In a previous thread I was not addressing how one keeps the day, but if one were to say they do not need to keep the 4th commandment at all.

Some misunderstood my questions, assumed I was saying there was only one right way to keep the sabbath and never interacted with the scriptures just argued their belief about what were legitimate ways to keep the 4th command.

I was trying to discuss
What do we think of those who say they do not hold in any way the 4th command and believe God dropped the 4th command and it is not reiterated in the NT it was only for OT.

So rather than seek to go back to that, I would like to address the subject that arose there. I would like to explore further what so any were adamant about on how you can keep the 4th command without keeping it as Calvin did or the Larger Catechism explains.

So this time I am distinctly not asking if one rejects the 4th command as being a rule of life for them, or part of the moral law, but I am asking

Is it Confessional to say you keep the 4th commandment and yet believe you do not have to keep the day holy as a special day, in some way distinct from all other days

I am not asking how you keep it distinct or how close to the Confession and catechism or loose. So please don't go there.

But can you say I do not have to do anything different on that day or cease from work etc. I would do on any other day. Ie. I keep the sabbath rest in Christ and that is keeping and obeying the 4th command?

Is this consistent with our Confession and understanding of scripture? Could a minister be ordained in a Confessional church with this belief?

Lets try to keep it peaceful and not assume we understand what someone else is saying. Lets ask them to clarify, and mainly just exhibit scripture to support your belief, and explain the meaning of the scripture that supports your belief if you care to participate. Not attack someone else's thought as much as prove yours from scripture.

Thanks.

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DonP

It is not confessional.


How can the confessions be misunderstood in regards to Sabbath day observance as a day set apart from the other six days of the week?

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Bill Brown
Elder
Reformed Baptist
Maryland

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Could a minister be ordained in a Confessional church with this belief?

You can be ordained in the PCA and watch sports on Sunday TV ( I assume that is considered worldly recreations)

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Lynnie

PCA

Central NJ

Well, a person may disagree with the confessions on Sabbath observance, but that doesn't change the confessional position on Sabbath observance. It's pretty cut and dry.

That is how you specifically sanctify the day.

We are looking to know if they say they do not have to keep the day special in anyway and it is fulfilled in Christ or if they do something special beyond attend church. Something similar to OT distinction or what was posted above.

Can you tell us if he believes he does not need to set a day apart distinctly? And please lets not use names. esp of elders. Lets say an officer I know as opposed to pastor of my church.
Thanks.

Thanks though, just trying to keep this one on track better.

Oops, don't go thinking I have a liberal pastor if you ever figure out who he is. He specifically started the evening service to encourage a whole day devoted to the Lord and fellowship.

Hub went to WTS, we were in a PCA church in PA and now in NJ, have known plenty of ordained officers. Two reformed Baptist churches in our past also.

do not have to keep the day special in anyway I have the impression that the "holy convocation" or "sacred assembly" as the OT put it makes the day special. Beyond that, anything that qualifies as quality time with the kids is generally seen as OK. Softball, bowling, anything outdoors (here in NJ, the beach in summer). I only know of a few who would not go to a restaurant. A show off broadway in NY is OK too with elders I have known. Movies- yes.

Let me be honest with you. I see you are in the PCA. If this subject is really important to you, or essential to you, I think you would be happier in the OPC. That is just my general observation in my geographic area. Maybe the west coast is different but I'd doubt it. Around here it is the OPC where you get the most conservative sabbath keeping. But I could be wrong. If you want to be part of this as a church body I don't know that the PCA is the way to go for you.

The PCA higher ups spent a while on Federal Vision and now deaconesses is the PCA hot subject supposedly. Maybe someday the sabbath will be addressed. Personally I'd like to see theistic evolution stomped on, and the cruddy stuff in the PCA loaning library like Beth Moore and Barna church growth techniques abolished, but that is just me.

I probably wandered off track a bit, sorry.

What Bill said.


Lynnie is right about the PCA going down hill quick.

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w

These are excellent articles on the subject that help to explain the OPC's position and history of interpreting the confessional standards. I think you'd find a fairly by-the-book (confession) view of the sabbath here.

New Horizons

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JWithnell
Member Bethel OPC
Virginia
http://learningyesican.blogspot.com/

Don:

Define how one keeps the day holy.

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That is exactly what I didn't want to get into here.

Not how you keep the day holy as a special day, but if it is confessional to hold to a position that you keep the 4th commandment in Christ or in some other way than setting the day apart as a sabbatarian would.

Can we keep the 4th commandment without being a typical sabbatarian.
And what scriptures teach that.

Who cares what I do on the day. I want to know what scripture teaches.

I am looking to see if others have scripture to support their understanding of the 4th commandment.

Not here to judge how someone else does sets the day apart, but for those who don't set it apart how did they learn from scripture that they can keep the 4th commandment and do that.

Or if they think the 4th commandment was only for Israel and is not part of the moral law. And scripture.

Or is this just a whim they have and they can not defend it from scripture.

Excellent. Thanks!

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Don Partridge said:
In the your OP you asked:

If you want to see scriptures on keeping the Sabbath Day holy, here they are:

Exodus 20:8; 1 Corinthians 16:1, 2; Acts 20:7; Revelation 1:10; Isaiah 58:13; Nehemiah 13:15-22; Matthew 12:1-13

There is no need to lay down a defense of the Sabbath day when it has been done already by the framers of the 1689 LBC and the WCF. The onus is on YOU to prove otherwise.

OK but there are others who differ and believe one can keep the 4th commandment and not set the day apart specially in those ways.

They believe they can keep the rest in Christ and I wanted to hear more about that and see where they learned that in scripture. Who taught them or how they were taught it.

Matthew 12:1-13.

Don, that is fine, just don't call into question whether Sabbath observance is confessional. It certainly is. Non-sabbatarians must be honest and admit that their view is not confessional. I've already quoted both the 1689 LBC and the WCF. Both are as plain on the issue as the sizable nose on my face.

Sounds to me like Jesus was correcting the Pharisees misunderstanding of how to keep the Sabbath properly as a JEw. That if there was a necessity they could do those things.

He just corrected how they kept it. Were you thinking He was saying they did not have to keep it at all or that He was changing how it was kept from now on??

These Confessions both summarize the doctrine of Scripture to say:

1) advance preparation
2) abstain from work
3) abstain from recreation

allowing exception for works of necessity and works of mercy,

in order to focus, the whole day, on the worship of God... one day in seven.

This kind of reasoning sounds like the rationalization of sin used by those who argue they can venerate statues because they are not worshiping them but only using them indirectly to worship the true God.
(Not only are they violating the second commandment, but the first, third and ninth as well)

__________________
Scott
PCA
North Carolina


"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised)"
Hebrews 10:23

It should be stated as an exception to the appropriate body (pastor to presbytery, candidate for deacon or elder to session).

-----Added 3/30/2009 at 09:30:24 EST-----

Any of those things should be taken as exceptions when subscribing.

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Edward
Deacon
PCA
Texas

I was actually encouraged (read: told) to take an exception on the Sabbath and the Regulative Principle of Worship by a member of Minister and His Work (a different presbytery than my current one) who examined me when I was transferring to that presbytery. I was shocked. I told him I didn't have any exceptions. He said, "Sure you do. You eat out on Sunday, don't you?" I told him I didn't. He said, "What about the NFL?" Again I said no. He said, "Do you get the Sunday paper?" No. Then he got kinda sheepish about the whole thing, but still suggested I take a exception.

Tim, NOW you bring up a good point which leads to another aspect of Sabbath observance. What constitutes necessity? I have observed differing levels of Sabbath observance. One brother has no problem dinning out on the Lord's Day while another abstains. One brother will not attend a birthday party while another brother views it as permissible. Both may agree the Sabbath is to be observed, they disagree on the nuts and bolts.

That is sad but, I doubt that it is uncommon.

No.

No.

No

Yes

:Sigh: Don you are missing part of the verse: Jesus ACTED on the Sabbath in ways the confessional temple attendees found blasphemous. This is a good warning to Sabbatarians of any flavor.

I see what you are saying.
But those were not Confessional. they were Tamudic Pharisees who added to God's word. Jesus set them straight on how we are to sanctify the Sabbath.

Calvin and today's Christian and confessional sabbatarians do not believe like the Pharisees. We agree with Jesus that They were wrong and we can do what Jesus said. We can pull an ox out of a ditch or heal someone or do deeds of necessity and mercy.

But Jesus did not tell them they could do normal harvesting, only if they were starving and enough to feed themselves not go sell.

I hope this helps. I think you may have run into some strange people who are more like the Pharisees and so you think all sabatarians are that way.

Some as those posting here would not watch football on the Lord's day, or go to a restaurant and engage in commerce but they all would agree we could do what Jesus did and David did to feed his army.

I know no sabbatarians today who would say you can't walk so many paces etc.

Please be open to check this out. and Thanks for sharing.

-----Added 3/30/2009 at 11:24:10 EST-----

Tim So what was it he did not think was not confessional about your sabbath habits?

Application of the fourth commandment can be difficult or unclear in some applications. There have been some threads discussing this.

God will reward those who are trying, in good faith, to keep His commandments.

The fact something may be difficult does not, of course, mean we do not try. (I realize you are not saying we should not try because it is difficult). I am constantly inconvenienced by keeping the sabbath and at the same time blessed. It is one of the hardest things to try and do but God does bless obedience.

If I were to "eat out" on the sabbath it would be along the lines that eating is necessary, my wife, for example would otherwise being doing much the same work. We are not called to fast all day every sabbath, as long as you stay focused on the Lord in thought, word and deed. Admittedly, this is hard to do. I could not conceive of doing this, for example, in a sports bar.

In my understanding, eating a meal in a non-distracting atmosphere and focusing on what the Pastor said, discussing one of the "five points" would not necessarily be a violation (could be wrong about this and would honor anyone with a conviction on this). It is not what I understand to be "recreation" or "seeking to entertain oneself."

Going to a birthday "party" probably would be. The focus is not on the necessity of eating, but on celebrating something other than God, the atmosphere likely is not conducive to focusing on God either.

So, I would not be troubled by this kind of choice, by Scripture or the Confession.

It's helpful to know that God is gracious in providing us with exceptions for mercy and necessity. They are not licenses for seeking employment or recreation but they do unburden us from some things otherwise unlawful. God is gracious, and I am thankful for that.

If you think it helpful, you might start a new thread on fourth commandment applications. There are people struggling with this.

So how else can one say they hold to the 4th commandment without resting the day from normal commerical work and devoting it to worship activities?