Yes; when the apostle says "Christ is the end of the law" he clearly states that it is "for righteousness."

__________________
Yours sincerely,


"Illum oportet crescere me autem minui."

Jacob, a "harem"??? Give me a break. With all of that running around Europe/Germany in those outfits you described recently, where are you gonna get time to marry one wife, let alone a harem.

__________________
Dennis E. McFadden, Ex Mainline Baptist (in Remission)
Atherton Baptist Homes, CEO
First Baptist Church of Alhambra, Member, Transformation Ministries (CA)

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With regard to Daily living (Psalm 1, Proverbs 1-4), I mean the moral law, which is summarized in the Ten Commandments, and the general equity of its judicial applications.



I just thought of something: Maybe the book of Proverbs is an application of the law of God.

__________________
J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

I grant your point.

__________________
J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

Pursuant to the thread -

And so:

I would say a harem is evidence that the flesh has not been crucified...and you are not being led by the Spirit.

__________________
-JD
1Thess5:21
Ordained Deacon, PCA
Serving in the SBC
MS

Team blog: ChristianSkepticism.org | Personal:...a Longmire rambles | facebook

The harem reference was a joke to illustrate a point. In the above Paul is presuming continuity with the moral law at the very least (ala 1 Timothy 1:8ff). This is plain westminster theology

__________________
J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

I've read a lot of Pastor Fortner's works here's a few things I found doing a quick search.

Pastor Fortner's hymns:

I LOVE YOUR LAW, MY GOD
Don Fortner

(Tune: Stand Up and Bless The Lord #33 SM)

I love Your law, my God,
Delight in its commands:
Perfect are all its principles,
And just are its demands.

But I am all unclean,
No righteousness have I;
Should I by Your law try to live,
I must forever die!

Yet, Christ, Your holy Son,
Fulfilled the law for me!
He lived, and died, and paid my debt –
In Him I now am free!

Christ is my Righteousness,
And my Redemption too:
By faith in Him alone, my God,
Boldly, I come to you.

I LOVE YOUR HOLY LAW, MY GOD

Don Fortner

Love Your holy law, my God,
I love it in my heart;
And if I could I would obey
In spirit every part.

Your law is holy, just and good,
All perfect and all true;
But I'm a weak and sinful wretch:
Its works I cannot do.

And, yet, Your law condemns me not,
It's all been satisfied,
By Your own Son, my Substitute,
When He for sinners died!

In life Christ brought in righteousness,
Such as the law required:
In death He bore Your dreadful wrath,
And there the curse expired!

And now Your law's become my friend,
Demanding my release:
It points to Jesus slain for me,
And gives me perfect peace.

By faith in Jesus Christ I'm free,
From condemnation free!
For all Your law requires of me,
Christ Jesus is my plea!

IN CHRIST THE LAW IS MAGNIFIED
Don Fortner
(Tune: Only Trust Him #252 CM)

The Jews of old their sabbaths kept,
A picture of that rest
Which sinners find in Christ, who said,
"Come unto me and rest."

Refrain:

Look to Jesus, He has finished
All the law required:
Glory, glory, Christ has finished
All the law required!

Under the law they sacrificed
The blood of helpless lambs,
Pictures of Christ, the Lamb of God,
Who took away our sins.

By tithes those ancient ones confessed
That they belonged to God:
By willing faith we consecrate
Our all to Christ our God.

Helpless, we never could obey
The law's righteous commands;
But Jesus lived and died for us,
And met its just demands.

God's holy law points us to Christ,
Who fulfilled its designs:
In Christ the law is magnified
In Him its glory shines!

Quotes from his site:

From his work titled, "Basic Bible Doctrine"

"Until we are one with Christ, we are out of harmony with God’s creation. If you are yet without Christ, come to him now. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Come, enter into that blessed sabbath of faith portrayed in Genesis 2:1-3."Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." Cease from your works as God did from his, and trust, rest in the Lord Jesus Christ as your only, all-sufficient Savior. If you do, you are a new creation in Christ!"

From "Grace for Today" when writing about Christmas:

"...as believers, we must not be brought into a bondage observance of any day. We must not honor one day above another. We do not observe holy days and sabbath days of any kind."

From "Discovering Christ in All the Scriptures"

"That is where you and I began this thing we call salvation. The Lord Jesus Christ, our great Joshua, brought us into the blessed possession of grace, salvation, and eternal life, and gave us rest. He called us to rest in him and graciously forced us to do so (Matt. 11:28-30; Ps. 65:4). There is no rest like the rest of faith in Christ. This is our sabbath. We rest in Christ, trusting his righteousness as our only righteousness before God, his redemption as our only atonement for sin, and his rule (his universal dominion and disposition of all things in providence for our souls’ good) as our great King."

"And we must never allow anyone to bring us back under the “rudiments of the world,” Mosaic ordinances. The rites and ceremonies of the Mosaic law: Circumcision, abstaining from certain meats, sabbath observance, and all such things were altogether typical. Christ has fulfilled them all. Any observance of such things today is sinful. All true worship is spiritual. God is not worshipped where dead men and women observe dead, carnal ordinances. There is absolutely no need for men to observe these things, seek any other foundation of hope before God, or look anywhere else for acceptance with God. Christ is all we need."

"Christ is better than the sabbath (4:9-11). The Old Testament sabbath was, like everything else in Old Testament worship, typical of Christ who is our true Sabbath. The sabbath rest of faith in Christ was typified by God ceasing from his works of creation and resting on the seventh day, and in Israel resting in Canaan. As the Lord God ceased from his works, sinners enter into rest when they cease from their works and trust Christ alone for acceptance with God. Just as surely as Christ our Substitute has entered into his rest in glory, there is a vast multitude of sinners in this world who must also enter into his rest. They must enter in because God ordained it, and because Christ has obtained it for us."

"Life After Pentecost"

"It is the natural tendency of proud human flesh to say, "Grace is not enough. God requires something from man." While declaring that salvation is by grace, they add law keeping, sabbath observance, adherence to religious traditions and customs to the grace of God. In doing so, they destroy the doctrine of grace. Anything done by man, when added to Christ, or added to the grace of God, for justification, sanctification, or any other aspect of salvation, makes the blood of Christ and the grace of God to be of noneffect (Gal. 5:1-4).Grace and works will not mix (Rom. 11:6: Eph. 2:8-10). Grace producers good works. But grace is not caused by, dependent upon, or even influenced by our works!"

Peace,

j

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J. M. - Baptist - Ontario, Canada - Feileadh Mor

If Paul says 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. how can this Law be my rule of life when I am not under it and led by the Spirit? WHat does it mean to be not under it other than to not be led by it? Is Paul saying we are led by both the Spirit and Law?

Jacob:

Again I need something more than:With regard to Daily living (Psalm 1, Proverbs 1-4), I mean the moral law, which is summarized in the Ten Commandments, and the general equity of its judicial applications.


How does this become binding and the rule of life. They are vague words that can be shaped into many different understandings. Does it mean that without the ML, one would act as a heathen continuously? The Law was given to Israel, and yet they forsoke God continuously, so what is it supposed to do for the NC believers daily walk? I struggle with this question..

__________________
N. Robert; Trinity Reformed Church RCA, Holland MI

Once in a while you can get shown the light, in the strangest of places if you look at it right."

It's not that he completely misses the mark but he does deny the so-called "third use" even as he comes up with four uses above.

He seems to grasp that the Law, in fact, condemns men and, in the recognition of our curse under it, drives us to the Cross. But then he fails to see the transition in Galatians 5 where the believer is almost said to die on one side of the Law (the curse) in Christ but rise in newness of life on the other side of the Law where the true end is found only after a man is set free from the bondage of sin and death.

Why? Because the Law is like a multi-faceted description of the character of God. This is why it can both be a source of fear and trembling, fire and smoke for the Israelites who were in the flesh but a source of delight for David. Both are seeing in the Law a Holy God but the flesh sees one thing and the man of the spirit sees another.

This is, in fact, his defect on the Sabbath as well where Hebrews 4 repudiates his very thinking that the Sabbath Day was nothing more than some sort of limited physical thing. Joshua and then David were pointing to enjoyment of entering the Sabbath that God entered in Creation where He ceased from His work. The reason we perpetually enjoy that one day in seven is to anticipate a final rest from sin and death and perfect communion. It's crass and dispensational to think that Joshua and other saints were simply delighting in the Sabbath for its ceremonial practice.

Look, I'm glad that guy's not preaching Law. At least he's not telling people to trust in themselves but he also lacks the mature expression of the purpose of the Law and, in fact, the pedagogical use and delight of the Law that a believer is encouraged to seek after they are established that Christ is the end of righteousness for the Law. In seeking to guard against a legalistic falling back into the Law he over-corrects to the point where the listener cannot appreciate Paul's use in Galatians 5 and 6.

__________________
Rich
Northern VA
OPC

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I've heard it said too, that if you ain't accused of being an antinomian, you ain't preachin the gospel properly. And I thought that was the purpose of preaching, to get the gospel out. Because you are to convict people of their sins, to show that they can't do it, and then give them the sweet message of salvation to be found in our Savior.

And anybody that thinks they can keep the law for even one second is deluding themselves. Real sanctification is not that we think we are doing better, but the realization that we need Jesus more.

__________________
Timothy Johnson
First United Presbyterian of Moline
PCUSA (Yea, I know)
Theology/Philosophy Sunday School Teacher
Davenport, IA

Sorry, wasn't trying to bash you, just introducing a point.

To recapitulate:

It is my understanding that those without the Spirit are still under the law.

That is - it acts as accuser and additional justification for final judgment as well as acting as a temporal restraint.

Those led by the Spirit still delight in the law of the Lord (at a minimum the moral law) and align with it in many ways as they are convicted through the sanctification process - inasmuch as it aligns them with with Christ's commandments, but they will not be judged by it.

However, we bring God glory by living Spirit led lives that will never dishonor or contradict the moral law.

So the antinomian, in effect, is against the Word and the Spirit.

__________________
-JD
1Thess5:21
Ordained Deacon, PCA
Serving in the SBC
MS

Team blog: ChristianSkepticism.org | Personal:...a Longmire rambles | facebook

We obviously need to be careful to use that as the gauge for whether or not one is really preaching the Gospel. It depends upon who is accusing of antinomianism. After all, if the maxim is true then any time someone is accuse of antinomianism then, by definition, they must be preaching the true Gospel. This is obviously not the case or, by definition, Joel Osteen preaches the Gospel properly as the charge of antinomianism is appropriate for him.

It is certainly true that Paul always anticipates the objection that the Gospel is a license for sin against the charge of the Church of Moral Improvement but his tenor is different than the above. His tenor is that we are now free to obey and not free from God's character. Surely we are saved by Christ's righteousness but that then forms the basis and the motivation to pursue God and His kingdom - not for acceptance but because of adoption. To imply that the Law is then cut out from our thinking is to imply that everything that we can learn about our Father by looking at His Law is now immaterial.

Blessings!

Rich

__________________
Rich
Northern VA
OPC

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The important thing to bear in mind is that the word "law" has multiple meanings. R. L. Dabney notes:

The word "Law," (hr;/T, nomo ) is employed in the Scripture with a certain latitude of meaning, but always carrying the force of meaning contained in the general idea of a regulative principle. First, it sometimes expresses the whole of Revelation, as in Ps. 1:2. Second, the whole Old Testament, as in John 10:34. Third, frequently the Pentateuch, as in Luke 24:44. Fourth, the preceptive moral law (Prov. 28:4; Rom. 2:14. Fifth, the ceremonial code, as in Heb. 10:1. Sixth, the decalogue, Matt. 22:36-40. Seventh, a ruling power in our nature, as in Rom. 7:23. Eighth, the covenant of works, Rom. 6:14.

We also need to recall that a key blessing of the new covenant is "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people" (Jeremiah 31:33). I would go with William Romaine when he says:

"That thy walk with God in the way of obedience is not to fulfil the law, as a covenant of works. Thou art not required to do this. Thou canst not do it. Immanuel, thy divine surety, took it upon Himself. Because it was impossible for thee, a fallen creature, to keep the law, so as to be justified by it, He therefore came in person to fulfil it. He honoured its precepts by His infinite obedience. He magnified its penalties by His inestimable sacrifice. And this is thy justifying righteousness. Through faith in the life and death of the God-man thou art not only freed from guilt and condemnation, from curse and hell, but art also entitled to life and glory. The law is now on thy side, and is become thy friend. It acquits thee. It justifies thee. It will give thee the reward promised to obedience. The law in the hand of thy Saviour has nothing but blessings to bestow upon thee. Thou art to receive it at His mouth and to obey Him: but not from any legal hopes of heaven, or from any slavish fears of hell: for then thou wouldst come under the covenant of works again. Whereas thou art not under the law, but under grace, mind thy privilege and pray for grace to live up to it. Thou art not under the law, bound to keep it perfectly in thine own person, or in case of failing, condemned by it, and under its fearful curse. Thou art under grace, a state of grace through faith in the obedience and sufferings of thy blessed surety, and under the power of grace constrained and motivated by the love of Christ." (The Walk of Faith)

__________________
Richard
CofE
UK

There is no contradiction in God, hence the blessing which the law offers is excluded by our depravity, so that only the curse remains. But unto the elect, whom the penalty of the law is fulfilled in Christ, only the blessing remains. Yet, we are left in these mortal bodies which contradict us and Paul says in Romans 7:22-25

"For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."



The antithesis between law and gospel is the sin in our flesh, but unto the new creature in Christ there is no contradiction. Calvin saw the law as it presented an impossible challenge to the non-elect; as Jesus Christ alone is able to keep the law, but the "wickedness and condemnation of us all are sealed by the testimony of the law. Yet this is not done to cause us to fall down in despair, or completely discouraged, to rush headlong over the brink - provided we duly profit by the testimony of the law. (Institutes 2.7.8) Hence, unto the new man, the accusatory character of the law should not depress but illumine the mind unto the true Holiness and character of God and be the infallible weapon of God's word in our perpetual fight against the world, the flesh and the devil.

__________________
Thomas Weddle
Member, Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church
Evansville, Indiana

Thomas I am aware of all this writing regarding flesh, Law, Christ fulfilling it etc etc etc. I know it is 'said' we are not under the curse.

All I am asking is what does it mean to be the rule of life and how does it do that? All the rhetoric from calvin et al does not specifically answer my question. DO I need Law to remind me of when I sin? Is that was it meant by rule of life?

Let me try this way of putting it then: Tell me what the apostle means in the first six verses of Romans 7, where he says that the believer is dead to the law, and