What is "holiness"? Is it what you watch, wear, eat, drink? What if you get that all correct and see others not doing it, how do you feel about them? Mightn't that be a sin? There but for the grace of God go all of us!

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Meg
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Coming in to the discussion late...

For myself I error on the side of caution. As a Christian there are many things that I can do, I always stop and ask myself whether I should do them. I avoid many movies because of their content be it cursing, sexuality, or excessive violence simply because I cannot stomach them and will probably walk out. Garbage in, garbage out as they say.

Often I find other things that are more profitable that I could be doing with my time. I do watch movies, but I try to be careful what I allow myself to see. I try to act in such a way as to keep a clean conscience before the Lord and not engage in viewing those things He deems abominable.

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David Belanger
Member, APC Vancouver
Student Minister, Associated Presbyterian Churches
Student, Haddington House Divinity School
Port Coquitlam, BC

We are talking past each other here so this is my final summary -

It is not enough to be discerning while willingly exposing ourselves to things God hates. When you pay your money and sit down to watch a movie in order to be entertained, it is not enough to watch with discernment. We must check our motives for watching that particular movie in the first place. There is nothing wrong with relaxing and taking our minds off things and being amused. But if we chose to flood our minds with glorified sin and minimized holiness then we have made a bad choice.

Some people cannot watch movies with sexual situations or violence. It brings up images in their mind or even plants new ones there that should not be there. Repeated exposure to violence deadens us to the horrific nature of violence. Repeated exposure to sexual sin takes the edge off the true nature of this kind of sin. Watch Saving Private Ryan a few times and see if you are as shocked during the D-Day sequence as you were the first time you saw it. If you find yourself watching to indulge the flesh instead of to further crucify it, then maybe this example is the whole point - why do we do what we do to be entertained? Is it to fulfill the lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, or pride of life? Or is it to glorify God?

This is a serious enough issue that we need to quit saying that a call for holiness and abstinence concerning movies is overreacting and we need desperately to drop the sarcastic comments and ad homs. There is nothing wrong with not owning a tv or not going to the movies.

If you can watch the movie and at the same time be holy and grow in holiness then go for it. If there is any doubt in your mind whatsoever, listen to the Spirit and your own conscience and flee. If you find movies that are good, pure, helpful, praiseworthy, then watch them. If not, stay away and do something more constructive with your time and money.

Don't think it is enough to be discerning. The Bible says there are categories of things that we are to avoid, flee, refrain from, and reject. You don't avoid something by examining it closely with discernment. You leave your coat in her hand and run the other way. Indeed, if we were truly discerning we would flee the trap in the first place rather than examining the trap to see where it might snare us.

That is all I am saying.
Phillip


[Edited on 1-12-05 by pastorway]

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Pastor Phillip M. Way
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When all souls are saved and all mourners comforted we may venture to discuss recondite theories, but not while graveyards are filling with those who know not God. -- CH Spurgeon

[b]The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
Luke 18:27[/b]

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, and I actually do not own a TV or watch many movies. (I also saw The Incredibles,though) The problem is; nobody reads a novel, plays football or watches a movie to crucify the flesh - not even a G rated one. That's not what we're doing at movies or coffee-shops etc.
I am really not trying to be sarcastic, my point is; if we ask ourselves if every entertainment decision is to crucify the flesh, we'll never do any of it, we'll go to work, clean house, eat stuff that we hope doesn't taste too good, read the Bible & theology books, pray & sleep. I've tried to do that because I really feel guilty when I do something just for fun, and my brain crashes after a while. I have to read a novel or something. It doesn't have to be by Marquis de Sade, though!

If a person can't watch movies without sinning (some people can't be on the computer without sinning!) he/she shouldn't do it or let us pressure him/her into it. St. Paul says in Romans not to do this to each other.

Don't do anything you don't think you should do, but don't make a work that God must be pleased with out of it, God is pleased with us for Christ's sake, not for anything we do. I know, we all know this.

One last final note

just because we enjoy something does not mean it is sinful or that we cannot be crucifying the flesh while having fun!

What is the motive? What are we exposing ourselves to? What are we thinking on? Training our flesh - beating our body into submission - crucifying self - these do not mean that we cannot enjoy things.

The chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever. This is not a joyless, hurtful, bitter exeperience! Whatever you do, do it to the glory of God (1 Cor 10:31).

Now I am really finished. Really. I mean it.
Phillip

[Edited on 1-12-05 by pastorway]

Now THAT bugs me! It ain't funny if he's burning in Hell, it could as easily be me!

That is true, we don't know for sure. We don't know *for sure* that Nero, Hitler, or Pol Pot are either.

But I'm not going to lose a minute's sleep tonight over Mr. Russell.

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Fredrick T. Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
Christ Church Blog

"The heart is the main thing in true religion...It is the hinge and turning-point in the condition of man's soul. If the heart is alive to God and quickened by the Spirit, the man is a living Christian. If the heart is dead and has not the Spirit, the man is dead before God." (J.C. Ryle)

I meant funny as in "odd" not in laughable. The title of the web page was "Betrand Russell, the Famous Years." Oh, to be famous for blaspheming the living God. What a legacy.

Adam,

thanks for the response. Not wanting to beat a dead horse, but how do you define 'strong bond'? Going out for a meal togeater? Inviting them over to your place? etc etc

I am not trying to be a nag here, but this is also something i really want to sort out in my own life. I have many relationships with unbelievers formed in the past and i sometimes really don't know what to do about them. My current opinion is that there is no need to cut off these relationships as though these people had suddenly developed the pox, rather we should just lead holy, Christ centred lives without compromise, and we can continue to 'relate' to the extent these people will tolerate us.

Don't get me wrong, i am definitely not trying to be self righteous here, i know fully that but for God's grace i would be no different than they are( and indeed i am not nearly as different enough as is).


oh...any just in conclusion...apologies for this OFF TOPIC POST

[edited to clean up excessive dead horse carcases that were messing up the screen]

[Edited on 1-12-05 by pastorway]

Thanks Pastorway...sorry bout that

[Edited on 12-1-2005 by satz]

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Mark
Independent baptist
Singapore

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That's exactly the way I see it!

However, if you truely live an uncomprimised Christ centered life, from my experience, they will cut you off. Or, as you have said, they will no longer tolerate you.

Pray before every meal, a strong, proud prayer of thanksgiving asking for the Lord to bless the food, you, and your friends. Including when you are in a resteraunt! See how long they will tolerate that.

Refuse to discuss anything that is unacceptable to the Lord and tell them why the subject must change and see if they still want you around.

Tell them how it dissapoints you when they say something crude, rude, or ignorant. Watch the eyes roll with that one.

Now, do all of that with a soft, loving attitude of course! I am not saying you act like some know it all self-righteous jerk! But in love share your life for Christ with them in all areas.

The only time Christ rejecting friends tolerated my company on a regular basis were times that I comprimised my walk. Every time I hold firm to my calling I have been rejected by all who reject Him.

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Adam Leavelle
Westminster OPC
Roaring Spring Pa.

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Sorry,

Theoretical mind games don't interest me. To me, Russell is just another arrogant God-hater. If I want to read pagan authors (and I do) I'll have a couple hundred (or thousand maybe) or so ahead of him.

I know, and I'm not upset or anything, just continuing to play along.

For me (seriously) I think the bigger problem for the teen (for example) is that he is more interested in such things than real life. My experience is that most people use those sorts of conversations to wall you off from the real problems or concerns of their lives. I don't play that game. (I don't play it with Homer either).

On another level, your last comment is right. I've spent a pretty fair amount of time in the past with philosophy, and it holds almost no interest for me now.

Somehow, I don't think our Lord would have talked at all about philosophy or thinking with Wittgenstein; he would have immediately gone after the heart.

That is not to say that Christians who know philosophy aren't important, but I don't see that (sorry) as having a huge pastoral role. There was a reason (and this is not a criticism) that Van Til was never (to my knowledge) a pastor. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Bahnsen never was either.

Bahnsen was in fact "an ordained minister in the Orthodox Presbyterian Church," as stated on the back cover of his Always Ready.

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Christopher Blum
Member of Trinity Presbyterian Church of Northern Kentucky (PCA) in Burlington, KY

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Oops - Paul, you beat me to it!

Chris,

Just so you know, an ordained minister is not necessarily a pastor. There are hundreds of ordained PCA/OPC ministers that are not pastors.

I thought I might be wrong about Bahnsen, that's why I hedged.

Paul -- where was Van Til a pastor? Not a minister, but a pastor. It was my understanding that he was a full time professor of apologetics at WTS for decades. I don't recall ever hearing of his pastoral charge.

One last thing - I didn't say Jesus wouldn't talk to Wittgenstein. I said he would not talk to Wittgenstein about philosophy (after the manner of Wittgenstein).

In that case, distinguishing between an ordained minister who is a pastor and one who is not, what are some of the differences in usual cases? Is it that an ordained minister can be ordained by a church for just one specific task, such as teaching somewhere inside or outside the church, but a pastor always has a greater number of responsibilities inside the congregation?

Yes. Ordained ministers can be seminary profs, teachers in Christian schools, work for publishing houses, administrators in denominational agencies, and so on.

Understood. But you're basing it on silence.

So when he was with the OPC, he was not a pastor, but a professor who preached, yes? Again, this is NOT a criticism - the Church needs men with a variety of gifts. But what you're saying to me is that Van Til was a pastor of a church for a year, and then a seminary professor of apologetics/philosophy who occasionally preached for the rest of his life.

Speaking of Van Til....

It has dawn on my meager memory that my Christian Philosophy professor at Southwestern Seminary talked A LOT about Van Til. My professor's name was L. Rush Bush. I think he might teach at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary now. Most certainly a conservative professor!

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Ivan Schoen, Pastor * Maranatha Baptist Church, Poplar Grove, IL * http://maranatha-sbc.org/

"I want to assist churches and to assist pastors in training pastors. But, after fourteen years of service in this capacity, I am absolutely certain that the finest theological seminary on earth is absolutely incompetent at replicating the actual life of a Gospel congregation. I want to train a generation of pastors who will train pastors, and I want to help them in that task." --- Dr. R. Albert Mohler, President of THE Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Louisville, KY