We would all agree that the magistrate should protect and ensure the right of the poor to justice. But what about caring for the afflicted among society? If there are people in his domain starving to death, what is he to do, as God's ordained agent to preserve order and life in society?

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Patrick
OPC
MDiv, RTS Jackson.

"He does well, that discourses of Christ; but he does infinitely better, that by experimental knowledge, feeds and lives on Christ." Thomas Brooks.

Good question. Since the rulers of Israel are condemned for their treatment of the poor. I wonder how the general equity would apply here.

I think we do need to make sure we really focus on what your question was here: the afflicted in society and not the slothful or criminal but truly afflicted.

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Rich
Okinawa, Japan

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Semper Fi I agree with your line of thought. I wonder what the intention of the original post is towards the "poor".

(By the way I went through Jungle Warfare up at Camp Gonsalves)...

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Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA
Fairmount ARP Church
Student of Theology
Pittsburgh Theological Seminary
Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary
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"Man's attempt to enter heaven on his own terms places him instead in hell." -- R.J. Rushdoony

What is the magistrated obligated to do to relieve the afflicted in his domain?

For example, how much should he meddle with the economy? Can he justly raise taxes to help the afflicted? I'm sure we could think of other areas. And yes, by afflicted or "poor" I don't mean lazy, but those in genuinely harsh conditions.

Well for starters it would depend on whether or not the magistrate was God-fearing. Secondly I would not want to take too much pressure of the Church to care for the poor.

I have much more tolerance for a lazy afflicted person than one who is financially able to help. Desperate people do not act rationally. Believe me, I have been there and am not lazy one bit. I hear situations like this with the soup kitchen I fascilitate in our congregation. The people who complain the most are the most affluent blue bloods in our assembly. Always worried about someone beating the system. One person almost punched me during a meeting when I said he is the person james condmens.


James 2
The Sin of Partiality
1(A)My brethren, (B)do not hold your faith in our (C)glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of (D)personal favoritism.

2For if a man comes into your assembly with a gold ring and dressed in (E)fine clothes, and there also comes in a poor man in (F)dirty clothes,

3and you pay special attention to the one who is wearing the (G)fine clothes, and say, "You sit here in a good place," and you say to the poor man, "You stand over there, or sit down by my footstool,"

4have you not made distinctions among yourselves, and become judges (H)with evil motives?

5Listen, (I)my beloved brethren: did not (J)God choose the poor of this world to be (K)rich in faith and (L)heirs of the kingdom which He (M)promised to those who love Him?

15(AA)If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,

16and one of you says to them, "(AB)Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?

As far as the magistrate, do you mean the govt? Have not given much thought because I find it is the chrch's responsibility too, and that is what I am involved in. But the community should help wherever they can.

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N. Robert; Trinity Reformed Church RCA, Holland MI

Once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right."

Deuteronomy 14: 28-29:

"At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:
And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest."

Note that this is a moral obligation, grounded in covenant, to put aside 10% of your income for welfare. It looks more like a civil function than a religious one.

Contrary to my free-market libertarian leanings, it looks pretty much like an income tax for the poor and the landless.

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R.Vic Bottomly
Providence Reformed Baptist Church, Tacoma, WA

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This is an interesting discussion because it follows that the next question is, should the government tax to care for the poor? In the USA it's turned into a welfare state which is no more biblical than ignoring the poor. So often, the real poor are the ones begging at the food kitchens while the "cheats" are living off the hard-earned income of the middle class.

Here's an idea, what if the government required that everyone set aside a percentage of their money for the needs of the community. Hmm, isn't that what my church already does with the monthly deacon's offering?

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J Baldwin
Keowee Presbyterian Church, PCA
Pickens, SC
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” Luke 10:27

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It shouldn't matter whether the magistrate is godly or not. The moral obligation is universal, whether you are pagan or Christian. My question is, what is that moral obligation on the part of the magistrate (i.e gov'ment)? It's impossible for the church to care for all the poor, unless you had a majority Christian nation with a sizable upper and middle class. Perhaps a situation like this is foreign to us Westerners, but to the rest of the world, this is a real concern. That's why socialism is so popular in Latin America, Asia, and Africa. Just trying to work through this. Where's the theonomists? I thought they would have jumped on this.

Well depends on how many tithes you think that there were in the OT. It there is just one, then I am not sure I would qualify it as an income tax. It would just be money out of regular required giving. Also if you want to call it a tax, then you would need to show where the magistrate is given power to "enforce" this tax.

CT

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Hermonta Godwin
Christ The King PCA
Raleigh, NC

As there is no civil penalty attached for disobedience, then it is not the civil magistrate's function to force people to help the poor.

Remember, the magistrate is forbidden to be partial to the poor (Lev. 19:15), this obviously forbids him from appropriating the money of the rich(er) and giving it to the poor. The state is only entitled to claim taxation for its legitimate functions of administering justice (Rom. 13:1-7).

Moreover, the idea of "cradle to the grave security" seeks to provide men with insurance against God's providential judgments upon a nation.

For more on this issue (sorry I can't expand on it now) see chapter 6 "Christianity versus Statism" (especially the sub-section "Christianity and Statist Welfare") of my next book A Conquered Kingdom: Biblical Civil Government, which should be out in the next few weeks.

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

Interesting.

The OT law about leaving some grains left in the field (you know, Ruth and then later Jesus and his disciples plucked those grains on the sabbath)....does that have anything that is well "generally equitable" today?

Would that mean that a hobo could grain an ear of corn off the ground as he passed by..or something similar?

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Daniel, this has nothing to do with helping regarding the welfare of the poor. This soley is about being in a court of justice. If a poor destitute is guilty of a crime, he is to be shown no partiality becasue of his economic condition.

To claim that being poor is God's judgement is as ridiculous as being rich is God's blessing. External circumstances are not a barometer in the new cov.

I agree with the first statement. But since the magistrate is not to engage in welfare redistribution as welfare is the duty of the church and family, then the state (when it engages in redistributive welfare) is using its coercive power to appropriate (i.e. steal) money from one group in society to give it to another, thus it is showing favouritism to the poor(er).

I do, however, believe that poor nations, not poor people individually, are poor as the result of God's judgment upon them. But that is

Eze 22:25 [There is] a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things; they have made her many widows in the midst thereof.
Eze 22:26 Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane, neither have they shewed [difference] between the unclean and the clean, and have hid their eyes from my sabbaths, and I am profaned among them.
Eze 22:27 Her princes in the midst thereof [are] like wolves ravening the prey, to shed blood, [and] to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain.
Eze 22:28 And her prophets have daubed them with untempered [morter], seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken.
Eze 22:29 The people of the land have used oppression, and exercised robbery, and have vexed the poor and needy: yea, they have oppressed the stranger wrongfully.

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1689 Baptist Confession

Psa 55:16 As for me, I will call upon God; and the LORD shall save me.
Psa 55:17 Evening, and morning, and at noon, will I pray, and cry aloud: and he shall hear my voice.
James Farley, Wilderness Road Baptist Assembly.
Husband of Melissa and father of Ann.
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If we all agree that it is primarily the church's role and not the states (not debating if there is or is not a role for the state at this point)..
And we saw that there were people going without food...
And we saw churches that weren't taking care of the poor...
And they were building large multiplexes/cathedrals with the money instead...

As a magistrate they should call a meeting of the pastors or a synod and exhort them to begin taking care of the poor.

But alas, by our confessional revisions and the general attitude reigning today that would break separation of church and state even though it is only the classically reformed/presbyterian distinction of being circa sacra.

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Chris Rhoades -33
Good Shepherd Presbyterian Church (PCA) Nashville, TN-Under Care

Vera theologia non theoretica, sed practica est; Finis siquidem eius agere est hoc est vitam vivere deiformem. - Martin Bucer
""True theology is not theoretical, but practical. The end of it is living, that is to live a godly life."

If advocating the cause of the poor is a legitimate function of the magistrate, then taxation for that purpose would also be legitimate. The state has no other way to fund it's obligations.

I do agree that the magistrate could ask the churches to help. But if the Christian population is too small, then that won't help much.

I'm trying to drive this back to what the magistrate is obligated to do, when people in his domain are afflicted by poverty, not because of laziness but because of genuine hardships (famines, recessions, disease, etc.).

If he's suppose to preserve life (6th commandment), doesn't that include ensuring his people don't die of starvation, just as much as it does protecting them from murderers?

I think we can agree that the commandment was a moral obligation directed toward the physical welfare of the poor and the Levites. The "base" of the levy was their increase. The rate was 10% for this particular fund. That's why I said it looked like an income tax.

But is enforcement an issue? Suppose we had a tax code that said everyone must pay 10% of their income, but nobody would be thrown in jail if they didn't. Instead, we will rely on social pressure for enforcement. Would it not still be a tax?

I think tithing is a valid principle today. I do not call tithing a tax. We are morally obligated to do quite a few things. I see no reason to call them a tax if there is no government enforcement.

CT

It looks like this is part of the 10% tithe paid to the Levites. As they made up 1/12 of the people, there would be a small amount left over, if 10% were paid and it was distributed equally, though the amount would be less than 2%. More likely things were not calculated so finely, and whatever was tithed was distributed to those who were in need, Levites and others.

As far as today goes:
we are not in a bronze age agricultural society which has little technological change for a millennium. Nor do we have a priestly tribe which necessarily makes up one in twelve of the population. I can't see a figure of 10% of income exactly being the required contribution. But the principle, that we should give generously from what we have been blessed with, remains.

If I can be blunt, and make a judgement call with which you are all free to disagree, most churches are appalling at giving or lending money or other aid to those in financial distress in our covenant communities. There are exceptions, and some care must be taken to ensure we are not duped by the lazy or dishonest, but too often we are unwilling to give any but token help to those in need, and even then it is done grudgingly. I have seen people pray greatly that a family will have improvement in its finances, but be unwilling to do anything to assist. How is this different to saying "go, be warm and well fed" but doing nothing? Why should God listen to our prayers in such circumstances? Especially those of us who are opposed to government welfare should be gladly generous and looking to be able to make a real difference to the poor and oppressed.

That the church is incapable of looking after all the poor is no reason for the church to support government welfare. Churches are capable of supporting all of the church community, and could probably do a great deal more. It is not our role to try to force unbelievers to be generous to each other, via the civil magistrate instituting taxation and welfare payments. Historically the main result of this has been everyone, Christians included, being vastly less generous to the poor in their voluntary giving.

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T W Hopper
Member, Presbyterian Reformed Church
Currently between chu