Christians and alcohol - Page 4

bwsmith · #**121** (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CarolinaCalvinist

What exactly do you mean by this? Can you substantiate it?

Well . . . I've read some labels -- and when alcohol is added to wine, it is fortified, is it not?

Greg · #**122** (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 07:05 PM

I don't believe alcohol is added to wine. It's my understanding that alcohol occurs naturally as part of the fermentation process.

Exagorazo · #**123** (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 07:10 PM

I believe some alcohol is added to fortified wines (ie. Port, Sherry etc), but the alcohol that is contained in your regular bottle of wine is (as Greg says) a natural effect of the fermentation of the grape.

However, even if we were to establish that wine is more alcoholic these days than it was in Biblical times, how would that help the argument? The Bible still says what it says, and a fortified wine is still less alcoholic than most spirits. Is the drinking of spirits forbidden because it is more alcoholic than wine?

Semper Fidelis · #**124** (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwsmith

Abuse of alcohol comes from the heart – a heart whose worship is disordered. With the multiplication of created substances, comes the multiplication of “worship disorders.” These disorders are oh so apparent in the church – and they are real obvious to those who watch.

Insisting on the right to use a substance that “disables” its imbiber – in time of war – remains unwise.

Could you point me to the Scriptures that define the terms "worship disoroders" and "substance disorders"?

We've had this problem before bw. You like to quote books and catch words but you are very short on Scripture. Perhaps you'd like to try to use some Scripture since this is a Reformed board. I can get psychology from other texts.

Would you like to respond to the fact that you are adding to the Word of God and, in fact, fencing the Law as I have charged. If not, the charge stands and I don't think you have anything to offer other than tradition in this matter.

Jeff_Bartel · #**125** (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 07:16 PM

Ecc 2:3 I searched in my heart how to gratify my flesh with wine, while guiding my heart with wisdom...

calgal · #**126** (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 07:17 PM

Fortified wine = dessert wine. Sherry, port maderia and marsala wines would be fortified. Other wines are NOT fortified. Fortified wines were created to avoid spoilage in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries.

Calvin's salary included 7 barrels of wine (Google is a lovely tool). That being said, moderation is the key in drinking. Know your limits. Alcohol in the church

Semper Fidelis · #**127** (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwsmith

Idolatry is a worship disorder, is it not?

Oh, I see you did try. My apologies.

No, idolatry is not a worship "disorder" - it is a sin. Just like syncretism is a sin - that is taking the philosophies of man and syncretizing them with the Word of God.

I think you've become so comfortable and over-wise in these matters that you've never stopped to consider you cannot provide a single Scriptural warrant for your convictions.

Here's the challenge, bw, put up some Scripture on this. I'm not going to permit this to continue int he Law of God forum where you just keep quoting opinions that echo popular literatue but don't properly exegete Biblical passages or use Biblical terminology. All we'll have is the degeneration of the thread like the forgiveness thread where you could quote every author except the Author to support what you were claiming.

bwsmith · #**128** (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exagorazo

I believe some alcohol is added to fortified wines (ie. Port, Sherry etc), but the alcohol that is contained in your regular bottle of wine is (as Greg says) a natural effect of the fermentation of the grape. C

However, even if we were to establish that wine is more alcoholic these days than it was in Biblical times, how would that help the argument? The Bible still says what it says, and a fortified wine is still less alcoholic than most spirits. Is the drinking of spirits forbidden because it is more alcoholic than wine?

Why do you -- and others – keep returning to “forbidding ?” And was Bible wine 11-14% alcohol – that’s what it is today.
http://www.supermarketguru.com/page.cfm/965

Again – wine/beer is not forbidden – but the consequences that accompany are warned against. Somebody who insists on his or her right to a drink – with a drug that disables or, in 1 in 10, addicts, is unwise. It is like playing Russian roulette – that’s an observation, not forbidding.

Semper Fidelis · #**129** (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwsmith

Why do you -- and others – keep returning to “forbidding ?” And was Bible wine 11-14% alcohol – that’s what it is today.
http://www.supermarketguru.com/page.cfm/965

Again – wine/beer is not forbidden – but the consequences that accompany are warned against. Somebody who insists on his or her right to a drink – with a drug that disables or, in 1 in 10, addicts, is unwise. It is like playing Russian roulette – that’s an observation, not forbidding.

Scripture bw. No more mollycoddling, no more fencing the law. No more appeal to dubious statistics.

No more "talking points" and "shock talk" (disables, Russian roulette).

Do you want to know what is really scary? The anathema for those that try to add to the Gospel.

bwsmith · #**130** (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ivan

I think bwsmith is perhaps saying that for someone to drink is like playing Russian roulette in that if they take a drink they may find that they are an alcoholic and thus eventually die.....or something like that. Please excuse me if I'm way off the mark, bwsmith.

{post deleted by Admin, only Scriptural responses will be admitted by bwsmith from this point on} - SemperFideles

bwsmith · #**131** (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff_Bartel

Ecc 2:3 I searched in my heart how to gratify my flesh with wine, while guiding my heart with wisdom...

Or,
Eccl 2:1-3
2:1 I said to myself, "Come now, I will test you with pleasure. So enjoy yourself." And behold, it too was futility.

2 I said of laughter, "It is madness," and of pleasure, "What does it accomplish?"

3 I explored with my mind how to stimulate my body with wine while my mind was guiding me wisely, and how to take hold of folly, until I could see what good there is for the sons of men to do under heaven the few years of their lives.
NASB

bwsmith · #**132** (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SemperFideles

Scripture bw. No more mollycoddling, no more fencing the law. No more appeal to dubious statistics.

No more "talking points" and "shock talk" (disables, Russian roulette).

Do you want to know what is really scary? The anathema for those that try to add to the Gospel.

I just cited some:

Eccl 2:1-3 –
2:1 I said to myself, "Come now, I will test you with pleasure. So enjoy yourself." And behold, it too was futility.

2 I said of laughter, "It is madness," and of pleasure, "What does it accomplish?"

3 I explored with my mind how to stimulate my body with wine while my mind was guiding me wisely, and how to take hold of folly, until I could see what good there is for the sons of men to do under heaven the few years of their lives. NASB

And I cited quite a good analysis by a wise counselor Ed Welch – who details the tragedy overtaking many folks – and the inability of many in the church to help

Semper Fidelis · #**133** (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwsmith

I just cited some:

Eccl 2:1-3 –
2:1 I said to myself, "Come now, I will test you with pleasure. So enjoy yourself." And behold, it too was futility.

2 I said of laughter, "It is madness," and of pleasure, "What does it accomplish?"

3 I explored with my mind how to stimulate my body with wine while my mind was guiding me wisely, and how to take hold of folly, until I could see what good there is for the sons of men to do under heaven the few years of their lives. NASB

And I cited quite a good analysis by a wise counselor Ed Welch – who details the tragedy overtaking many folks – and the inability of many in the church to help

1. The verse cannot sustain what you are arguing. You have to do better than that to compare wine drinking to suicide. You have to do better than that to coin "worship disabilities" and all the other talk that I am well familiar with - found in counselling texts but not in the Word itself.

2. It is always in the nature of fallen men to believe that the solution to sin is the Law. The irony is that those with the highest per capita incidences of alchoholism are those that most firmly agree with you: Mormons, Free Methodists, Southern Baptists, etc. If you would like to encourage addiction in people then give them as the solution a law that prohibits the use of a thing. It's a sure way to make them powerless over it because they do not trust in the Gospel but in your rule.

bwsmith · #**134** (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SemperFideles

1. The verse cannot sustain what you are arguing. You have to do better than that to compare wine drinking to suicide.

2. It is always in the nature of fallen men to believe that the solution to sin is the Law. The irony is that those with the highest per capita incidences of alchoholism are those that most firmly agree with you: Mormons, Free Methodists, Southern Baptists, etc. If you would like to encourage addiction in people then give them as the solution a law that prohibits the use of a thing. It's a sure way to make them powerless over it because they do not trust in the Gospel but in your rule.

The verse shows the foolishness of the pursuit of anything with a jug of wine – and not everybody who plays Russian roulette commits suicide – but people who argue for their “rights” to go off duty with wine or beer – are unwise. Maybe you should increase your understanding of addiction?

bwsmith · #**135** (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 07:58 PM

And btw -- as you are deleting my responses, please note --I have never once said anything about mandating abstinence -- I have talked about wise conduct in evil days -- for one's own well being -- and helping others who have fallen, get up.

Semper Fidelis · #**136** (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 08:03 PM

bwsmith,

I understand addiction better than you imagine. I also have much more exposure to the psychology texts than you would imagine.

The difference between you and me is not knowledge of such things. I recognize the "Counselor speak" in you immediately because I know the literature. I know the statistics. I've admitted people into treatment for alchohol abuse. I've ordered them into it and I've seen lives destroyed by it.

I've even been fully trained in all the shallow, proof-texting Neuthetic counselling stuff that passes for "Biblical counselling" in many PCA Churches.

The difference between us is our belief in the power of the Gospel. The difference between us is my conviction about the liberty in which we stand in Christ.

Your words expose a Pharasaical tendency - long on the quoting of what other authorities say but short on the ability to properly interpret the Words of Scripture themselves.

This is a Reformed board. We stand on principles found in the Word of God and not the wisdom of men. If you cannot properly exegete or echo the Word then I suggest you study more. You are certainly not in any position to be offering advice here.

Jeff_Bartel · #**137** (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwsmith

Or,
Eccl 2:1-3
2:1 I said to myself, "Come now, I will test you with pleasure. So enjoy yourself." And behold, it too was futility.

2 I said of laughter, "It is madness," and of pleasure, "What does it accomplish?"

3 I explored with my mind how to stimulate my body with wine while my mind was guiding me wisely, and how to take hold of folly, until I could see what good there is for the sons of men to do under heaven the few years of their lives.
NASB

Just as labor is vanity. Yet I don't think that we would make it very far if we did not go to work everyday. I also seem to remember a command that those who do not work, should not eat.

All of the pleasures of this world are vanity apart from God, yet he does give good gifts for us to enjoy IN him.

crhoades · #**138** (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 08:14 PM

Applying the term wisdom to abstaining is a non-starter. Jesus who is Wisdom drank and was accused of being a winebibber by the Pharisees. He created it and it is lawful. There is always a danger in being overwise.

I'll ask again. I am going to have a beer tonight. Will I sin? If not, then the thread is moot if so provide the command in scripture or show by good and necessary consequence thereof.

I have all of CCEF's stuff and am teaching the How People Change curriculum during Sunday School since January. CCEF does aim at the heart but also the law of God and the situation. There is no command forbidding alcohol. My heart is in it to give thanks to God and I won't over indulge, and there is no causing a brother to stumble...

MrMerlin777 · #**139** (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 08:15 PM

Whew! It's getting hot in here....

I think I'll go home, pick up the "Good Book", and pop the top on a good beer.

Semper Fidelis · #**140** (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwsmith

And btw -- as you are deleting my responses, please note --I have never once said anything about mandating abstinence -- I have talked about wise conduct in evil days -- for one's own well being -- and helping others who have fallen, get up.

Yet again, you cannot even see in your words the very un-Biblical injunction you deny.

To be wise, defined by you, is to avoid something altogether. You cannot sustain that this is the Biblical definition of wisdom and yet you ascribe wisdom to it - making it normative.

The believer now has a rule to follow: It's not wise to enter here. Oh, sure, it doesn't say: NO TRESPASSING. It only says: only the unwise enter here. The foolish now claim wisdom because they did not do so.

Yet, all along, this is not a motivation based on liberty in Christ. The believer is not motivated by a conviction that flows out of His love for Christ. He is motivated now by your enjoinment: BE WISE! Any man that allows a Gospel motivation to be replaced by yours is, in fact, entering the path to folly.

Semper Fidelis · #**141** (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 08:29 PM

Finally, to any onlookers, that think this is about wine or beer then you've missed the point. This is about the Gospel itself. This interaction illustrates precisely why Christ was a stone of stumbling for the Pharisees who had so many practical rules with centuries of practice that proved they worked.

Consider Calvin on Christian Liberty and how such a spirit MUST be withstood for the Gospel's sake:

Quote:

Section One: Connection of this chapter with the previous one on Justification. A true knowledge of Christian liberty useful and necessary. 1. It purifies the conscience. 2. It checks licentiousness. 3. It maintains the merits of Christ, the truth of the Gospel, and the peace of the soul.

We are now to treat of Christian Liberty, the explanation of which certainly ought not to be omitted by any one proposing to give a compendious summary of Gospel doctrine. For it is a matter of primary necessity, one without the knowledge of which the conscience can scarcely attempt any thing without hesitation, in many must demur and fluctuate, and in all proceed with fickleness and trepidation. In particular, it forms a proper appendix to Justification, and is of no little service in understanding its force. Nay, those who seriously fear God will hence perceive the incomparable advantages of a doctrine which wicked scoffers are constantly assailing with their jibes; the intoxication of mind under which they labour leaving their petulance without restraint. This, therefore, seems the proper place for considering the subject. Moreover, though it has already been occasionally adverted to, there was an advantage in deferring the fuller consideration of it till now, for the moment any mention is made of Christian liberty lust begins to boil, or insane commotions arise, if a speedy restraint is not laid on those licentious spirits by whom the best things are perverted into the worst. For they either, under pretext of this liberty, shake off all obedience to God, and break out into unbridled licentiousness, or they feel indignant, thinking that all choice, order, and restraint, are abolished. What can we do when thus encompassed with straits? Are we to bid adieu to Christian liberty, in order that we may cut off all opportunity for such perilous consequences? But, as we have said, if the subject be not understood, neither Christ, nor the truth of the Gospel, nor the inward peace of the soul, is properly known. Our endeavor must rather be, while not suppressing this very necessary part of doctrine, to obviate the absurd objections to which it usually gives rise.

Section Four: The second part of Christian liberty, viz., that the conscience, freed from the yoke of the law, voluntarily obeys the will of God. This cannot be done so long as we are under the law. Reason.

Another point which depends on the former is, that consciences obey the law, not as if compelled by legal necessity; but being free from the yoke of the law itself, voluntarily obey the will of God. Being constantly in terror so long as they are under the dominion of the law, they are never disposed promptly to obey God, unless they have previously obtained this liberty. Our meaning shall be explained more briefly and clearly by an example. The command of the law is, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might," (Deut. 6: 5.) To accomplish this, the soul must previously be divested of every other thought and feeling, the heart purified from all its desires, all its powers collected and united on this one object. Those who, in comparison of others, have made much progress in the way of the Lord, are still very far from this goal. For al