I hope this is in the right section.Where in scripture can I find seperation of church and state?

Off hand, this passage comes to mind:

2 Chron. 26.18 And they withstood Uzziah the king, and said unto him, It appertaineth not unto thee, Uzziah, to burn incense unto the LORD, but to the priests the sons of Aaron, that are consecrated to burn incense: go out of the sanctuary; for thou hast trespassed; neither shall it be for thine honour from the LORD God.

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Andrew Myers
Husband of Jessica, Father of Jackson, Katie and Samuel
Member, Presbyterian Reformed Church of Northern Virginia
Warrenton, VA USA
Editor, The Matthew Poole Project

"Let your Morning Thoughts, and your last Evening Thoughts, be what shall become of you to all Eternity." -- Matthew Poole

Westminster Confession of Faith (1646):

[quote]Chap. 20

IV. And because the powers which God hath ordained, and the liberty which Christ hath purchased, are not intended by God to destroy, but mutually to uphold and preserve one another; they who, upon pretence of Christian liberty, shall oppose any lawful power, or the lawful exercise of it, whether it be civil or ecclesiastical, resist the ordinance of God.(p) And, for their publishing of such opinions, or maintaining of such practices, as are contrary to the light of nature, or to the known principles of Christianity, whether concerning faith, worship, or conversation; or, to the power of godliness; or, such erroneous opinions or practices, as either in their own nature, or in the manner of publishing or maintaining them, are destructive to the external peace and order which Christ hath established in the Church, they may lawfully be called to account, and proceeded against by the censures of the Church,(q) and by the power of the civil magistrate.(r)

(p) Matt. 12:25; I Pet. 2:13, 14, 16; Rom. 13:1 to 8; Heb. 13:17.
(q) Rom. 1:32 with I Cor. 5:1, 5, 11, 13; II John ver. 10, 11, and II Thess. 3:14, and I Tim. 6:3, 4, 5, and Tit. 1:10, 11, 13, and Tit. 3:10 with Matt. 18:15, 16, 17; I Tim. 1:19, 20; Rev. 2:2, 14, 15, 20; Rev. 3:9.
(r) Deut. 13:6 to 12; Rom. 13:3, 4 with II John ver. 10, 11; Ezra 7:23, 25, 26, 27, 28; Rev. 17:12, 16, 17; Neh. 13:15, 17, 21, 22, 25, 30; II Kings 23:5, 6, 9, 20, 21; II Chron. 34:33; II Chron. 15:12, 13, 16; Dan. 3:29; I Tim. 2:2; Isa. 49:23; Zech. 13:2, 3.

Chap. 23

III. The civil magistrate may not assume to himself the administration of the Word and sacraments, or the power of the keys of the kingdom of heaven: (e) yet he hath authority, and it is his duty, to take order, that unity and peace be. preserved in the Church, that the truth of God be kept pure and entire; that all blasphemies and heresies be suppressed; all corruptions and abuses in worship and discipline prevented or reformed; and all the ordinances of God duly settled, administrated, and observed.(f) For the better effecting whereof, he hath power to call synods, to be present at them, and to provide that whatsoever is transacted in them be according to the mind of God.(g)

(e) II Chron. 26:18 with Matt. 18:17 and Matt. 16:19; I Cor. 12:28, 29; Eph. 4:11, 12; I Cor. 4:1, 2; Rom. 10:15; Heb. 5:4.
(f) Isa. 49:23; Ps. 122:9; Ezra 7:23, 25, 26, 27, 28; Lev. 24:16; Deut. 13:5, 6, 12; I Kings 18:4; I Chron. 13:1 to 9; II Kings 23:1 to 26; II Chron. 34:33; II Chron. 15:12, 13.
(g) II Chron. 19:8, 9, 10, 11; II Chron. 29 and 30; Matt. 2:4, 5.

Chap. 31

II. As magistrates may lawfully call a synod of ministers, and other fit persons, to consult and advise with, about matters of religion;(b) so, if magistrates be open enemies to the Church, the ministers of Christ of themselves, by virtue of their office, or they, with other fit persons upon delegation from their Churches, may meet together in such assemblies.(c)

(b) Isa. 49:23; I Tim. 2:1, 2; II Chron. 19:8, 9, 10, 11; II Chron. 29, 30 chaps.; Matt. 2:4, 5; Prov. 11:14.
(c) Acts 15:2, 4, 22, 23, 25.

IV. Synods and councils are to handle, or conclude, nothing, but that which is ecclesiastical: and are not to intermeddle with civil affairs which concern the commonwealth; unless by way of humble petition, in cases extraordinary; or by way of advice, for satisfaction of conscience, if they be thereunto required by the civil magistrate.(f)

(f) Luke 12:13, 14; John 18:36.

Great thanks andrew

You're welcome!

Alot of the idea of Church/State releationship has two do, not with one particular verse, but with many overarching principles in scripture.

1) The keys of the kingdom are given to the church, not the state.

Mat 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

2) The sword is given to the governing authority, and not to the church.

Rom 13:4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.

3) We must realize that the desire to have people who "lord" things over us is looked upon in scripture as a BAD thing.

1Sa 8:19 But the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel. And they said, "No! But there shall be a king over us,
1Sa 8:20 that we also may be like all the nations, and that our king may judge us and go out before us and fight our battles."

4) The principle of a good leader in scripture is one of leadership by serving.

Mat 20:25 But Jesus called them to him and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them.
Mat 20:26 It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,
Mat 20:27 and whoever would be first among you must be your slave,
Mat 20:28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

There are many others as well, but the subject of biblical politics is very fun. I would recommend Essays on Ethics and Politics by Gordon Clark for a good treatment.

__________________
Jeff Bartel
Mechanical Engineer
Member - Trinity Reformed Church - RPCNA

"To believe in the power of man in the work of regeneration is the great heresy of Rome, and from that error has come the ruin of the Church. Conversion proceeds from the grace of God alone, and the system which ascribes it partly to man and partly to God is worse than Pelagianism" (The Reformation in England (London, 1962), Vol. 1, p. 98)

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Ditto, we must always opt for decentralized local government.

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

Is this not the same wicked principle we use today? Jesus is not our Lord,its George bush.George is our savior,George is our health care provider,George is our retirement plan.Do we not look at the world through totalitarian socialism and consider it normal?

True, the U.S. has taken upon itself many roles that are intended for the church. It is not the civil magistrate that is to provide for the poor, but it is the church's responsibility. On the other hand, I don't believe the church has taken upon itself it's proper roles. If the church was doing its job, the government wouldn't have to.

That is what Rushdoony says we either tithe 10 % to christianity or 50 or 60% to the state.

when I tell peaple we do not live in a free country they look at me like I am a freak.The public shool worldview.We are free even though we work for the state until july every year

I am wondering and fleshing this thought out.
Does the spiritual barometer of the Church reflect the sociological, economic, and moral status of the state. I.e, when the Church is apostate the state becomes tyrannical? Just wondering.

My initial thoughts are that the obedience of the church to its roles has a tremendous effect on the moral status of the state. However, I wouldn't attribute ALL of the sins of the state to the lack of diligence of the church. Only when both parties adhere to their biblical role, does harmony exist.

But I thought unregenerate magistrates natually supress the truth in unrighteousness? Unless you are talking about christian magistrates.

That is true, but an unregenerate magistrate might actually stick to his biblically defined roles for ulterior motives. Thus Luther's adage about being ruled by a wise Turk. To be sure, this almost never happens, but it could, I guess.

Thanks Jeff.

What alterior motives? position,money? Psa 110:2 Jehovah shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion to rule in the midst of Your enemies. How is this scripture to be interpreted?

I don't know at the moment. I am speaking hypothetically. BTW, I agree with you on what you are trying to get at. I was saying that it could be possible, at least for the short run, for a pagan to actually rule justly and respect the limits of civil government that God has ordained. Of course, pagans aren't consistent so we shouldn't hope on this scenario. However, I don't think I fully get what you are saying. I think I am answering the wrong question.

another question I have for Andrew or anybody. 2 Chron. 26.18 this scripture proves that state has no authority in the churches business but what about vice versa? Can somone give me a main scripture for the opposite? A scripture that would help me give psalms 110:2 a little more balance?

One place in the Scriptures where we see the that the church is given spiritual authority which excludes the use of the sword to advance Christ's kingdom is John 18.36:

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Note that this does not mean that Christ's kingdom, ie., the church has no connection with the temporal world around us or that Christians may not take up arms, etc. It simply means that -- consistent with Romans 13 -- the church is a minister of God in spiritual matters and the state is a minister of God in civil matters.

William Cunningham's Discussion of Church Principles is one of the best works on the subject of the right relationship between church and state. It covers Popery (the view that the church has supreme authority over matters civil and ecclesiastical), Erastianism (the view that the church is department of the state, with the chief magistrate as head of the church, ie., Anglicanism) and Presbyterian church-state relations (wherein both church and state are ordinances of God which work in harmony in their separate and distinct spheres to advance the same goals, ie., the glory of God and the good of man).

Psalm 110 teaches us that Christ rules in the midst of his enemies. It refers to Christ's prophetical, priestly and kingly offices. Matthew Henry's comments are instructive.

Nice,I agree with that,even though I am a recon I am not looking for the sword.I am just looking to know for sure,exactly what scripture teaches about this,since I will eventually be in the ministry THANKS

You really can't use this verse to argue for a seperation of church and state. This is refering to the OT economy in Israel, in which both the King and Preist were offices within the OT church, and types of Christ. And kings (i.e. David, Solomon, Hezekiah, etc.) often performed prophetic ( writing music for the temple) and even preistly functions at times (i.e. Solomon sacrificing at the opening of the temple, David sacrificing at the threshing floor on behalf of Israel, etc.). You will also notice that Ps. 110 doesn't just teach us about Christ's kingship, but also His preisthood, as Hebrews clearly lays out for us. Both of these offices are limited to the covenant of grace in the Church. If you are going to use that verse to say Christ is the King of all nations, then you will have to argue he is the preist of all nations as well since his kingship and preist hood are bound together and defined by the covenant. Rom. 13 certainly can be used to teach the seperation though, along with directives in the Noahic covenant which empower the magistrate with the sword to kill murderers.

__________________
Patrick
OPC
MDiv, RTS Jackson.

"He does well, that discourses of Christ; but he does infinitely better, that by experimental knowledge, feeds and lives on Christ." Thomas Brooks.

The church's purpose is to battle in the spiritual realm. The church is called the pillar and the ground of truth (1 Tim. 3:15). We are to use the invisible weapons of the Christian life to battle unbelief and the lie. The state's weapons are visible, and battle physical evil (Romans 13). The church's weapons are invisible, and battle evil ideas. The state uses the physical sword (captial punishment, jails etc.) the church uses the sword of the spirit ( the scriptures).

Well put, Jeff.