Christians and alcohol - Page 3

bwsmith · #81 (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin

The church is coping with SIN not "addictions". (whatever they are)

Perhaps instead of coping the church will help each other overcome?
Addictions are worship disorders. Addictions: Banquet in the Grave, by Ed Welch is quite helpful for those churches who have the courage to help hurting people.

bwsmith · #82 (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theoretical

Biology may make some more prone to fall into certain sins, and for the sake of fleeing temptation they may have to abstain from some blessing or another, but they are ALWAYS responsible for their actions, even where biology makes it hard to be obedient.

I would say that the term addiction should only be applied to certain hard drugs where one gets profound and deadly physical effects from withdrawal (with crack babies for instance).

Biology may well predispose -- one to alcohol abuse – so does practice. That’s probably why Scripture warns, even though it does not prohibit.

I hope you will consider learning about addictions – “Addictions” are behavior that intersects the hear and its eagerness to idolize physical desires, and the influences on our hearts and nurture.

As a starter, I recommend reading [U ]Addictions: Banquet in the Grave[/u] by Ed Welch. (Christian Counseling and Education Fund)

calgal · #83 (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 02:37 PM

Why did Jesus turn water into wine?

bwsmith · #84 (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 02:40 PM

QUOTE=joshua;286417]Maybe I have "gone beyond" what you said, Ma'am, but I certainly didn't argue against any "risk." Rather, I made the point that such a principle can apply to a plethora of things. Allow me some clarification from you, then. When you say you oppose the consumption of alcohol, do you mean just for yourself, or do you mean for all believers? If the latter, how is such a stand different from the Judiazers imposing ceremonial law requirements upon the Galatian Christians? Comparing the consumption of alcohol by all people without exception (Note: not the abuse thereof) to Russian roullette is invalid.[/quote]

It does apply to any number of created things that Christians idolize -- can't live without -- and that quickly disorder our worship. Alcohol however is not quite the same substance it was in Bible times, and using it at times other than meals, or for medicinal purposes is unwise –and it is gambling that statistically one won’t become addicted to a highly addicting substance – sounds like Russian roulette to moi.

bwsmith · #85 (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calgal

I am curious about something: would a church that does allow drinking in moderation have less problems with alcohol than a teetotaling church?

Every PCA church I have attended has had many addiction issues with alcohol. My first pastor, William H. Mahlow -in 1979 said the largest common denominator in the problems for which he counseled was alcohol and drug abuse, and its impact on the family.

bwsmith · #86 (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calgal

Why did Jesus turn water into wine?

Foreshadowing the coming feast?

This first miracle was certainly to to approve the out of control behavior that is wrecking folks' lives today.

etexas · #87 (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calgal

Why did Jesus turn water into wine?

This was a sinful blasphemous question (not in and of itself), your reason behind it is wicked, hence the "clinking mugs" as if you scored some victory.

bwsmith · #88 (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SemperFideles

One wonders why God was not so wise as to prohibit its consumption. You speak of alchohol as some sort of force that compels men to sin in over-indulgence. Touch not, taste not is, in fact, the solution contra Paul.

Do you really think that the Pharisees thought they were doing a bad thing by adding to God's Law? In fact, if you read why they did it, they thought they were helping the people of God. You may not like the comparison but what you're describing above is called "fencing the Law". The Law lacks specificity to protect people as I think they ought, thus here is the new command so you don't even have to get close to that which might have made you stumble. Worried about Sabbath-breaking? Prescribe a distance that a man can travel legally because it's not spelled out in the Law and, don't you know, people will sin and go way past a Sabbath's day journey if we don't tell them.

Of course, it's not in the journey that God's Law has been broken to begin with. It starts in the heart and no amount of mollycoddling and fencing of the Law is going to solve that problem.

Abuse of alcohol comes from the heart – a heart whose worship is disordered. With the multiplication of created substances, comes the multiplication of “worship disorders.” These disorders are oh so apparent in the church – and they are real obvious to those who watch.

Insisting on the right to use a substance that “disables” its imbiber – in time of war – remains unwise.

calgal · #89 (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwsmith

Every PCA church I have attended has had many addiction issues with alcohol. My first pastor, William H. Mahlow -in 1979 said the largest common denominator in the problems for which he counseled was alcohol and drug abuse, and its impact on the family.

What are addiction issues?

crhoades · #90 (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwsmith

Perhaps instead of coping the church will help each other overcome?
Addictions are worship disorders. Addictions: Banquet in the Grave, by Ed Welch is quite helpful for those churches who have the courage to help hurting people.

I don't line up on the teetotaling side but I do echo this book recommendation. It is excellent. There is also an audio book version of it if people have an aversion to reading. Great prices on them here.

calgal · #91 (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fingolfin

This was a sinful blasphemous question (not in and of itself), your reason behind it is wicked, hence the "clinking mugs" as if you scored some victory.

The reason for the clinking mugs was a lack of a good wine drinking smiley.

Do people clink glasses at weddings?

bwsmith · #92 (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin

Wrong. "Alcohol consumption" does not carry warnings, Alcohol Abuse/drunkeness carries warnings.

What I wonder is why so many reformed types who love the scripture try to call what God calls a blessing a curse?

What are warnings about drunkenness if not related to its use; non-drinkers do not become drunk; drinkers run that very use.

The very substance itself mocks, and starts fights – even before intoxication! “Wine is a mocker , strong drink a brawler, And whoever is intoxicated by it is not wise.” Or, as my friend Eugene Peterson puts it: Wine makes you mean, beer makes you quarrelsome — a staggering drunk is not much fun. (Prov 20:1 from THE MESSAGE )

calgal · #93 (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bwsmith

What are warnings about drunkenness if not related to its use; non-drinkers do not become drunk; drinkers run that very use.

The very substance itself mocks, and starts fights – even before intoxication! “Wine is a mocker , strong drink a brawler, And whoever is intoxicated by it is not wise.” Or, as my friend Eugene Peterson puts it: Wine makes you mean, beer makes you quarrelsome — a staggering drunk is not much fun. (Prov 20:1 from THE MESSAGE )

Are all drinkers drunks?

bwsmith · #94 (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crhoades

I don't line up on the teetotaling side but I do echo this book recommendation. It is excellent. There is also an audio book version of it if people have an aversion to reading. Great prices on them here.

Thank you for this link -- it is a wonderful book for people who want to help each other become overcomer's -- and I don't think Dr. Welch insists on teetotaling, either.

bwsmith · #95 (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calgal

What are addiction issues?

Well -- whatever gets between my heart and God -- and the worship He desires.

It includes the old standards – abuse of chemical substances – and sex, but including “new” angles – food, body image problems, (thinness) cutting, ( somewhat new phenomena we discovered in our youth group among young men as well as young women) shopping, internet usage, temper – Gives new meaning to Psalm 90:12

So teach us to number our days, That we may present to Thee a heart of wisdom

crhoades · #96 (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 03:13 PM

Or we could go with the biblical tried and true term of idolatry.

etexas · #97 (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calgal

Are all drinkers drunks?

Many but not all. Just Google in some stats, along with thing like alcohol and crime alcohol and domestic abuse.

calgal · #98 (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fingolfin

Many but not all. Just Google in some stats, along with thing like alcohol and crime alcohol and domestic abuse.

What is a drinker then? Is that anyone who has hoisted a glass of wine? Anyone who has had a Guinness?

etexas · #99 (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 03:21 PM

Just wondering....how much good do some of you think comes from alcohol use? Is it "Hey my cousin Joe puts down a "sixer" a night, what a swell guy!" Is this how the Church thinks now. Are we so much a part of the spirit of this age it is hard to tell Christians from non-Christians?

etexas · #**100** (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calgal

What is a drinker then?

Usually a drunk.

panta dokimazete · #**101** (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 03:24 PM

I think we may have gotten to the "one-liners" portion of the discussion - normally a time to consider wrapping it up until next time...

BTW - this is experience speaking...er...typing...

etexas · #**102** (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calgal

What is a drinker then? Is that anyone who has hoisted a glass of wine? Anyone who has had a Guinness?

How about someone who puts away 5 martinis every evening? where does it stop?

bwsmith · #**103** (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crhoades

Or we could go with the biblical tried and true term of idolatry.

Idolatry is a worship disorder, is it not?

BobVigneault · #**104** (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 03:29 PM

I concur completely JD, I think it's all been said folks. (Sorry about the one-liner.)

calgal · #**105** (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 03:33 PM

That would be obvious but you did not answer the question. Would a pint or a glass of wine every so often equate to a "drinker"?