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Chris Rhoades -33
Good Shepherd Presbyterian Church (PCA) Nashville, TN-Under Care

Vera theologia non theoretica, sed practica est; Finis siquidem eius agere est hoc est vitam vivere deiformem. - Martin Bucer
""True theology is not theoretical, but practical. The end of it is living, that is to live a godly life."

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Jeff Bartel
Mechanical Engineer
Member - Trinity Reformed Church - RPCNA

"To believe in the power of man in the work of regeneration is the great heresy of Rome, and from that error has come the ruin of the Church. Conversion proceeds from the grace of God alone, and the system which ascribes it partly to man and partly to God is worse than Pelagianism" (The Reformation in England (London, 1962), Vol. 1, p. 98)

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Um, people...This isn't a joke. This is exactly how it ought to be. This is the model of a free and just social order. A thousand times Amen!

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

Well...maybe not the "drunks" part...

ahhhh that looks like all my gunshow buddies. You have no idea how much. In fact my kids say I am living Hank Hill's life from the cartoon King of the Hill.

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Richard H. King
Providence PCA
Lubbock, Texas
You know what my main problem is? I start things but rarely finish anyth...

I just had a whole bunch of Dale Gribbel quotes come to mind!

With some glasses, a cigarette and a SKOAL hat..... you might be a dead ringer

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K. Joel Gilliard
Theologically Correct dot Com
http://www.theologicallycorrect.com
Sunday School Teacher (Elementary 2), Grace Communion Church (EFCA) http://www.gchurch.org
The Blog: THINK! - Wrestlin' With Wordz -N- Ideaz

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Scott Bushey
Husband to Tina, father to Nicole, Danielle and Zoe
Member First Presbyterian Church of Margate PCA

Are you guys serious?

Those of you who've read my posts know that I can be pretty militant and that there is a big part of me that likes the tough guy mentality of shooting looters.

However... How can it possibly be conceived of as just to kill someone for taking a possession? Thievery does not warrant capital punishment.

This isn't a "model of a free and just social order." On the contrary, it is nothing other than a model of vigilanteism, which is itself lawlessness.

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Ben
Sanford, NC
TE Ohio Valley Presbytery, PCA

Ben might be right.

It is lawful to shoot an intruder that is threatening you or your family with deadly force in the middle of the night, but a thief carrying off your tv is a tresspasser. It is ok to threaten him to put down the property and leave, but unless he pulls out a gun or leaps at you with a knife, I really do not think it would justify blowing him away.

What do you think Jacob and Scott?

Keep in mind, I love firearms. Everyone should have plenty to pass out to their neighbors when the time comes.

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Misery induces despair, pride induces presumption. The Incarnation shows man the
greatness of his misery by the greatness of the remedy which he required.
~ Pascal, Pensees 526

If someone comes into your neighborhood to with the intent of destroying/stealing your private property/family, is it vigilantism to use whatever force necessary to repel them?

Apply the same ethical behaviours that were seen inside the Superdome and put them on your street (piles of dead babies in restrooms, young teenage girls raped to death, lawlessness and anarchy, british men being forced to have their backs in a ciricle to protect the women); now tell me: is self-defense wrong?

Depends on the context. If I saw a thief I would presume the worst. How do I know that he "only wants to help himself to what belongs to me?" For all I know, he could then be after my woman and kids.

You are operating under the assumption that all they want to do is pick up a few loaves of bread otherwise they will starve. I am operating under the biblical assumption that they have come to terrorize and harm my people/property and seek the destruction of a godly and stable social order.

Jacob, by your words I trust your heart is noble. But in any given situation you an the Lord must make that call. Like I said, I would tell them to leave with the buisiness end of my escopetas squared at their chest.

I am not saying, hey buddy, lets sit down on my couch and talk about why you are stealing that dvd player ok ?

But at the same time, unless they are threatening you with deadly force, you gotta make a judgement call, and there are many factors involved, like does he have a friend outside waiting with weapons ? Are your wife and kids safe ? (In my house he has more of a chance if I find him than if my wife or kids do)

Actually in Texas you have the right to use deadly force to protect you life as well as your property.

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~Wayne Wylie~
Member, Mid Cities Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Ruling Elder - Inactive
http://www.mcopc.org
Bedford, TX

Job 28:28 - And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

I have thought about all that. You are closer to my position on this one. I am not a trigger-happy kill-joy. I would rather not kill and pray I never do. Both of us are importing other scenarios into this one. I have in mind the sicknening events that happened in the Superdome. I do not have in mind a 15 year old wanting to permanently borrow my stereo. As a theonomist, I maintain that the punishment must fit the crime (including the personal level). At the same time, when I see dangerous characters who are probably armed and moving in packs, I will take a safe guess that they are after more than my stereo or my rims and act accordingly (ie, saw off the shotgun).

Listen: I am not saying
Kill first, assume you were right, and move on with no remorse.

Ditto to Wayne!

Brothers,

Scripture speaks clearly on this subject.

Exodus 22:2-3 - "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed; but if it happens after sunrise, he is guilty of bloodshed."

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Seth Stark
Member, Communion Presbyterian Church (ARP), Irvine, CA
Biola University, Graduate Student, M.A. - Science and Religion
Seth's Blog

Bahnsen used that in his debate with Atwood on Gun Control.

Let's flesh this statement out a little:

What if it is after sunrise and his actions are clearly beyond those of thievery (threatening to rape wife, kill kids, etc)? Is lethal force warranted?

What if you saw him doing that to your neighbors in daylight? Or dusk? or Dawn?

Thanks for the reference, Seth.

An unnamed and unfortunate as of late colleague of mine brought this reference to light:


"I do not recognize the authority of a court that hangs the gold-fringed
flag. A flag with gilded edges is the flag of an admirality court. An
admirality court signifies a naval court-martial. I cannot be
court-martialled twice. That is all."
-Dale Gribbel

Judicial law is expired. That was just for God's chosen nation.

Anyone care to take a crack at the general equity of that one?

Yeah: If a thief breaks into your house at night, you have the right to use lethal force to defend yourself and your property. If it is day light, you don't have the right to use lethal force if he is only stealing.

"be bo bum, be by be, be by bickey bi, bickey by bo......."

:P

brought to you by DaleTek

[Edited on 10-6-05 by pastorway]

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Pastor Phillip M. Way
[url=http://www.timeintheword.org][color=blue] Maranatha Community Church of Central Texas[/color][/url]
A Reformed Baptist Congregation and Member Church of the
Fellowship of Independent Reformed Evangelicals [url=http://www.firefellowship.org][color=red](FIRE)[/color][/url]

Blogging at: [url=http://pastorway.blogspot.com/][color=blue][i]pastorway[/i][/color][/url]
Sermons Online at: [url=http://www.sermonaudio.com/timeintheword][color=blue]TIME in the Word Ministries[/color][/url]

When all souls are saved and all mourners comforted we may venture to discuss recondite theories, but not while graveyards are filling with those who know not God. -- CH Spurgeon

[b]The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
Luke 18:27[/b]

Antinomian rubbish.


What do you presume we use for civil governance then ? ?


Matthew 5:17-20 (New International Version)

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Yep.

Shoot his hands off or shoot him in the knees.

Therefore, you're not killing him, but you ARE disabling him for trespassing.