For those of you ministering in Western cultures, what is the position of your churches on the cultural manifestations of witchcraft? I'm referring to occult-theme video games, Dungeons and Dragons, occult-theme movies, teenagers putting "spells" on each other. Do these practices occur in your churches and, if so, with what degree of approval or disapproval from the leadership or membership? Is involvement with this an issue when teens are baptized or make public profession of faith?

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Mary Vanderkooi
Kale Heywott Church (KHC)
Soddo, Ethiopia

I'm not in vocational ministry at all, but I know that in my church, just about anyone who plays video games plays those kinds to an extent without objection. And in the church I just moved away from, those were supplied to the youth by the youth pastor.

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Dan Pemberton
Vacaville, CA

Member, First Baptist Church San Luis Obispo
Formerly ABUSA (We left, so I guess that makes us American Baptists Unleashed!)

I think there is probably a big difference in Westerners reading about "occult themes" for even C.S. Lewis' books have "occult themes". But if a church member wore a lucky rabbit's foot or did other superstitious behaviors perhaps they should be talked to. Here even some church members will wear talismans for spiritual protection.

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

I remember believing a bible and a cross under my pillow would keep evil spirits away at night. That is a sort of superstition like witchcraft which is common.

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Fraser,
Trinity Reformed Baptist Church
Hamilton, New Zealand.

THAT was in my church through and through.

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Dan Pemberton
Vacaville, CA

Member, First Baptist Church San Luis Obispo
Formerly ABUSA (We left, so I guess that makes us American Baptists Unleashed!)

Is it wrong to sleep w/ a bible if you do it knowing that there is no supernatural benefit? Just for the emotional comfort.

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Joseph P. Grigoletti II
Lay-person
OPC
Québec, Québec Canada

"The best and final gift of the gospel is that we gain Christ." John Piper. God is the Gospel. Page 11. Crossway Books Wheaton,IL 2005.

Why would a hard block of paper give emotional comfort?

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Certainly no physical comfort. I can attest to that.

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Fraser,
Trinity Reformed Baptist Church
Hamilton, New Zealand.

Aren't these replies, except the first, off-topic? Is there a reason for this?

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Mary Vanderkooi
Kale Heywott Church (KHC)
Soddo, Ethiopia

I think that people are trying to work out what a culteral manifestation of witchcraft is, by its very nature we have to look at things that culteraly may on first sight appear to be OK but on deeper analysis do actually exhibit similiar traits i.e. the bible as a fetish.

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Mike
London City Presbyterian Church
London
England

"Surely, we wish to be orthodox, but we must first learn what real orthodoxy is. Surely, we wish to be progressive, but we must first have a basis to progress from."

It is wrong as we should derive emotional comfort from our Love of God and his redemptive love rather than objects. There is a danger that the physical bible can become an idol.

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Mike
London City Presbyterian Church
London
England

"Surely, we wish to be orthodox, but we must first learn what real orthodoxy is. Surely, we wish to be progressive, but we must first have a basis to progress from."

Leslie, I don't these replies are off topic. There are many western superstitions and these superstitions can be roughly lumped into the same category as blatant spells and witchcraft.

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Evidently I'm not on the same wavelength as all of you and I don't understand why. Keep writing. Maybe I'll learn something.

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Mary Vanderkooi
Kale Heywott Church (KHC)
Soddo, Ethiopia

I suppose we have to start by defining what we mean by both witchcraft and by "cultural manifestations".

By witchcraft I think that we mean attempts to influence the physical world (or to interelate with a spiritual world) and by culteral manifestations we are seeking to recognise that what the nature in which such witchcraft will be manifested will change over time and culture.

Going back to your opening post I would suggest that some of the issues that you identify are not witchcraft in themselves but perhaps manifestations of an interest in the possibility or history of witchcraft. The fault of such activities are more in the fact that they are not Godly than they are in themselves satanic. The same critisism could be made of classic literature and Sport but it is a quetion of how they are enjoyed, not that they are enjoyed.

What is necessarily evil are mediums, astrology etc where attempts to influence the physical world is implicit in the act and such activites can never be enjoyed in a Godly manner.

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Mike
London City Presbyterian Church
London
England

"Surely, we wish to be orthodox, but we must first learn what real orthodoxy is. Surely, we wish to be progressive, but we must first have a basis to progress from."

I have struggled with definitions and opinions on this; occult themes are so popular in literature these days and the rest of my family loves fantasy literature where witchcraft and occult themes are most likely to appear.

At the very least, witchcraft is grounded in European pagan "natural" religions. At worse, you have individuals trying to "channel" the dead or making blood sacrifices (sometimes using stolen animals, or even leaving cattle to die slowly with symbols cut into them -- don't mean to be gross, but I encountered this in California).

None of this fits my definition of the "good" we are supposed to be pondering; but the rest of my family thinks I'm too hyper. But phooey, I don't even have the time to read, think, and do the many good things that I could be doing much less delving into the occult.

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JWithnell
Member Bethel OPC
Virginia

I've been reading Witchcraft Goes Mainstream by Brooks Alexander and thus, having been out of US culture for 14 years, realizing the inroads of occult themes into society. From some of the responses, it sounds to me as if people are saying "it's no big deal" as if such games are like granny's cutting off the turkey's tail so the kiddies won't get food poisoning from the leftovers--a silly but harmless superstition.

For me, it seems as if the acceptance of cultural occult themes by believers is treason, like ripping pages out of a Bible to use as toilet paper and saying, "It's just paper" which is true. It's evident that the practice is well accepted in churches.

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Mary Vanderkooi
Kale Heywott Church (KHC)
Soddo, Ethiopia

We talk about 'witchcraft' and we think of old women with pointed hats. That is our cultural definition of a witch. If you said that a Buddhist trying to divine the future was witchcraft then people would laugh at you. It is not a European concept of witchcraft but I think it could be argued that it is "wrong".

When the Bible talks about witchcraft I highly doubt it meant pointed hats and broomsticks. There has to be an underlying theory of some sort to define it. As already mentioned with could be communicating with the dead and/or spirits or trying to alter the world around you in a unconventional, "magic" way.

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Fraser,
Trinity Reformed Baptist Church
Hamilton, New Zealand.

I heard that it's dangerous when reformed folk talk about witchcraft



Anyway, I doubt a child of light (i.e. a Christian) would be a lover of darkness (fantasy, D&D, ocult, Harry Potter, or any other thing that uses paganism/witch craft).

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יונתן פדוי
Jonathan
Assemblies of God (*GASP*)
Kentucky

... yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

1 Corinthians 8:6

But at the same time can't a Christian handle such themes better because they know it is strictly fantasy?

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Fraser,
Trinity Reformed Baptist Church
Hamilton, New Zealand.

I wish that what you wrote were true. I became involved in table levitation in Youth for Christ as a teenager. I was introduced to Dungeons and Dragons when I volunteered as physician at an SIL training location. Look up old threads and you will find that PB members read Harry Potter with approval. It's scary to me because it seems like treason. It's like a Jewish kid collecting swastikas and playing video games with SS-Nazi-kill-the-Jews themes. But then, maybe I'm just too old and hypersensitive.

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Mary Vanderkooi
Kale Heywott Church (KHC)
Soddo, Ethiopia

It's only strictly fantasy if you deny the existence of the middle storey.

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Mary Vanderkooi
Kale Heywott Church (KHC)
Soddo, Ethiopia

Wow, levitation? How does that work?

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

This is a very interesting topic, and quite controversial! There are truly godly people who recommend the Harry Potter books – saying they have Christian themes within them – and those who thoroughly oppose them. (I once wrote a negative review of the first 5 books titled, “REFLECTIONS OF A FORMER OCCULTIST, NOW THOROUGHLY CONVERTED TO CHRIST, ON HARRY POTTER”. I have yet to review the last.)

I am using that book as a culturally accepted presentation of witchcraft. I know nothing of D&D, save that the role-playing villainous characters, or even “good” characters who cast spells, is akin to role-playing adultery, etc – in my view. Ditto with the ouija board and its direct demonic activity.

But what about the books and movies which do not require such participation? (I am still pondering the view that acting per se is sinful – a view I saw espoused here on PB – and do not know.)

To me, who grew up in the sixties, with the drugs, Eastern spiritual paths, occult teachings (as in Theosophy, etc) functioning and being conscious in the spiritual or psychic realms is the cultural context I live in; in other words, the secular world of mere material reality is as a cardboard prop in denial of God’s world, with its angelic creatures, demonic invaders, and humans who ally themselves with God or His adversaries.

When I read the Lord of the Rings trilogy – as a Christian, but backslidden – it was a visionary work of sorts, even though an artistic literary production, and in the fantasy genre.

The reality I live in is not the “mere material reality” of many unbelievers. I live in, and participate in, the Global Arena of Consciousness, which is located on Apokalypse Field outside the gates of Eden. There is much occult stuff that goes on here – please note, “occult” comes from a Latin root which means simply hidden from view, as in occult carcinoma or occult blood in the stool, and could as easily apply to the hidden prayers and spiritual warfare of a saint as it could to a demonic practitioner, except for the common usage which refers it only to the demonic. But this is not how I use the term!

The world I occupy is filled with two kinds of people, the unregenerate, and the regenerate – or, in modern parlance, the living dead – zombie, vampire, werewolf – those covered with wondrous skin coverings but within are progeny of the Devil; and the children of light, daughters and sons of the Most High God, filled with His Spirit, and in fierce spiritual combat with the living dead, whom they nonetheless seek to win over to the Light. In the global arena – or the world stage – all manner of voices lifted up, as though a great gladiatorial combat of spiritual warriors, seeking to establish vision of the truth, of the real. Except for the politicians and military – who impact the physical realm greatly – most of the voices lifted up are in the occult and mental regions. This is the world I – and I must say we all, conscious of it or not – live in.

In our literature and film we love to project out of us the spiritual horror of the unregenerate – we as a species – and not own that inwardly this is our own reality. Vampires are but those who psychically drain the vitality of their fellows – sometimes mutually – and the werewolves are those who rage and devour the emotional lives of others. They are of the same line, only they have different feeding styles.

So this talk of occult stuff infiltrating the church is sort of misperceiving the reality. We live in the midst of the occult regions – and where the prime deception is the “New York Times mentality” of a proper world ordered and material in essence – with the task of the people of God being to give discernment of the true and the false in the occult. To herald the One who came into our world a Champion of Light, and rescuer of those turned monsters by the ancient and dread sting of death.

I personally believe there is a new age of presentation of the Gospel coming, one which does not deny or suppress the occult, but exposes it from within, revealing the horror, and the glory. And the church will be seen as a glorious entity dwelling in the midst of dark powers – Christ's own community of saints, the haven of the lost seeking His rescue.

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Steve Rafalsky
Elder, International Evangelical Church (Reformed)
Limassol, Cyprus

"I am set for the defense of the gospel" (Philippians 1:17)

"Strengthened with all might, according to His glorious
power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness..." (Colossians 1:11)

It doesn't work. But the attempt pulled me into the occult and I suffered for it.

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Mary Vanderkooi
Kale Heywott Church (KHC)
Soddo, Ethiopia

Mr. Rafalsky, thank you for your interesting post above. It made me think about when my wife and I recently saw the movie with Will Smith, I Am Legend, which could almost have been written by someone who had your post in front of them to keep them on track.

I wonder if you are at all familiar with the novels of Charles Williams?

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Ruben
Moderato