In a few threads, a few assertions were made about two recent movies:

Pastorway's analysis of Meet the Fockers was :

"sure - a little sin is good for a laugh now and then......

It seems to me that the church in America is entertaining itself to death and will settle for anything to keep us laughing."

and LawrenceU said this of White Noise:

". . whatsoever is lovely, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report;

I don't see how movies like this fit. . . "



I would like to pose this question to both who said these things, and the whole board. How do we begin to classify and identify movies into categories which are acceptable for the Christian and those which are not. What are the criteria for each? How can we know of the content if we have not been exposed to such material already? What peculiar properties make certain movies sinful to watch?

Please, qualify your statements and generalizations regarding appropriate movies.

__________________
Aaron Cowart
member, Covenant PCA
Houston, TX

Student at Southeast Missouri State University (SEMO)
Cape Girardeau, MO

"The hypocrite's religion is divine in name, but human in deed."

-Richard Baxter

IMHO It should have Redeeming Artistic Value - it should be well-made and profoundly moving or profoundly hilarious! It should widen your view of life.

__________________
The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

But that is far too subjective and open to even begin to define what is appropriate. Is there scriptural reasoning that we can use to determine what should be viewed or not?

Pastorway has salty sounding soundbytes, but hasn't proved anything regarding this. What does our present culture's obsession with entertainment have to do with a sinful movie, anyhow?

Questions yet abound...

[Edited on 11-1-2005 by Authorised]

I think we know the answer but are afraid to say it aloud. Afreiad of what, I don't know. Being called "legalistic" maybe? I am as guilty as anyone, so please know that before I continue.

I partake of entertainment with sensulaity. I excuse it because it isn't "nudity" or sex. People in the shows I partake of commit adultry, fornication, lie, cheat, and act rebellious. But I don't see any body parts, and hey the good guys win most of the time so it isn't all bad!

IMO that's just foolishness.

Eph 4:17Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. 18They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. 19They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity. 20But that is not the way you learned Christ!-- 21assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, 22to put off your old self,[c] which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, 23and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, 24and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness.

Eph 5:3But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. 4Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. 5For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7Therefore do not associate with them; 8for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light 9(for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), 10and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord. 11Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. 12For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret. 13But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible, 14for anything that becomes visible is light. Therefore it says,

We are told that it's shameful to even DISCUSS what sinners do in private! We not only discuss it, we watch it.

We need to repent, allow me to be the first one to do so,

__________________
Adam Leavelle
Westminster OPC
Roaring Spring Pa.

http://www.myspace.com/aleavelle
"Speak wisdom to a fool and he'll think you have no sense at all"

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Is it wrong to view art? To read Aeschylus?(Talk about shameful things!), To listen to music that's not Christian?

I'm not interested in lobbing labels at anyone, but there is common grace in this world. Jesus told us to be in this world but not of it. What does that actually look like, a visible separation from everything non-Christian? In my view, this has simply led to the Evangelical Marketing Niche and the Christian Bookstore, which IMO is way more sinful than an Ingmar Bergman film! Here we are, watching BAD afterschool specials, ignoring the fact that they're not in the least profound,( and we're not giving God our best when we produce this tripe) and feeling very righteous. We've added philistinism to our idolatry!

How about some GOOD QUALITY God-honoring art on film that contributes to the conversation we're all having in this life, and makes people have to think deeply about life, and death, and maybe...who knows where it could go?

That sounds great.

Now, where is it?

Ok, sounds good. I am sure there are a few we could discuss. Listing them would be a great resource. Sadly though I doubt there are many to list.

I agree with what you are saying, and I think we too often make excuses, but does it necessarily conclude that because we are not to discuss such sins (and surely Paul doesn't exclude discussing them for teaching purposes--that is, to say that we shouldn't do them--since he does this himself) that we are not to watch them? I agree that it's probably a logical conjecture, but speaking (presumably favorably) about something is not necessarily of less offensiveness than watching it. (BTW, I think you're right... I'm just being contrary.)

It is so hard to draw specific lines, but I do think that if at any point in a comedy we are laughing at sin, we shouldn't watch it. If we are getting sensual pleasure out of sensuality, we shouldn't watch that, either. If we enjoy seeing fornication or adultery, enjoy watching gratuitous and senseless violence... that's definitely wrong. (Though I don't see anything wrong with skipping particular scenes in, say,
Braveheart to get to the good stuff)

To me the main problem is not so much watching the content itself (aside from nudity--that in itself is a problem) but the fact that we enjoy the sinful content. We get a kick of out seeing people do all kinds of sinful deeds we would never do. And if we don't enjoy watching sin, then why are we watching it? If, even with the Redeeming Artistic Value, it is packed with condonement of sin, how could we possibly enjoy it? Shouldn't we so strongly hate those parts of the film that the entire experience is miserable? But I speak of movies that are so blatantly advocating sinful behavior that this completely overshadows any creative value. A "sinful" scene here and there isn't necessarily a sin to watch (once--probably better not to see it again, knowing it's there)... but it would be a sin to enjoy it.

[Edited on 11-1-2005 by Ex Nihilo]

__________________
Evie B.
Cambridge, Massachusetts
Attending Park Street Church, Boston

"Remember not the former things, nor consider the things of old. Behold, I am doing a new thing; now it springs forth, do you not perceive it? I will make a way in the wilderness and rivers in the desert." --Isaiah 43:18-19 (ESV)

My convictions have been changing over the years. I used to go to anything (almost) and believe that if I wasn't aroused, or titilated by the sexual stuff then it was no big deal.

Then I began to be more careful and read reviews, etc.

Thirdly I set a ratings limit. Nothing rated R unless it was screened by and recomended by a fellow Christian who agreed with my standards.

Fianlly I just began being very picky over all but still allowed an ocasional slip up to occur.

Now I just feel ashamed to have anything to do with anything that is full of sin.

I hate to admit this, but sometimes it's a bit of a letdown to discover that we can't enjoy the things we used to anymore... but it is evidence of God's work in our lives, and something to praise him for!

I can relate to you on both points there.

__________________
Chris


A passion to know and reflect Christ by living and demonstrating the truth and richness of the historic Reformed faith

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Christopher Blum
Member of Trinity Presbyterian Church of Northern Kentucky (PCA) in Burlington, KY

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

well, this is the second time today i've done this to chris, but i just have to agree with his post! ( and hence adam's and evie's)


Adam, regarding the ephesians passage you quoted, how do you apply this to real life and real people, esp 5:7 Therefore do not associate with them?

How do you manage your relationships with unbelievers?

__________________
Mark
Independent baptist
Singapore

I have no strong bond with any unbeliever.

But that's not because I shun them as if I am better than them. They just know that I base my life on the word of God (Lord help me) and as such have little to no desire to spend much "quality" time with me. I pray when with them, point out God's word to them anytime I am with them and they openly and arrogantly sin as if it is no big deal, and share my opinions with them in regard to how I feel the word of God sees something they may be discussing.

They know that Christ and His word are the focal point of my life and as such I never "leave Him home". I even have many "Christian" friends who get annoyed with me for "making everything spiritual".

How I try and yeild my life annoys alot of people I am friends with. I've been called more names (legalist, Pharisee, Judge, etc) by the people in my life than I can count. I try and count it all as blessing. Often it is tough but I press on.

Most movies I've seen often show sin that is "illegal" as bad and that you pay consequences for partaking of it. BUT within the same movie, the "good guys" partake of "smaller" sin (not illegal) and it's glorified. In the very least it is seen as "no big deal".

Often adultry is seen as a "mistake" but clearly not sin. It's never repented of. It is often seen as a "mistake" or "weakness" but not sin that requires repentance.

I may have seen this on ocasion, but it's seldom seemed as sin being recompensated. Revenge, retrobution, "pay back" is often the message. But true redemption is pretty rare. Even if you could list 30 movies with such a message that's still pretty rare.

"Scream" is an extreme example of the opposite approach , even some could say it is positive as those involved get injured, look foolish, and ultimately arrested in the end.

A ton of movies even have the "good guy" breaking the rules but that's seen as cool and fun. Those who want to follow the rules are seen as idiots or at the best sticks in the mud. Rebellion is often glorified in movies.

I agree Paul that on the rare ocasions that movies or TV shows are found to be wholesome that can be and even should be enjoyed. My point is that this is a very, very, rare thing.

I and others have posted some comments relevant to this issue on this earlier thread: http://www.puritanboard.com/forum/vi...d.php?tid=8119

__________________
Andrew Myers
Husband of Jessica, Father of Jackson, Katie and Samuel
Member, Presbyterian Reformed Church of Northern Virginia
Warrenton, VA USA
Editor, The Matthew Poole Project

"Let your Morning Thoughts, and your last Evening Thoughts, be what shall become of you to all Eternity." -- Matthew Poole

This area it seems to me is the one area where Reformed believers of today are the furthest from the Puritans!

We have been given liberty in Christ but are commanded not to use that liberty for an opportunity for the flesh but instead we are free so that we might "through love serve one another" (Gal 5:13)!

Further we are commanded to be holy. How holy? As holy as God is holy (1 Peter 1:15-16).

Too often then we think, "I cannot be as holy as God is and since Jesus died for me I can live however I desire and do whatever I want." What is the danger here? "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Shall we sin because we are not under law but grace? Certainly not!" (Romans 6:1, 15)

As for entertainment we must remember a crucial fact - we do not have a NEED to be entertained. Does that mean all entertainment is wrong? No. But when we laugh at sin and are entertianed by the things that God hates we are ceasing to be like Christ and indeed are sinning.

Where do we draw the line? Be like Christ. Be holy. Be pure. Think on these things, "whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy..." (Phil 4:8).

Does this mean no movies at all then? I leave that to your conscience and pray that you will be rightly informed from the Word of God so that you will make God honoring decisions. If in doubt - don't!

Again, we don't NEED movies. They often open the door for the flesh and cause us to stumble. They desensitize us to sin and a low view of sin ultimately leads us to a low view of our Holy God. So if a movie stimulates Christ likeness - indulge! If it stimulates the flesh - flee from it.

Is this a hard line? You bet. Jesus was quite radical in His view of sin - "if your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out." We need to stop tolerating sin and stop excusing sin and stop indulging the flesh.

Entertainment after all is really a counterfeit for joy. It, unlike joy, is not permanent or unshaken by circumstances and events. Where did Paul find joy? In the church, in the Word, fellowshipping with saints, praying, discipling, worshipping God. So we too must seek after glorifying God and finding joy. Imagine the eternal benefit to using the money and time we spend on movies instead for prayer, for fasting, for fellowship, for worship, for Bible reading and memorization, for discipleship, for being HOLY!

It is about Him, not us. He is the focus, not us. Do you see Him, high and lifted up? Does it please Him? Do you seek His face? Or is it only His hand you pursue - looking to God as an heavenly ATM machine set to dispense whatever you want when you want it?

Perhaps it is high time we fast from entertainment that is not God honoring. Perhaps it is time we really chase after being holy. Perhaps it is time we recover a high view of God and surrender our so-called liberty for a higher goal, being conformed into the image of Christ. Perhaps it is time that we take God at His Word.

Now that is RADICAL, isn't it?

Phillip

__________________
Pastor Phillip M. Way
[url=http://www.timeintheword.org][color=blue] Maranatha Community Church of Central Texas[/color][/url]
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When all souls are saved and all mourners comforted we may venture to discuss recondite theories, but not while graveyards are filling with those who know not God. -- CH Spurgeon

[b]The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
Luke 18:27[/b]

Yes, and thanks for the edifying post.

Just curious. I'm guessing that you don't totally abstain from all forms of entertainment, but try to keep it in its proper perspective. What types of entertainment do you enjoy most?

__________________
Bob Howes
Framingham, MA

A reoccurring thought:

Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

I enjoy things that I can do with my friends as a group - things that allow fellowship while we are being entertained. One recent example is when 3 families from our church went to the Johnson Space Center in Houston and concluded the day at a carnival and boardwalk down at the coast of the Gulf of Mexico - a time of rides and games, etc. It was great fun and offered us hours of fellowship!

My wife and I (alone or with other couples) do occassionally go see a movie - but that is maybe once or twice a year, or when there is a really good movie to see. We did go see The Incredibles recently and highly recommend it.

Families in our church get together often for games ( there are 2 men at church that I have yet to defeat in chess but neither will play me Scrabble! ), and even a few nights of video game tournaments with the kids. Putt-putt golf, bowling, tennis, baseball, fishing, hunting or shooting, hiking, camping - these are all things that entertain me and all things we have done in the last year with families from church.

What I react to though is this overwhelming flood of people who run to see every movie out there and sit glued to their tvs all day at home. I know one couple who claim to be believers (though not Reformed) and they see several movies a week! Literaly. Every movie that comes out they go and see. It is like an addiction. It is sad.

The point I want to make is that whatever we do we need to be seeking to glorify God in it. And often the choices at the movies are a waste of time at best and an outright slap in God's face at worst.

Phillip

AMEN!!!!!!!!!

Is it really required that a person watch an R-rated movie in order to "engage the culture" ?

__________________
Fredrick T. Greco
Senior Pastor, Christ Church PCA (Katy, TX)
Christ Church Blog

"The heart is the main thing in true religion...It is the hinge and turning-point in the condition of man's soul. If the heart is alive to God and quickened by the Spirit, the man is a living Christian. If the heart is dead and has not the Spirit, the man is dead before God." (J.C. Ryle)

it is all sacred, it is all for God's glory, and we are called to be separate and holy unto the Lord. Drinking freely of the culture we live in is not being separate! "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness for they shall be satisfied."

Phillip

Absolutely. I guess the problem with me is that almost no movies actually report sin the way the Bible does - negatively. Almost all glory in it.