mixed message? Was it simply because to those He was speaking was not given to be part of the Kingdom?
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Old 09-26-2005, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by alwaysreforming
Thanks for the replies so far, Gents.
But when Jesus preached the Law, except for perhaps a couple of examples, He did not do so in a way which said to the people, "Now I know that you'll never be able to pull it off, so trust in my perfect completion of the Law for you!"

It seemed that He didn't even so much as hint at the above. He just gave strict exposition and left the people to attempt it. For example, with the rich young ruler, he went away sad. Jesus did not apply the Gospel at that point, even though the man was shown his sin thru the Law.

Why such a mixed message? Was it simply because to those He was speaking was not given to be part of the Kingdom?
One must understand that the law does not state what a man, in and of himself can do, but it states what a man ought to do. This is the fact that Jesus was always pointing. The rich man went away saddened because he had many riches that he did not want to give up. He viewed the treasure on earth as more important that the heavenly treasure.
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Old 09-26-2005, 10:53 AM
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Don't you know that Jesus' teaching on the Law was for the Jews in the kingdom age? OOOPS! Sorry, some of my former dispensationalism coming back to haunt me.

It seems to me that Jesus' point was the same as the point of the original giving of the Law - to show the standard of God's righteousness. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect." The result would be that we would recognize that we fall short. This is step 1 in gospel preaching.
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Old 09-26-2005, 11:23 PM
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Douglas,

Though I think you mean differently I would disagree with your choice of wording. Preaching the Law is step 1 and necessary, but it is not step 1 in preaching the Gospel as the Law is NOT the Gospel. That is to say the Gospel does not contain the Law, hence the term "Good News", proclaimation of an event, broadcasting something that happen outside of me for me, declaration of what Jesus did rather than "you do this". WWJD for example is law, What Jesus did is Gospel.

Both:

Law and Gospel. Yet, we are NEVER justified by keeping the Law but Grace alone, AND much to the shock of modern evangelicals sanctification is rooted in grace ALSO. Sanctification is not a "to do", it is not "my work to do" or else - but rather a precious promise and thus encouragement. It is impossible for sanctification to not occur from justification. That is an encouragement not discouragement, some will hear that statement as discouragement because they are displeased with their Christian walk. But the displeasure is the best sign that you ARE being sanctified. So be encouraged!

One must come to realize that all good works are God's even in me/you as through a grossly imperfect instrument. You can never lay claim to "good works" as yours but only God's else you must fear that you are not of the kingdom for such robbery of God's glory - IF you really think they are your own. Children of the Law will hate that statement.

The Law in its accusing force drives us fleeing to Christ. For the Christian under grace the Law then becomes the content, imperfect in this life, of the Christian life. Never do we in and of ourselves before or after conversion fulfill the Law. Christ alone fulfills it and in Him we are righteous.

As Calvin like Luther rightly observes, "The Law is the content and guide for the Christian but if you begin to hear the Law accusing you must set the Law aside and flee to the cross immediately where true power and true rest is given." (paraphrased) The Law NEVER gives what it demands and thus the Gospel is the power. Hence the distinction (contra arminianism, pelgianism, pietism and some dispensationalism) must always be maintained yet without divorcing the two (contra other dispensationalism). Those who preach Christ as a "new lawgiver" (again many forms of man centered religions, arminians, dispensationalist and other glory religions) in opposition to Moses as the "old lawgiver", defile Christ. Yes, Christ preached both but His OFFICE is that of Redeemer not lawgiver. Moses' office was that of Lawgiver, yet Gospel was in his mind too.

The Law is natural to all men in a sense and all seek vainly to become righteous by it. The Gospel is alien and must be declared, redeclared and redeclared.

If one thinks they "really" keep the Law "from the heart" and this for the purpose of "pleasing God" as to justification either explicitly or implicitly or functionally, then one has violated the Law for the Law is Love and Love is altruistic toward others and God - and such "keeping of the law" is really infinitely selfish and supremely arrogant by placing one's self above God and in the end utterly against the Law or in short sin.

Driving the heart of the Law/Gospel distinction lies is not so much commands and promises (though the reason for this is apparent in why the distinction is absolutely necessary), but rather suffering, trial and cross versus religions of glory. Always take it to suffering. Test the doctrine at suffering. For the Law will be of no comfort to you on your death bed or when Satan accuses. Then and only then under suffering will one realize the true Gospel and the necessity of the Law/Gospel distinction. Those who have not suffered cross as cross inwardly or outwardly cannot grasp this as it is infinitely beyond them though they may speak at great length about the subject. But God will not be mocked and Christ will not be denied His glory.

In suffering the one suffering under the suffering comes to realise his/her true need and hence true prayer, true faith, true cross, true God and true mankind. Then the Gospel will be sweet for in suffering crosses the reality of theology is brought to bear for real upon the believer.

Then one will see why Paul damns all who fail to proclaim true Gospel and true Christ, mingling Law and Gospel, and not seperating the two without divorcing them.

Ldh

[Edited on 9-27-2005 by Larry Hughes]
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Old 09-27-2005, 09:51 AM
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Larry,
Thanks for such a lengthy and well-thought-out reply.

I am STILL uncertain, however, if what Jesus was preaching was Law OR commands to His followers as believers. Certainly the two cannot be the same thing because if one could fulfill the latter he could fulfill the former.

If His sayings were commands to His followers, then it seems His yoke was not all that "easy and light", and it causes me anquish of soul to see how far short I fall (shouldn't I be filled with peace and joy instead).

If His sayings were Law, then it strikes me as odd that the very embodiment of the Gospel would be preaching Law and not following it up immediately with a Gospel of hope. (Again, the rich young ruler was not told to place his faith in Jesus, but to FOLLOW Jesus, and even then not until he adequately repents of worshiping his possessions).

I can't articulate the exact point of unclarity in my thinking on this issue (as it is so unclear in my mind that I can't formulate it precisely enough), but hopefully someone will be able to decipher exactly what I'm trying to get at.
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Old 09-27-2005, 10:18 AM
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Larry,

You are correct in your understanding of what I meant. Although, I don't think its bad to call preaching the Law step 1 in preaching the gospel. Paul did this very thing in Romans 1-3. He proclaimed the gospel (1:16-17) precisely by starting with the fact that mankind has sinned against God. This step 1 included the breaking of the Law (both to those who had it and those who did not).

If I remember correctly, which I may not, did not Calvin, Spurgeon, Edwards, and others promote the proclamation of the Law when preaching the Gospel?
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Old 09-27-2005, 10:23 AM
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1 more comment because I just thought a little bit more...

The gospel is not something that is preached to unbelievers alone. If it were, then you would always begin with the Law to leave them speechless and guilty before God before you proceeded to the good news.

But when preaching the gospel to believers (which is something we should do often) you focus on the grace of the cross. Too often we think of the gospel as a "Four Spiritual Laws" type of presentation (God help us!). But it is much more than that. It is, to a believer, how the cross affects every area of our lives.
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Old 09-27-2005, 12:18 PM
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How are the Law and Gospel different things?
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Old 09-27-2005, 12:28 PM
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Zacharias Ursinus. In What Does The Law Differ From The Gospel? The exposition of this question is necessary for a variety of considerations, and especially that we may have a proper understanding of the law and the gospel, to which a knowledge of that in which they differ greatly contributes. According to the definition of the law, which says, that it promises rewards to those who render perfect obedience; and that it promises them freely, inasmuch as no obedience can be meritorious in the sight of God, it would seem that it does not differ from the gospel, which also promises eternal life freely. Yet notwithstanding this seeming agreement, there is a great difference between the law and the gospel. They differ, 1. As to the mode of revelation peculiar to each. The law is known naturally: the gospel was divinely revealed after the fall of man. 2. In matter or doctrine. The law declares the justice of God separately considered: the gospel declares it in connection with his mercy. The law teaches what we ought to be in order that we may be saved: the gospel teaches in addition to this, how we may become such as this law requires, viz: by faith in Christ. 3. In their conditions or promises. The law promises eternal life and all good things upon the condition of our own and perfect righteousness, and of obedience in us: the gospel promises the same blessings upon the condition that we exercise faith in Christ, by which we embrace the obedience which another, even Christ, has performed in our behalf; or the gospel teaches that we are justified freely by faith in Christ. With this faith is also connected, as by an indissoluble bond, the condition of new obedience. 4. In their effects. The law works wrath, and is the ministration of death: the gospel is the ministration of life and of the Spirit (Rom. 4:15, 2 Cor. 3:7) (Commentary on the Heidelberg Catechism, Q. 92).

See more at: http://public.csusm.edu/public/guest...LawGospel.html
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Old 09-27-2005, 12:45 PM
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Old 09-27-2005, 01:01 PM
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This might seem like such a basic and elementary principle to some of you, and you might wonder how a seasoned Reformed person could even pose a question of the sort. In an email earlier today, I told one person:

"I've also been dealing with confusion in areas which I once thought were sealed tight in my mind. That's the way things go on our journey with God, it seems. We learn truth and we run so far with it, and after we get over one hill we can suddenly see a lot farther all at once, and what we were carrying in our arms now seems so inadequate for the long journey we can suddenly see is still left to go."

Has anyone else ever struggled with this? Its like you learn the basics, then you come to find out that you've learned most of them somewhat wrongly, then you move to the opposite side of that error (usually to an unhealthy extreme), then you try to balance yourself back to what you're finding out is orthodoxy, and then as you ponder these (new?) truths and wrestle with them, suddenly even the most elementary things are again filled with mystery.

It usually happens when after you've got a certain point of doctrine "tightened up" in your mind, you come across a Scripture or two that doesn't seem to fit with it and "even though its just one Scripture", it necessitates questioning your whole foundation that your belief was built upon.

For me it happened most recently when I pondered Jesus' "unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees, you will no wise enter into Heaven." He made no mention of His fulfilling the Law in your place after that. It just sits, like an immovable rock.

Can anyone relate? Why did Jesus preach the Law? If it is said, "to drive us to Himself", well, that seems to fit our theology, but it doesn't often fit the context in which He said it. In reading it, I don't at all come away with the conclusion, "Oh, Jesus is telling me that it is impossible and I must look to Him." Even though this is what I believe, sometimes I feel like I'm dealing dishonestly with the text in order to continue my belief.
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Old 09-27-2005, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Larry Hughes
Douglas,

Though I think you mean differently I would disagree with your choice of wording. Preaching the Law is step 1 and necessary, but it is not step 1 in preaching the Gospel as the Law is NOT the Gospel. That is to say the Gospel does not contain the Law, hence the term "Good News", proclaimation of an event, broadcasting something that happen outside of me for me, declaration of what Jesus did rather than "you do this". WWJD for example is law, What Jesus did is Gospel.

Both:

Law and Gospel. Yet, we are NEVER justified by keeping the Law but Grace alone, AND much to the shock of modern evangelicals sanctification is rooted in grace ALSO. Sanctification is not a "to do", it is not "my work to do" or else - but rather a precious promise and thus encouragement. It is impossible for sanctification to not occur from justification. That is an encouragement not discouragement, some will hear that statement as discouragement because they are displeased with their Christian walk. But the displeasure is the best sign that you ARE being sanctified. So be encouraged!

One must come to realize that all good works are God's even in me/you as through a grossly imperfect instrument. You can never lay claim to "good works" as yours but only God's else you must fear that you are not of the kingdom for such robbery of God's glory - IF you really think they are your own. Children of the Law will hate that statement.

The Law in its accusing force drives us fleeing to Christ. For the Christian under grace the Law then becomes the content, imperfect in this life, of the Christian life. Never do we in and of ourselves before or after conversion fulfill the Law. Christ alone fulfills it and in Him we are righteous.

As Calvin like Luther rightly observes, "The Law is the content and guide for the Christian but if you begin to hear the Law accusing you must set the Law aside and flee to the cross immediately where true power and true rest is given." (paraphrased) The Law NEVER gives what it demands and thus the Gospel is the power. Hence the distinction (contra arminianism, pelgianism, pietism and some dispensationalism) must always be maintained yet without divorcing the two (contra other dispensationalism). Those who preach Christ as a "new lawgiver" (again many forms of man centered religions, arminians, dispensationalist and other glory religions) in opposition to Moses as the "old lawgiver", defile Christ. Yes, Christ preached both but His OFFICE is that of Redeemer not lawgiver. Moses' office was that of Lawgiver, yet Gospel was in his mind too.

The Law is natural to all men in a sense and all seek vainly to become righteous by it. The Gospel is alien and must be declared, redeclared and redeclared.

If one thinks they "really" keep the Law "from the heart" and this for the purpose of "pleasing God" as to justification either explicitly or implicitly or functionally, then one has violated the Law for the Law is Love and Love is altruistic toward others and God - and such "keeping of the law" is really infinitely selfish and supremely arrogant by placing one's self above God and in the end utterly against the Law or in short sin.

Driving the heart of the Law/Gospel distinction lies is not so much commands and promises (though the reason for this is apparent in why the distinction is absolutely necessary), but rather suffering, trial and cross versus religions of glory. Always take it to suffering. Test the doctrine at suffering. For the Law will be of no comfort to you on your death bed or when Satan accuses. Then and only then under suffering will one realize the true Gospel and the necessity of the Law/Gospel distinction. Those who have not suffered cross as cross inwardly or outwardly cannot grasp this as it is infinitely beyond them though they may speak at great length about the subject. But God will not be mocked and Christ will not be denied His glory.

In suffering the one suffering under the suffering comes to realise his/her true need and hence true prayer, true faith, true cross, true God and true mankind. Then the Gospel will be sweet for in suffering crosses the reality of theology is brought to bear for real upon the believer.

Then one will see why Paul damns all who fail to proclaim true Gospel and true Christ, mingling Law and Gospel, and not seperating the two without divorcing them.

Ldh

[Edited on 9-27-2005 by Larry Hughes]
Larry-

You articulate this subject so well in all your posts. You are a tremendous help in understanding (and applying!) this core issue.
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Old 09-27-2005, 02:24 PM
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Old 09-27-2005, 02:59 PM
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I think it might be helpful to see the relationship between the law and the gospel like that of the relationship between election and reprobation.

Predestination contains two parts:

1) election 2) reprobation

They both are related insofar as they are decrees of God, but they do not function in the same way or bring about the same result. The first functions to save, the second to harden.

The Word of God contains two parts:

1) gospel 2) law

They both are related insofar as they are messages from God, but they do not function in the same way or bring about the same result. The first functions to save, the second to harden.

The only difference is that there is no third use or category of predestination. The law shows us our sins and misery and cannot save, but the gospel does and drives us to Christ who fulfilled the law for us. However, the law continues to function as way of thankfulness. After being embraced by our Savior in unconditional love, He sends us forth to do His will out of our love to Him.
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Old 09-27-2005, 03:13 PM
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For an excellent treatment of this issue, read "The Pearl of Christian Comfort" by Petrus Dathenus.

http://www.heritagebooks.org/item.asp?bookId=452

"For the instruction and consolation of all troubled hearts who are not properly able to distinguish between the law and the gospel."

Dathenus (1531-1588) was a Reformed pastor in the Netherlands who began the tradition of preaching through the Heidelberg Catechism for our continental kerken. Unlike our modern adherents to the Reformed faith, Dathenus had not yet been purged from this Lutheran plague that yet still threatens to destroy our churches.

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Old 09-27-2005, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by alwaysreforming
Larry,
Thanks for such a lengthy and well-thought-out reply.

I am STILL uncertain, however, if what Jesus was preaching was Law OR commands to His followers as believers. Certainly the two cannot be the same thing because if one could fulfill the latter he could fulfill the former.

If His sayings were commands to His followers, then it seems His yoke was not all that "easy and light", and it causes me anquish of soul to see how far short I fall (shouldn't I be filled with peace and joy instead).
The moral law does not change. The requirement to obey it does not change. But our relationship to God does change thanks to the obedience and death of Christ. As unbelievers, we only know God as a judge, and hence His law condemns us. As beleivers, the curse of the law has been removed in Christ, the righteous requirements of the law have been fulfilled in Christ, so we are justified in God's sight. But the law still functions as our guide for righteous living, not becasue we can be condemned, but because it displeases our Father. When we sin, it will bring the chastizement and discipline of our Father, but not condemnation. His discipline is there to conform us to Christ. SO the law still remains the righteous standard of conduct for both beleivers and unbelievers.

The yoke is "easy and light" because as beleivers we are no longer burdened to obey the law in our own power. We are given new hearts, united to Christ, and empowered by the Spirit to live righteously. We have the ability to obey, where as unbelievers we are in bondage to sin.

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If His sayings were Law, then it strikes me as odd that the very embodiment of the Gospel would be preaching Law and not following it up immediately with a Gospel of hope. (Again, the rich young ruler was not told to place his faith in Jesus, but to FOLLOW Jesus, and even then not until he adequately repents of worshiping his possessions).

I can't articulate the exact point of unclarity in my thinking on this issue (as it is so unclear in my mind that I can't formulate it precisely enough), but hopefully someone will be able to decipher exactly what I'm trying to get at.
You have to understand Jesus' teaching in light of the people He was ministering to. Jesus was extremely harsh with the self-righteous, and made certain to drive them to the law, not because they could inherit life by it anymore, but to teach them that their standards of obedience were not high enough. Their righteousness must exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees. They must be perfect to inherit eternal life. He did this so that the people would quit depending upon their own righteousness, covenant faithfulness, or ethnic identity and instead trust in the Person and work of the Messiah on their behalf. Jesus taught that we must believe on Him. He had the authority to forgive sins. And He had th