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08-29-2005, 10:41 AM
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I believe there is some degree of question (on my part) concerning the resurrection and the change of the day from the 7th to the 1st day of the week.
From my perspective, observance of His Sabbaths (notice the plural... which include some of His prescribed Holy Days, or Holy Convocations) are set times in which God expects His people to meet with Him. In essence, this is part of our worship of the living God.
If in fact the Sabbath was changed to Sunday strictly because of a Sunday morning resurrection, I'm not sure this is a legitimate reason for the change. From my perspective, there is either a serious conflict in scripture or there is a serious misconception of the resurrection on my part.
I'm no expert in the matter, but I can not find anywhere in the scripture where God has changed His Sabbath. Furthermore, I simply can not see a Friday execution and Sunday morning resurrection.... to me this appears to be a lie (and not the gospel of Jesus Christ).
I hate to bring this up; however, I am a little confused on the legality of the day itself. Why get hung-up on observance of the day by not doing certain things considered work when the day itself is no different from the rest of the week? Where has God abrogated His Sabbath (sundown to sundown on the 7th day). I do not mean to be contentious, but I would like an answer directly from the scripture.
Thanks.
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08-29-2005, 10:49 AM
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| | | Change of sabbath day
Matt,
What day was the creationary sabbath expressed in Genesis?
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08-29-2005, 11:42 AM
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| | | Change of sabbath day
Scott,
From Psalm 103:7, we see that God made known His ways to Moses. Considering the Spirit wrote Genesis via Moses as well as Exodus & Leviticus, there is no conflict with the law in terms of the 7th Day Sabbath ordained at creation.
Gen Chapter 2 states the creationary Sabbath occurred on the 7th Day and was the only day that was sanctified and named by God (the Lord's Sabbath). From this verse alone we can not tell, so to speak, which "day" of the week this would have occurred.
However, from info given to us in Gen 1:14, Gen 1:15, Lev 23:32 and the institution of the law via Moses, we can now determine how the Israelites numbered their days and measured time. This is what I would say to be "God's Times." This is the manner in which He has instituted the measurement of times, seasons and days. In essence it appears to be a lunar calendar.
I see the instructions for keeping the 7th Day Sabbath were instituted prior to the giving of the law.... not in Gen but in Exodus 16:22-23.
The creationary Sabbath is the same Sabbath given to Moses occurring in accordance with celestial bodies.
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08-29-2005, 11:46 AM
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| | | Change of sabbath day
All of creation itself has changed with the resurrection. We no longer live in the created world, we live in the first stages of the re-created world.
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08-29-2005, 11:49 AM
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Ok. We agree that the sabbath is one day in seven.
As far as the change, I don't believe it is directly related to the resurrection, but indirectly. Christ is the Lord of the sabbath and is able to change the cycling as He see's fit; hence, the change to the 1st day of the week.
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Scott Bushey
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08-29-2005, 11:55 AM
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| | | Change of sabbath day
Fred,
Where has all of creation changed via the resurrection? The celestial bodies have not changed, the laws of nature are still in effect.
Even if all of creation has been changed via the resurrection, how do you pin-point the death and resurrection of Christ in accordance to the scripture? How did Christ die "according to the scriptures?" What measure of time did God use for the death and resurrection of His Son in accordance to the scriptures?
Scott,
Thanks for the reply. If Christ is the Lord of the Sabbath, when did Christ change the day as He saw fit?.... and why would He change the day?
Matt
[Edited on 8-29-2005 by Scott Bushey]
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08-29-2005, 12:05 PM
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| | Quote: Originally posted by Texas Aggie
Fred,
Where has all of creation changed via the resurrection? The celestial bodies have not changed, the laws of nature are still in effect.
Even if all of creation has been changed via the resurrection, how do you pin-point the death and resurrection of Christ in accordance to the scripture? How did Christ die "according to the scriptures?" What measure of time did God use for the death and resurrection of His Son in accordance to the scriptures?
Scott,
Thanks for the reply. If Christ is the Lord of the Sabbath, when did Christ change the day as He saw fit?.... and why would He change the day?
Matt
[Edited on 8-29-2005 by Scott Bushey]
| The Sabbath is not tied to celestial bodies. It was tied to hte work of God. When he rested from the work of creation, the Sabbath was instituted. Likewise, now in the Age to Come, the Sabbath is tied to the work of God - in Christ. For all eternity, what will be commemorated is the resurrection and work of the Lord Jesus Christ, king of all creation.
The Sabbath is a perpetual moral ordinance, with a positive provision for day.
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08-29-2005, 12:21 PM
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Matt, there is no argument from within scripture for the day change. I've been a long time seventh day keeper but now attend a sunday worshipping church. The closest I can come to justifying the day change is by grouping the sabbath with the change of sacraments.
In other words, the boundary markers for the community of faith changed - circumsion was replaced with baptism, passover was replaced with the Lord's supper (more or less), the Temple and the sacrifices were ended. So perhaps a day change is justified by
a need to break with the old covenant and it's boundaries and an establishment of new boudaries, ie. an 8th day Christian sabbath.
I'm not crazy about this argument but it at least gives me some peace in worshipping on Sunday. | 
08-29-2005, 12:56 PM
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I am not opposed to Sunday worship or attending church on Sunday... I attend myself. I do believe it is "above and beyond" what God has prescribed for Himself (observance of His Sabbath on the seventh day). You could go to church everyday and that would be OK by me.
Fred,
We have already established that the 7th day Sabbath of creation is the same Sabbath instituted via Moses and the giving of the law (previous post between Scott and myself listed above).
God's measure of times, days and seasons are infact determined by the celestial bodies (Gen 1:14, Gen 1:14-16, Psalm 104:19, Lev 23:32 are just a few examples). God measures His time in such a fashion.
God is very specific how He numbers His days as well as counts the hours of the day (this is plainly given to us in scripture). All His measurements of time are based on the celestial bodies, specifically, the lunar cycle. This was given directly to Moses. The Holy Days (Feast Days) are also given in accordance with the lunar cycle.
I find it interesting how the devil himself seeks to "change times and laws." I believe there is a reason for such deception.
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08-29-2005, 01:08 PM
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Here is a little paper I wrote on the subject.
SABBATH OBSERVANCE: SATURDAY OR SUNDAY?
The main issue, of course, is whether the Jewish Sabbath continues in the New Covenant age or whether Christians should meet on Sunday. Seventh Day Adventists cite several texts in the New Testament to prove that the disciples kept the Jewish Sabbath. We cannot infer, however, from these texts that Saturday Sabbath keeping is normative for this age. Why? Paul and the other apostles were free to come into the synagogues on Saturday (the Jewish Sabbath) because they knew that the Jews would be gathered there to hear the word of God (as did Christ). In other words they saw it as an opportunity to preach the gospel to a mass of people but not because they believed that it was necessary to observe the commandments of the Old Testament concerning the Jewish people.
Besides, if we want to hold to the Jewish Sabbath, then we would have to say, if we were consistent, that all the laws of the Old Covenant are still in effect now (including the priesthood, sacrifices, punishments etc.). This is why in Colossians 2:16 Paul says we are not to judge one another in food or drink, festivals or Sabbaths.
We have to wrestle with this text to understand its true meaning but it seems obvious that the Sabbath as commonly practiced by the Jews has no hold on Christians now. Note that the context says that Christ has "wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us." The meaning of "wiped out" is to destroy, or make clean. And then Paul says "so" in verse 16 to connect it to the meaning of verse 14 and 15. In other words he says (my paraphrase) "since Christ in his atonement destroyed the necessity of keeping these laws, you no longer should judge each other in these matters.
Added to this is the evidence of the meaning of the word "Sabbath: it does not mean "Saturday. It simply means "rest or "stop. That the Jews rested or stopped working on Saturday is a particular application of the fourth commandment but not of its essence. "Remember the Sabbath day" is to do our work in six days and rest the seventh (Exodus 20:8-10). It doesnt specify in the text what day of the week the Sabbath is. For a Christian to work Monday-Saturday and then to rest on Sunday in no way revokes the fourth commandment because they are living by its basic principle.
But if we want to get to the meaning or application of the Sabbath in the New Testament we must see it in its fullness; its relation to the Lord of the Sabbath. (Mark 2:28).1 This is evident from 1 Corinthians 16:1-2. In context we are told to abound "in the work of the Lord, knowing that [our] labor is not in vain in the Lord." (1 Corinthians 15:58) This is why we gather to give offerings on "the first day of every week" (16:2), which is a token of our thankfulness to God in his delivery to us from death and sin (1 Corinthians 15:56-57). Note that this is similar to the Old Testament practice of bringing animals and birds to be sacrificed on the Sabbath. (Numbers 28:9-10) Offerings in the Old Testament were a sign of forgiveness as well as thankfulness, as they are in the New Testament.
The author of Hebrews reflects on this fulfillment aspect of the Sabbath as well when he says that "a rest for the people of God" remains (Hebrews 4:9) The rest in this passage reflects the rest which we receive from God by faith in His Son Jesus Christ. The place of rest is heaven because the Christians are warned in verse 6 of chapter 4 that some did not enter into it. We "have a great High Priest," Jesus Christ, who is already in heaven; the rest of God (4:14). He has entered "into heaven itself" because he has offered Himself to God for our sins (Hebrews 9:24-26) The Sabbath day in the New Testament, therefore, must specifically reference Christs atoning work. The Messiah was resurrected; He is now seated in heaven. He then imparts life through His atonement as the resurrected Lord because His work is finished. This life as it is imparted to us by the Holy Spirit is found in our regeneration unto eternal life (1 Corinthians 15:51-57).2 And the day of resurrection, the day of life, was the first day of the week or Sunday, as we call it (Luke 24:1,6) In other words, the New Testament is relating to us the observance of the Sabbath through the lens of the new redemptive situation.
As one scholar has noted, Peter speaks in a similar vein in Acts 4:10-11. He is speaking about the risen Lord. (vs. 10) Verse 11 is a quotation from Psalm 118:22 to prove that He still lives or reigns in power insofar as the cripple is healed in His name. In the context of the quote from Psalm 118 we read "this is the day the Lord has made; we will rejoice and be glad in it." Again, the resurrection brings forth a new perspective; one wherein a man who could not walk now can (the power of the resurrection). This is related to the day of resurrection so as to make us rejoice and be glad! Thus in the worship of the saints we commemorate the resurrection of Christ as the new Sabbath day which was made.
We should also note that in Acts 20:7 Paul gathered with the disciples ("on the first day of the week"), which should be understood to be as Sunday. (cf. 1 Corinthians 16:2). Why? Because verse six mentions "for seven days" which is an indicator that the week has passed since in Jewish practice Saturday-Friday was a week, so the Saturday functions as the seventh day. The next day, "the first day" is a day where the disciples gather, break bread and hear Paul preach. Thus Sunday is the acceptable day of worship for the New Covenant people.
Remember this is the pattern in the Old Testament: a continual cycle of seven days. The eighth day (the day after the Sabbath) has a rich meaning behind it as (see Leviticus 23:36,39; Numbers 29:35) reflected in the New Testament fulfillment in Christ. On the eighth day, in certain circumstances, there was to be no work but there was atonement offered. So Christ rested on the resurrection day from His works in relation to His atonement (cf. discussion above on Hebrews 4).
Furthermore, Christ is called the "first-fruits" of the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:20,23 which is a reference back to the Old Testament practice of offering the first part of the harvest unto God. This was given on the day after the Sabbath (Leviticus 23:10-11). Our Sunday worship is thus a commemoration of the New Testament first-fruit, Jesus Christ whose resurrection is now a sure promise of our resurrection.
By now it should be clear by what I have said that Sunday observance is not a matter of finding a text that says, "worship on Sunday." It is by inference that we establish this truth. As Reformed Christians we do believe in a type of Sabbath observance. For the fourth commandment is not based on theocratic law (laws that pertained only to the Jews in the state of Israel) but creation law. After all, God reminds even the Jews of their obligation to keep the Sabbath for the very reason that God Himself rested on the seventh day of creation. (Exodus 20:8-11) There are differences in the way the Sabbath is upheld between the Old and the New Testament but its essence remains.
In conclusion we cannot just ignore the fourth commandment. It is applicable today as ever. But it does not command us to keep the Jewish ceremonies. Indeed all of the Ten Commandments are relevant for us today but not in the exactly the same way that they were in the Old Testament. Even a Seventh Day Adventist must admit this. The ceremonies and punishments of the Old Covenant are done away in Christ, but the essence of the Law remains. If we obey the fourth commandment we must observe it unto the Lord Jesus Christ but we cannot be bound to Saturday but the new Sabbath day that He has made..
1. This statement is, of course, consistent with our Lords teaching concerning Himself: namely that He is Lord of heaven and earth. Thus the Sabbath is his jurisdiction as "Lord and determined by Him alone. The Pharisees accused Christ of breaking the Sabbath, but only He knew how to truly live and practice it (cf. Matthew 12:1-12; Luke 4:16,31; 13:10-16; John 5:9-18)
2. Note how often the New Testament refers to this as being an act of recreation or something new: Romans 6:4; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15; Ephesians 4:22-25; Colossians 3:9-10; 1 Peter 1:3; Titus 3:5. Since the Sabbath is reflective of creation (Genesis 2:2,3; Exodus 20:8-11) this new creation demands a new day.
[Edited on 8-29-2005 by poimen]
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08-29-2005, 02:04 PM
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We are living in the already/not-yet New Earth, thus the change in Sabbath (as Fred pointed out, although he might not agree with the first part of my assertion).
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08-29-2005, 02:23 PM
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"Besides, if we want to hold to the Jewish Sabbath, then we would have to say, if we were consistent, that all the laws of the Old Covenant are still in effect now (including the priesthood, sacrifices, punishments etc.). This is why in Colossians 2:16 Paul says we are not to judge one another in food or drink, festivals or Sabbaths."
Keep in mind Pastor Dan that the Scripture makes no distinction between a Jewish or Christian Sabbath, there is only the Sabbath.
The Sabbath was NOT instituted by Moses or the law, it is ordained as part of creation from the beginning. Moses reminds us to keep it holy.
There were many lesser sabbaths that were added by the jewish leaders. These were not THE Sabbath and it is these lesser sabbaths that Paul is addressing.
You are correct in saying that the change of day can only be inferred, this is the doctrine of "sola inferra." | 
08-29-2005, 02:40 PM
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Thanks for the responses. My main question, I suppose, revolves around Christ being "Lord of the Sabbath." I am under the belief that the resurrection is the chief reason the "Christian Sabbath" was changed to Sunday away from the "Jewish Sabbath". Is this a true statement?
If this is a true statement, I can not support this idea. I do not see a Friday execution and Sunday morning resurrection. This is not how Christ was killed and resurrected in accordance with the scripture. If He did not die according to the scripture, then He is not God (and we have a much bigger problem than trying to figure out the right day).
Well written article Daniel. I can see clearly in the scriptures where the priesthood and animal sacrifices have changed. I can not find where God's prescribed Holy Days nor Sabbaths have been thrown out. I can neither find where the moral law or judgments have been abrogated.
New Earth now or later, it does not seem to matter. God's Sabbaths will always be the same, precisely the same and forever unchanging. The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ occurred precisely as God intended in fulfillment of the law. It occurred exactly as the gospel proclaims it did (according to the scriptures).
Still not sure when, where and why our "Lord of the Sabbath" changed His Holy Day from the 7th Day to the 1st Day. Please show me.
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08-29-2005, 02:47 PM
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| | Quote: Originally posted by maxdetail
"Besides, if we want to hold to the Jewish Sabbath, then we would have to say, if we were consistent, that all the laws of the Old Covenant are still in effect now (including the priesthood, sacrifices, punishments etc.). This is why in Colossians 2:16 Paul says we are not to judge one another in food or drink, festivals or Sabbaths."
Keep in mind Pastor Dan that the Scripture makes no distinction between a Jewish or Christian Sabbath, there is only the Sabbath.
The Sabbath was NOT instituted by Moses or the law, it is ordained as part of creation from the beginning. Moses reminds us to keep it holy.
There were many lesser sabbaths that were added by the jewish leaders. These were not THE Sabbath and it is these lesser sabbaths that Paul is addressing.
You are correct in saying that the change of day can only be inferred, this is the doctrine of "sola inferra." | Jewish Sabbath, Christian Sabbath or OT, NT Sabbath: same thing. (Hebrews 4:9) As I said in my paper, 'Sabbath' means rest, cease or stop. The name itself does not pertain to a particular redemptive era. It is only restricted in its interpretation when it is applied within that redemptive era. As I noted in my paper there is a change of the day because of the redemption of Christ.
The Mosaic Sabbath was based upon creation but in creation the day was not stipulated until the time of Mosaic era. From creation until now, the 6-1 cycle continues. I noted this clearly in my paper; you obviously did not take the time to carefully read it.
Where does it say in Colossians 2:16-17 that Paul is addressing lesser Sabbaths? Everyone of those 'ordinances' is from the OT law my friend; including the OT Sabbath. It too is wiped out and taken away.
Inference? It seems you make many inferences in your response. As Greg Bahsen once said "I don't have problems with inferences, I have a problem with YOUR inferences." The Sabbath is based upon creation as I said. It is a commandment which we are perpetually obligated to keep. The OT Sabbath was based upon God's creation and deliverance. A new creation (the resurrection of Christ) demands a new day. How could it be clearer?
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08-29-2005, 03:12 PM
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The OT Sabbaths (plural) indicate to me that certain feast days were also treated as 7th Day Sabbaths (where no servile work was to be done). These Holy Days (feast days) were treated as 7th Day Sabbaths because they were "High Days" which did not necessarily occur in conjunction with the 7th Day Sabbath. They were Sabbaths but did not fall on the 7th Day.
Passover for example is one of the seven feast days; however, it is not labeled as a "Sabbath Day."
The Feast of Unleavened Bread occurred on the 15th Day of the 1st Month and a "Sabbath Day" was to be observed on the 1st and 7th day of the duration. We can say that this feast was a "High Day."
First Fruits (which occurred the very first day after the 7th Day Sabbath following the Passover was not treated has a "High Day" or Sabbath.
Pentecost occurred 50 days following First Fruits was always a High Day treated as a Sabbath.... but it occurred always on the 1st day of the week.
Trumpets was considered a High Day (occurring on the 1st day of the 7th month). It was also considered a Sabbath Day where no servile work was to be accomplished.
Atonement occurred on the 10th day of the 7th month and was treated as a Sabbath day.
Tabernacles began on the 15th day of the 7th month and lasted 8 days. The 1st and the 8th days were to be Sabbaths were no servile work was to be accomplished.
These are the only feast days prescribed by God. Anything else is not of Him.
How does the resurection of Christ demand a new day? The question is "when did Christ die and when did He come out of the grave?" When did Christ die according to the scriptures? What scriptures is the Spirit talking about?
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08-29-2005, 05:45 PM
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| | Quote: Originally posted by Texas Aggie
How does the resurection of Christ demand a new day?
| We have a direct statement from Scripture:
Psalm 118:
22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.
23 This is the LORD's doing; it is marvelous in our eyes.
The stone (Christ) was rejected on Good Friday when He was crucified. The stone became the "head stone of the corner" on Sunday morning, when He victoriously rose from the dead. So, Psalm 118:22-23 was fulfilled on a Sunday.
And the very next verse (118:24) says, " This is the day which the LORD hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it."
Was that clear to Old Testament people? Of course not. They didn't know on what day the Psalm 118:22-23 prophecy would be fulfilled. But we do know. And we are told to "rejoice and be glad" in THAT day . . . Sunday. And this is corroborated by the practice of the early church, recorded in Acts 20:7.
source: The Lord's Day - Sunday - The Christian Sabbath Quote: Originally posted by Texas Aggie
The question is "when did Christ die and when did He come out of the grave?" When did Christ die according to the scriptures?
| We know that Jesus was raised on Sunday, not Saturday. He said that He would be buried 3 days, not 4 (Luke 24:7). And on Sunday, after the sun had already risen (cf. Luke 24:1), two men walked to Emmaus (Luke 24:13), and said:
"we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, today is the third day since these things were done" (Luke 24:21).
[Edited on 8-29-2005 by biblelighthouse]
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08-31-2005, 08:59 AM
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Good Friday and the Sunday morning (Easter) resurrection is a traditional papal lie. This is not how Christ died "according to the scriptures" (1Corinthians 15:1-4).
Exodus 12:1-17 is an excellent place to start. If Jesus Christ, "the Lamb of God" (John 1:29), is indeed "our Passover" (1 Corinthians 5:7), it would follow that His death would be in accordance with the ordinance He represented and fulfilled.
By the time Mary Magdalene and company came to the sepulcher in Luke 24:1, Christ was already risen (He was out of the grave).
Luke 23:50-56 contains two separate Sabbath days. One was the day immediately following the Passover (14th day) which was called the Feast of Unleavened Bread (15th day). This day was considered a Sabbath Day, a holy convocation wherein no servile work was to be accomplished (see Leviticus 23:3-7).
The Sabbath in Luke 23:54 is the Feast of Unleavened Bread. The Sabbath in Luke 23:56 is the 7th Day Sabbath according to the commandment. The day of "preparation" is the Passover. Take a look at Mark 15:42 and Mark 16:1. We see the same thing (two separate Sabbath days).
Jesus Christ died at 3 pm on Wednesday the 14th of the Month (the Lords Passover). The following day (the 15th), our Thursday, was a High Day (a Sabbath) called the Feast of Unleavened Bread. They prepared additional spices and ointments on Friday, which took all day. They could not go to the tomb on Saturday (the 7th day Sabbath). They had to wait until Sunday, the first day of the week... which actually began at sundown on Saturday (Gods measure of a day).
By the time Mary arrived, early, on Sunday "when it was yet dark," Christ was already resurrected out of the grave. Jesus could have risen any time after 3 pm on Saturday, the Lords Sabbath (and end of the 72-hour period). Jesus Christ was resurrected in the late afternoon on the 17th day of the month (the 7th Day Sabbath of God). This makes Him Lord of the Sabbath.
A death on Friday and subsequent resurrection on Sunday does not constitute "three days and three nights" in accordance with the prophecy of Jonah (please see Matthew 12:38-40). A death on Friday and resurrection on Sunday constitutes two nights and one whole day.
Ash Wednesday, Good Friday and Easter are nothing more than distortions of the truth. It is interesting how Easter is a day that is celebrated annually anytime between the 22nd of March to the 25th of April. It is always the first Sunday after the full moon and after the vernal equinox (it is never observed on the same day each year). It is of pagan origin and not of a Holy God.
Still, I wonder if the Lords Sabbath was changed to Sunday because of Marys early morning discovery of an empty tomb on the 1st day of the week. Possibly Constantine could shed some light on the matter for me.
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08-31-2005, 09:10 AM
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| | Quote:
Still, I wonder if the Lords Sabbath was changed to Sunday because of Marys early morning discovery of an empty tomb on the 1st day of the week. Possibly Constantine could shed some light on the matter for me.
| Just for the record, do you agree that a change occured?
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I would agree that man and the devil have changed the day.... not God.
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Matt Daniel
Attending First Presbyterian Church, Las Vegas NV
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08-31-2005, 10:43 AM
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Do you agree that, according to scripture and our confessions that the new testament church meets on the Lords day?
[Edited on 8-31-2005 by Scott Bushey]
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Scott Bushey
Husband to Tina, father to Nicole, Danielle and Zoe
Member First Presbyterian Church of Margate PCA
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08-31-2005, 10:11 PM
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I agree that the New Testament church meets on Sunday in accordance with the confessions. I can not find the change in scripture and I do not acknowledge the "Christian Sabbath" as God's Sabbath. I am not the judge of the church.
With that said, I by no means condemn or pass judgment on anyone who observes the Sabbath or attends church on Sunday. After all, I attend church on Sunday but I consider this "above and beyond" that which He has prescribed.
If I am completely wrong, God is my judge. I make no issue of this at my church either and I have found very few people, through the span of my life, with this same view.
I observe God's Sabbath beginning at sundown Friday and ending sundown Saturday. This is my time of rest and communion with God via the study of His word. This is my faith and this is what I gather from the scripture.
I simply do not see a change of the day based on the belief that the resurrection of Christ occurred on Sunday; therefore, I can not acknowledge Sunday as the Lords Sabbath.
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Matt Daniel
Attending First Presbyterian Church, Las Vegas NV
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