Thread: An argument against observing the Sabbath according to the sun's position

This just occurred to me.

Some advocate a sunset to sunset Sabbath observance, instead of midnight to midnight. The are also other views that are based on sunrise or sunset.

How would this be possible in the arctic? I am sure that there are believers in the Arctic regions. In the summer, you might get "trapped" in a Sabbath that lasts for weeks. In the winter, you might never have a Sabbath for several months.

Now, this would not have been a problem for those living before Christ, in the broad region we know as the Holy Land, since that is a mid-latitude area of the world. God's people were confined to that geographical area, so there would be no problem to observe a sunset to sunset practice.

Not so now. There are believers everywhere. To me, this supports midnight to midnight.

How does that support midnight to midnight? Why not 11:00 to 11:00? Or 2:36 to 2:36? The problem with a midnight to midnight observance is that there is no scriptural warrant for it. The scriptures do clearly teach that a day is to be observed from evening to evening though.

Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

And there is clear command from God to keep the Sabbath from evening to evening.

Lev 23:32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

The people in those areas that you spoke of would need to choose an hour in the evening of the seventh day to observe until the same hour the first day.

Originally Posted by Tim

This just occurred to me.

Some advocate a sunset to sunset Sabbath observance, instead of midnight to midnight. The are also other views that are based on sunrise or sunset.

How would this be possible in the arctic? I am sure that there are believers in the Arctic regions. In the summer, you might get "trapped" in a Sabbath that lasts for weeks. In the winter, you might never have a Sabbath for several months.

Yep that is the argument I posed on a previous thread on time to observe the sabbath
lots of good debate on it, you can check it out

Originally Posted by PresReformed

How does that support midnight to midnight?

Logically speaking, my argument doesn't insist on a positive warrant for midnight to midnight. I'll grant that. What I am trying to do is show that in some areas of the world, it would not be possible to follow an observance based on the sun's position.

The problem with a midnight to midnight observance is that there is no scriptural warrant for it. The scriptures do clearly teach that a day is to be observed from evening to evening though.

There are other threads that provide extensive arguments for both sides. It is not my intention to re-examine such material here, only to show what I see to be a practical problem with sunset to sunset.

The people in those areas that you spoke of would need to choose an hour in the evening of the seventh day to observe until the same hour the first day.

Your suggestion that arctic people would have to pick a time when evening starts seems arbitrary and inconsistent with the practice based on the sun's position that you support. If we are free to choose our own Sabbath hours, then midnight to midnight is equally acceptable.

I'm quite sure I'm ignorant concerning the population spread theory....but how can we be completely sure no one lived in the Arctic when the Sabbath was placed in the Ten on Mt Sinai? It is my understand that the earth was not tilted before the flood, and thus, each country received that same amount of light at all times. I'm not smart enough to confirm or dispute this theory, but when the flood came a tremendous change of the earth occurred, and it was after the flood that God promised the different seasons via seedtime and harvest etc. When the Sabbath was first established in the garden no one lived anywhere but in the garden and yet the Sabbath applied to places where people would eventually live.

hum...maybe just maybe our true sabbath rest is in Jesus according to Hebrews 4, and all the rest of the discussion is periferal???

However, as one who respects observing a day as predating the Mosaic law, it is not about the sun. Even in NJ it goes down before 5 in winter and maybe 3 hours later in summer. It is after dinner (or supper if you call the evening meal that) to after the same evening meal the next night. I assume eskimos eat on a similar three meal schedule to the rest of the world.

Just one more proof for why we should all live in warm places like Virginia!

Originally Posted by lynnie

I assume eskimos eat on a similar three meal schedule to the rest of the world.

Eskimos eat whenever they can catch a fish or a seal or a whale.

But dawn o dusk would not apply to them or siberians and it hardly applies to me in Seattle in the winter it is dusk at 4:30 pm

Its not that we are not to have a whole day for the Lord's day, it is that it is from the heart not the letter. It is the desire of our heart to enter into the practice of heaven. So we do not need to be told what part of the day to do it. If we desire to enter the precursor rest to heaven we will do the time. Who ever would not like the Lord's day here will probably not enjoy heaven.

I need it more now then I will probably then. I speak as a fool not knowing what I am talking about.

Originally Posted by PeaceMaker

Originally Posted by lynnie

I assume eskimos eat on a similar three meal schedule to the rest of the world.

Eskimos eat whenever they can catch a fish or a seal or a whale.

But dawn o dusk would not apply to them or siberians and it hardly applies to me in Seattle in the winter it is dusk at 4:30 pm

Its not that we are not to have a whole day for the Lord's day, it is that it is from the heart not the letter. It is the desire of our heart to enter into the practice of heaven. So we do not need to be told what part of the day to do it. If we desire to enter the precursor rest to heaven we will do the time. Who ever would not like the Lord's day here will probably not enjoy heaven.

I need it more now then I will probably then. I speak as a fool not knowing what I am talking about.

If you are a fool who doesn't know what he is talking about, why are you sharing your ignorance with everyone? I want to hear from someone who knows what he's talking about. I don't want to be led into a ditch by a blind person.

Originally Posted by Davidius

If you are ...

I would urge you to re-think the tone of your post.

Originally Posted by Davidius

I need it more now then I will probably then. I speak as a fool not knowing what I am talking about.

If you are a fool who doesn't know what he is talking about, why are you sharing your ignorance with everyone? I want to hear from someone who knows what he's talking about. I don't want to be led into a ditch by a blind person.[/QUOTE]

I am sorry to have bothered you. I meant that only as a qualifier to the statement just before it, comparing something in this life to heaven, about which I know so little to nothing.

I meant to use it as it was here used 2 Cor 11:23 Are they ministers of Christ? — I speak as a fool — I am more: NKJV

Please forgive me for this figure of speech.

Originally Posted by sjonee

I'm quite sure I'm ignorant concerning the population spread theory....but how can we be completely sure no one lived in the Arctic when the Sabbath was placed in the Ten on Mt Sinai? It is my understand that the earth was not tilted before the flood, and thus, each country received that same amount of light at all times. I'm not smart enough to confirm or dispute this theory, but when the flood came a tremendous change of the earth occurred, and it was after the flood that God promised the different seasons via seedtime and harvest etc. When the Sabbath was first established in the garden no one lived anywhere but in the garden and yet the Sabbath applied to places where people would eventually live.

I would assume that if there were people living far away from Sinai (i.e., arctic) at that time, they would not have had the Ten Commandments anyway.

Originally Posted by PeaceMaker

Its not that we are not to have a whole day for the Lord's day, it is that it is from the heart not the letter. It is the desire of our heart to enter into the practice of heaven. So we do not need to be told what part of the day to do it.

It is the desire of my heart to obey what God commands. If the Bible gives an answer to this specific question, I want to know it, so I can obey God.

Originally Posted by Tim

I would assume that if there were people living far away from Sinai (i.e., arctic) at that time, they would not have had the Ten Commandments anyway.

What?

What about today. Were they only to obey the 4th commandment back when it was given?

No, So God would not give instructions that could not be followed by all people for all time in all places.

So this is why it is not specified a start and end time.

Also consider shift workers who start work at 11 pm and get off at 7 am or who start at 3 pm and get off at 11 pm

Should no Christian take shift work even if they won't work the Lord's day should they not have 1 or 2 hours overlap.

Originally Posted by Tim

Originally Posted by sjonee

I'm quite sure I'm ignorant concerning the population spread theory....but how can we be completely sure no one lived in the Arctic when the Sabbath was placed in the Ten on Mt Sinai? It is my understand that the earth was not tilted before the flood, and thus, each country received that same amount of light at all times. I'm not smart enough to confirm or dispute this theory, but when the flood came a tremendous change of the earth occurred, and it was after the flood that God promised the different seasons via seedtime and harvest etc. When the Sabbath was first established in the garden no one lived anywhere but in the garden and yet the Sabbath applied to places where people would eventually live.

I would assume that if there were people living far away from Sinai (i.e., arctic) at that time, they would not have had the Ten Commandments anyway.

I think Paul would disagree with you. According to Romans 1, the moral law is written upon the hearts of all men. To deny this is, I think, a grave mistake.

I don't think you can make a good biblical argument that the terms "morning" or "evening" have anything to do with the suns position in the first place.

Originally Posted by gene_mingo

I don't think you can make a good biblical argument that the terms "morning" or "evening" have anything to do with the suns position in the first place.

Then, to what do they refer?

Originally Posted by Whitefield

Originally Posted by gene_mingo

I don't think you can make a good biblical argument that the terms "morning" or "evening" have anything to do with the suns position in the first place.

Then, to what do they refer?

When you start and finish your work for the day.

Originally Posted by gene_mingo

Originally Posted by Whitefield

Originally Posted by gene_mingo

I don't think you can make a good biblical argument that the terms "morning" or "evening" have anything to do with the suns position in the first place.

Then, to what do they refer?

When you start and finish your work for the day.

So, there is no morning and evening on the Sabbath?

Why can't they refer to meals? People sleep and have breakfast, they have a midday meal, they have an evening meal. God designed us to get hungry 5-6 hours after the last meal. ( normal healthy meal that is, not cofffee and cake). Why can't it be based on either evening meal to evening meal, or wake up to wakeup?

God would not give instructions that could not be followed by all people for all time in all places.

So this is why it is not specified a start and end time.

makes sense to me.......

Originally Posted by Whitefield

Originally Posted by gene_mingo

Originally Posted by Whitefield

Then, to what do they refer?

When you start and finish your work for the day.

So, there is no morning and evening on the Sabbath?

Don't know how you got that from what I said. I just said that morning and evening have nothing to do with the position of the sun.

-----Added 4/8/2009 at 10:10:32 EST-----

Originally Posted by lynnie

Why can't they refer to meals? People sleep and have breakfast, they have a midday meal, they have an evening meal. God designed us to get hungry 5-6 hours after the last meal. ( normal healthy meal that is, not cofffee and cake). Why can't it be based on either evening meal to evening meal, or wake up to wakeup?

God would not give instructions that could not be followed by all people for all time in all places.

So this is why it is not specified a start and end time.

makes sense to me.......

I don't see where the bible refers them to meals. Only the start and stop of daily labor.

Originally Posted by gene_mingo

Originally Posted by Whitefield

Originally Posted by gene_mingo

When you start and finish your work for the day.

So, there is no morning and evening on the Sabbath?

Don't know how you got that from what I said. I just said that morning and evening have nothing to do with the position of the sun.

If morning and evening are when we start and finish our work for the day, and work is prohibited on the Sabbath (namely, there is no starting and finishing of work), then it seems to follow that on the Sabbath there would be no morning and evening.

If you think your honoring the Sabbath day, at whatever time, let's just say within a particular 24-hour period on yoru Sunday, then is the Indian Christian in India in sin when you are honoring the sabbath while he finishes his work and goes to sleep?

Your Sunday is his Monday.

I greatly admire the devotion of men in history have given to their Sabbath observance. I haven't seen anything like it in our day. One clearest example of someone I greatly admire in this area is Thomas (Stonewall) Jackson. I have no doubt that that man honored the Sabbath day from a true conviction.

Debates as to times and dates and hours seem absurd to me. I am not convinced yet of a Christian Sabbath day observance. Most of what I seen from those who hold to one are petty arguments like this thread and endless worries about what can and cannot be done.

However, just reading about those like General Jackson and how they truly honored the Lord in their observance has helped keep my mind open to being wrong.

So, how about giving up on these stupid arguments and talking about how you honor the sabbath, how the Lord blesses you in that time, et.

Originally Posted by Whitefield

Originally Posted by gene_mingo

Originally Posted by Whitefield

So, there is no morning and evening on the Sabbath?

Don't know how you got that from what I said. I just said that morning and evening have nothing to do with the position of the sun.

If morning and evening are when we start and finish our work for the day, and work is prohibited on the Sabbath (namely, there is no starting and finishing of work), then it seems to follow that on the Sabbath there would be no morning and evening.

You first need to show where in the bible morning and evening are shown to be tied to the suns position or a certain time of the day. I can prove my ideas with scripture and yet you find it confusing.

Originally Posted by Reformed Baptist

So, how about giving up on these stupid arguments and talking about how you honored the sabbath, how the Lord blesses you in that time, et.

Originally Posted by Whitefield

Originally Posted by Reformed Baptist

So, how about giving up on these stupid arguments and talking about how you honored the sabbath, how the Lord blesses you in that time, et.

It doesn't make sense to you that others may be more impressed with holy living, devotion, stories of prayers and God's blessings regarding a Sabbath observance than endless debates as to times and seaons?

Originally Posted by gene_mingo

Originally Posted by Whitefield

Originally Posted by gene_mingo

Don't know how you got that from what I said. I just said that morning and evening have nothing to do with the position of the sun.

If morning and evening are when we start and finish our work for the day, and work is prohibited on the Sabbath (namely, there is no starting and finishing of work), then it seems to follow that on the Sabbath there would be no morning and evening.

You first need to show where in the bible morning and evening are shown to be tied to the suns position or a certain time of the day. I can prove my ideas with scripture and yet you find it confusing.

I did not assert to what morning and evening are tied, so there is no assertion on my part which I must prove. You asserted morning and evening were not tied to the position of the sun. I asked to what then are they tied. You asserted they are tied to the beginning and ending of a day's work. And I asked how one then reckons morning and evening on a day when work is not begun or ended.

-----Added 4/8/2009 at 10:31:31 EST-----

Originally Posted by Reformed Baptist

Originally Posted by Whitefield

Originally Posted by Reformed Baptist

So, how about giving up on these stupid arguments and talking about how you honored the sabbath, how the Lord blesses you in that time, et.

It doesn't make sense to you that others may be more impressed with holy living, devotion, stories of prayers and God's blessings regarding a Sabbath observance than endless debates as to times and seaons?

Well, yes, maybe, but that isn't the topic of this thread.

Originally Posted by Whitefield

Originally Posted by gene_mingo

Originally Posted by Whitefield

If morning and evening are when we start and finish our work for the day, and work is prohibited on the Sabbath (namely, there is no starting and finishing of work), then it seems to follow that on the Sabbath there would be no morning and evening.

You first need to show where in the bible morning and evening are shown to be tied to the suns position or a certain time of the day. I can prove my ideas with scripture and yet you find it confusing.

I did not assert to what morning and evening are tied, so there is no assertion on my part which I must prove. You asserted morning and evening were not tied to the position of the sun. I asked to what then are they tied. You asserted they are tied to the beginning and ending of a day's work. And I asked how one then reckons morning and evening on a day when work is not begun or ended.

-----Added 4/8/2009 at 10:31:31 EST-----

Originally Posted by Reformed Baptist

Originally Posted by Whitefield

It doesn't make sense to you that others may be more impressed with holy living, devotion, stories of prayers and God's blessings regarding a Sabbath observance than endless debates as to times and seaons?

Well, yes, maybe, but that isn't the topic of this thread.

Isn't it an opinion on the topic of the thread?

Originally Posted by Reformed Baptist

Originally Posted by Whitefield

Originally Posted by gene_mingo

You first need to show where in the bible morning and evening are shown to be tied to the suns position or a certain time of the day. I can prove my ideas with scripture and yet you find it confusing.

I did not assert to what morning and evening are tied, so there is no assertion on my part which I must prove. You asserted morning and evening were not tied to the position of the sun. I asked to what then are they tied. You asserted they are tied to the beginning and ending of a day's work. And I asked how one then reckons morning and evening on a day when work is not begun or ended.

-----Added 4/8/2009 at 10:31:31 EST-----

Originally Posted by Reformed Baptist

It doesn't make sense to you that others may be more impressed with holy living, devotion, stories of prayers and God's blessings regarding a Sabbath observance than endless debates as to times and seaons?

Well, yes, maybe, but that isn't the topic of this thread.

Isn't it an opinion on the topic of the thread?

Yes, it is. A denial of the importance of a topic is an opinion on the topic.

Originally Posted by Whitefield

Originally Posted by Reformed Baptist

Originally Posted by Whitefield

I did not assert to what morning and evening are tied, so there is no assertion on my part which I must prove. You asserted morning and evening were not tied to the position of the sun. I asked to what then are they tied. You asserted they are tied to the beginning and ending of a day's work. And I asked how one then reckons morning and evening on a day when work is not begun or ended.

-----Added 4/8/2009 at 10:31:31 EST-----



Well, yes, maybe, but that isn't the topic of this thread.

Isn't it an opinion on the topic of the thread?

Yes, it is. A denial of the importance of a topic is an opinion on the topic.

So then it is on topic.

Originally Posted by Reformed Baptist

Originally Posted by Whitefield

Originally Posted by Reformed Baptist

Isn't it an opinion on the topic of the thread?

Yes, it is. A denial of the importance of a topic is an opinion on the topic.

So then it is on topic.

Is a discussion of the on-topicness of a diversion on topic?

Originally Posted by Reformed Baptist

Originally Posted by Whitefield

Originally Posted by Reformed Baptist

Isn't it an opinion on the topic of the thread?

Yes, it is. A denial of the importance of a topic is an opinion on the topic.

So then it is on topic.

Agreed. But to call a topic stupid does not add constructively to the topic. Why would one continue to post to a topic one thought was stupid and useless?

Originally Posted by Whitefield

Originally Posted by Reformed Baptist

Originally Posted by Whitefield

Yes, it is. A denial of the importance of a topic is an opinion on the topic.

So then it is on topic.

Agreed. But to call a topic stupid does not add constructively to the topic. Why would one continue to post to a topic one thought was stupid and useless?

Did I just make a post and say "This topic is stupid." no. Sounds like your more offended by the criticism. I made my suggestion because I think the topic itself is off track, and offered a suggestion as to how Sabbath Observance could be better discussed.

Are you just trying to bully me off the thread? lol

Originally Posted by Reformed Baptist

Did I just make a post and say "This topic is stupid." no.

Almost ....

So, how about giving up on these stupid arguments

The Sabbath is from 9:29 PM to 4:32 AM. This can be easily determined by the application of an ancient Jewish art known as "gematria".

Originally Posted by Skyler

The Sabbath is from 9:29 PM to 4:32 AM. This can be easily determined by the application of an ancient Jewish art known as "gematria".

Oh OK I thoght you were going to say Kabala, but sure Gematria, that makes sense

Was that daylight savings time or standard?

Before the captivity when they changed their calendar or after?

Originally Posted by PeaceMaker

Originally Posted by Skyler

The Sabbath is from 9:29 PM to 4:32 AM. This can be easily determined by the application of an ancient Jewish art known as "gematria".

Oh OK I thoght you were going to say Kabala, but sure Gematria, that makes sense

Was that daylight savings time or standard?

Before the captivity when they changed their calendar or after?

It's God's time. He doesn't do that daylight confusing time nonsense.

And of course, it was before the captivity; the Babylonians didn't introduce anything but confusion.

Originally Posted by Reformed Baptist

So, how about giving up on these stupid arguments and talking about how you honor the sabbath, how the Lord blesses you in that time, et.

Though I am one the one posting saying what time we keep it is a matter of conscience and not specifically prescribed, I do think you need to apologize to the people posting here who are not just arguing for the sake of arguing but are seriously seeking to know if there is a way to determine how best to obey the 4th commandment.

If they conclude there isn't then maybe they will be satisfied and drop the discussion. Would to GOd more people would discuss these matters and have concern for things spiritual and careful obedience.

We grow and learn this way and though posting on a bard is not as easy flowing as audible conversation it is helpful to learn from others and sharpen each others conscience. So this wrestling is usually good.

As for the keeping of the 4th command since it comes to many after they have been taught falsely it may take some study and struggle to come to grips with it.
I remember one man explaining it to a young man who said well then why are we bringing wood in from your wood pile on the sabbath if we aren't to work, the scriptures says one man was killed for picking up sticks. The man was not wise enough to say he was not out gathering the wood to bring home that day or to sell it,, but he had prepared and brought it home he was just moving the amount to be used from it storage place beside the house to to the fireplace so his kitchen or living room was not filled with a years supply of wood.
So he said to the young man. I don't know exactly and perfectly how I should sanctify the Lord's day. But this I know. I used to work on this day and do sporting events etc. and god has impressed on me that it is a day to worship Him and rest from my own work as a figure of heaven I will be going to with Him and so far as He has convicted of these things I do them.
One day maybe I won't bring wood in the house.
I just know I am to keep all 10 commandments and none of the moral law has been done away. I now love it and delight in a day with and for God. It is a keeping of it from my heart and not just clear rules of dos and don'ts. The young man became a believer of the Lord's day from then on. Similar to your experience of S JAckson

I did not assert to what morning and evening are tied, so there is no assertion on my part which I must prove. You asserted morning and evening were not tied to the position of the sun. I asked to what then are they tied. You asserted they are tied to the beginning and ending of a day's work. And I asked how one then reckons morning and evening on a day when work is not begun or ended.

And I think you are adding undue confusion to the discussion. I mean really, would it be hard for some one to use the time in which they typically start and finish work?

The bible prescribes no set time for morning and evening. It only references them to the beginning and finishing of work. I don't find this to be confusing.

Not to throw a grenade into the room, only to shut the door behind me, but astronauts have no sun-up/sun-down. Are Christian astronauts violating the Sabbath if they work when the sun is up on their part of Earth but not shining in their vehicle? Do we even know with certainty which day is the original "Sunday"? No, we do not. As a culture we pick a day and agree to call it "Sunday". If we are to worry that we have gone one minute past the sundown we should worry even more that we don't even share the same calendar with Christ when he was here on Earth. Just saying...

Originally Posted by PeaceMaker

Originally Posted by Tim

I would assume that if there were people living far away from Sinai (i.e., arctic) at that time, they would not have had the Ten Commandments anyway.

What?

What about today. Were they only to obey the 4th commandment back when it was given?

I agree that my comment was not clear enough. All I was saying is that since the law was first given to people in mid-latitudes there might not have been a problem is keeping a sundown to sundown observance, as I think was more probably the case in the OT time. I agree that the moral law is written on the hearts of men, but there was indeed a benefit to Israel that they had the Law given to them that they might obey Jehovah.

No, So God would not give instructions that could not be followed by all people for all time in all places.

Actually, isn't it true that there was a prescribed manner of tabernacle and temple worship in the old times? Anyone living outside those areas would not have been able to make those sacrifices with the Levitical priests, and so on - because they didn't have a tabernacle or temple!

But now, worship is no longer tied to a place. In the same way, I am thinking that perhaps the old sabbath observance was sundown to sundown (thus needing a mid-latitude geography as in the near East) whereas the current practice may be midnight-to-midnight in keeping with the universal extant of Christendom, so as to include arctic residents.