Split Thread: Can Musical Notes, Arrangements, and Beats Be Inherently Evil?

[Grymir]

Not really. Guided imagery is a good form of therapy. Some people can't do it unless they are hypnotized. And there are alot of others. Those were the first couple I could find that seemed o.k., and would serve as an introduction. The ones I had access to in college I did not see. ie, Beck and others of the Cognitive psychology movement. Which was just starting to take over from the behavioral dominance in the field. Which is why this type of thing is so hard to believe. The behavioral stuff so permeated society at large, that most people's view of man is behaviorally governed. But our behaviors are more affected by how we think and not necessarily what we think. (ie, Ayn Rand's Anti-Conceptual mentality) Which would explain why Rap music is inherently wrong, if not evil. It keeps people from developing their higher forms of thinking, and just keeps them on a primitive level. Ie, just operating on the range of the moment, instead of thinking about what will happen if they do such and such. And if people can't even think correctly, wrong behavior will follow.

That's why the N.T. talks about having the mind of Christ. The Holy Spirit comes in and gives us God's thoughts. That's why I kind of allude to wrongness or evil. It is a way to keep people from even comprehending the ways of God, or even His existence. Even though that which may be known is known by His creatures that He made, our thought process can be derailed. Joel Osteen's crowd is a good example. Watch a video when the real gospel is presented to them. And how angry they get at people that do. And he did it without any rhythm or beats at all. Just words alone.

[panta dokimazete]

By the way, I learned my lesson a couple of decades back: I'm not going to hope that rap goes away, because rap is my punishment for wishing that disco would go away!

[VirginiaHuguenot]

Originally Posted by py3ak

Josh, let me just raise one question to test your reasoning here. Has it been proven without exception that cocaine (upon ingestion) impacts every person's brain negatively? What if someone were to claim that cocaine or heroin or cyanide did not happen to impact them? Can you categorically prove that this isn't so? I'm not saying I disagree with you on music --just wondering how much your argument would go to prove.

Reuben -- You may wish to read the link in post #25.

[Grymir]

Panta, neither. I was setting some ground rules for this thread. So many times people get mad or say things that seem rude. and people try to get them kicked off the thread or keep them from saying things. I like to hear all people, whether I agree or not. So I always say that when I start a thread. I wasn't speaking to you specifically. I also started my looong post above before I had a chance to see you ask.

[panta dokimazete]

Originally Posted by Grymir

Not really. Guided imagery is a good form of therapy. Some people can't do it unless they are hypnotized. And there are alot of others. Those were the first couple I could find that seemed o.k., and would serve as an introduction. The ones I had access to in college I did not see. ie, Beck and others of the Cognitive psychology movement. Which was just starting to take over from the behavioral dominance in the field. Which is why this type of thing is so hard to believe. The behavioral stuff so permeated society at large, that most people's view of man is behaviorally governed. But our behaviors are more affected by how we think and not necessarily what we think. (ie, Ayn Rand's Anti-Conceptual mentality) Which would explain why Rap music is inherently wrong, if not evil. It keeps people from developing their higher forms of thinking, and just keeps them on a primitive level. Ie, just operating on the range of the moment, instead of thinking about what will happen if they do such and such. And if people can't even think correctly, wrong behavior will follow.

That's why the N.T. talks about having the mind of Christ. The Holy Spirit comes in and gives us God's thoughts. That's why I kind of allude to wrongness or evil. It is a way to keep people from even comprehending the ways of God, or even His existence. Even though that which may be known is known by His creatures that He made, our thought process can be derailed. Joel Osteen's crowd is a good example. Watch a video when the real gospel is presented to them. And how angry they get at people that do. And he did it without any rhythm or beats at all. Just words alone.

Brother - you make some good points about a variety of things - none which help prove your original case, but I will take the stance that we agree to disagree on this matter.

By the by - I could imagine - in the right circumstances and context - a form of God-honoring rap music. It would be a BIG stretch, but I could see it.

now...Death Metal? I dunno - this type truly seems to be an alignment of the worst aspects of emotion influencing music as I have heard.

[Grymir]

Panta, that is sooooo interesting you should mention that. I wanted to form a Christian Death Metal Band. (I'm an 80's hair band left over) But the Contemporary Christian Music movement squashed my desire. Sigh, when they asked me to play an instrument at Church, They were shocked when I talked about how wrong I thought is was. Man-centered vs. God-centered. There are some Christian Rappers on this board already. I'm sure I'll hear about it when they find this thread.

How come nobody's picking on me () for my statements about the CCM movement, only the rap part??

[Coram Deo]

I won't pick on ya... I agree that with ya.... Of course I think I might believe a few things stronger... Like I do believe a beat alone can cause both mental and health problems... I have in the past posted medical studies to this affect...

Originally Posted by Grymir

Panta, that is sooooo interesting you should mention that. I wanted to form a Christian Death Metal Band. (I'm an 80's hair band left over) But the Contemporary Christian Music movement squashed my desire. Sigh, when they asked me to play an instrument at Church, They were shocked when I talked about how wrong I thought is was. Man-centered vs. God-centered. There are some Christian Rappers on this board already. I'm sure I'll hear about it when they find this thread.

How come nobody's picking on me () for my statements about the CCM movement, only the rap part??

[JBaldwin]

Originally Posted by Grymir

Panta, that is sooooo interesting you should mention that. I wanted to form a Christian Death Metal Band. (I'm an 80's hair band left over) But the Contemporary Christian Music movement squashed my desire. Sigh, when they asked me to play an instrument at Church, They were shocked when I talked about how wrong I thought is was. Man-centered vs. God-centered. There are some Christian Rappers on this board already. I'm sure I'll hear about it when they find this thread.

How come nobody's picking on me () for my statements about the CCM movement, only the rap part??

This is an aside, and I promise not to hijack this thread, but several times you have made comments about CCM, could you please define what you mean by that? Some of what I consider to be CCM has entire sections of the Psalms for lyrics.

[Coram Deo]

CCM is more then just lyrics... It is a combination of lyrics and melody in a rock style which would include metal, rap, trance, etc.... Praise choruses are a sub category of CCM...

Originally Posted by JBaldwin

This is an aside, and I promise not to hijack this thread, but several times you have made comments about CCM, could you please define what you mean by that? Some of what I consider to be CCM has entire sections of the Psalms for lyrics.

[Grymir]

Contemporary Christian Music movement - Take a form of secular music and inject Jesus's name a few times. Have a few not-so-modestly dress girls on the cover and voila! A CCM band is born.

I'm doing a longer post. Just wanted to give the quick answer. Because the Psalms for lyrics would probably not be included in this catagory.

[Presbyterian Deacon]

Originally Posted by bookslover

By the way, I learned my lesson a couple of decades back: I'm not going to hope that rap goes away, because rap is my punishment for wishing that disco would go away!

So you're the one to blame for rap!

Thanks alot!

[panta dokimazete]

Originally Posted by Grymir

Contemporary Christian Music movement - Take a form of secular music and inject Jesus's name a few times. Have a few not-so-modestly dress girls on the cover and voila! A CCM band is born.

I'm doing a longer post. Just wanted to give the quick answer. Because the Psalms for lyrics would probably not be included in this catagory.

Would you consider Red Mountain Music to be CCM?

[Coram Deo]

Sigh, I knew I was going to be dragged into this.... Ok, I am just going to post some medical findings and then let you all talk about it and leave it at that.....


"Physicist Harvey Bird and neurobiologist Gervasia Schreckenberg subjected different groups of mice to the sound of traditional voodoo drumming, to Strauss waltzes, and to silence, and then tested each group's ability to navigate through a maze to get food. All music was played continuously at low volumes to eliminate possible behavioral effects from loud sounds generally. The groups that were subjected to either silence or Strauss waltzes had no problem learning the maze, with the Strauss waltz group having a slight edge in performance. However, the voodoo group performed progressively worse over the period of time they were exposed to the music and eventually became so disoriented that they became unable to complete the maze at all. These mice were also hyperactive and aggressive, often engaging in cannibalistic behavior.

On dissection of the brains of these mice, highly abnormal neuronal growth patterns were found in the hippocampus region, with excessive dendritic branches growing out in all directions yet making few connections to other neurons; the hippocampus region is known to be important in learning and memory formation. Significant increases in messenger RNA, which is involved in memory formation, were also found. This latter effect probably corresponds to the increase in dendritic branching, as if the brains were persistently attempting to make sense out the sound stimulus, but could not. Some researchers and health professionals have suggested that the common use of anapestic rhythms (persistently syncopated, with two short beats, a long beat, then a pause) might be the cause.

Effect of music on cortisol levels in humans

Different types of music may significantly affect blood cortisol levels. Cortisol and adrenaline are two "stress" hormones that are secreted by the adrenal glands in response to ACTH. In one experiment, patients who had just been informed of their need for imminent surgery, were tested for blood cortisol concentrations after listening to a calming piece of music, chosen by each patient in consultation with a music therapist; cortisol levels were reduced by 50% compared with the control group that did not listen to any music.

Music and its effects on plant growth

Plants have been shown to significantly increase their rate of growth when stimulated by specific sound frequencies. In the 1950's, Indian botanist T.C. Singh observed under a microscope the protoplasm streaming in an Asian aquatic plant, which normally increases at sunrise, and discovered that such streaming could be induced at other times of the day by activating an electrically driven tuning fork. He then experimented with recorded South Indian violin music played to a wide variety of plants, with frequencies of the fundamental tones in the 100 to 600 Hz range; significantly increased growth rates resulted. About the same time, a Canadian named Eugene Canby began subjecting test plots of wheat to recordings of violin sonatas by J.S. Bach, and found that yields increased by 66%. Other tests in Russia, the U.S., and Canada with ultrasonic frequencies yielded similar increases in the growth rates of other plant species.

Various researchers then determined that the range of frequencies around 5000 Hz were especially potent in stimulating plant growth. During the 1960's, researcher Dorothy Retallack determined that these frequencies were best administered in the form of classical music (compositions of J.S. Bach, Haydn, Beethoven, Brahms, Schubert, and other European 18th and 19th century composers; traditional North Indian music performed on sitar and tabla), played intermittently for several hours per day. A Minnesota plant breeder named Dan Carlson collaborated with a music teacher named Michael Holtz to create an audio tape with a combination of frequencies centered about the 5000 Hz range, which Holtz immediately recognized as being very similar to the sound of a bird chorus at dawn. Carlson then used this music to induce record-breaking growth rates in Purple Passion vine plants.

Retallack also experimented with various types of rock music to see what effects they would have on plant growth. Plants "listening" to selections from Led Zeppelin, Vanilla Fudge, and Jimi Hendrix became stunted or gangly, with long stems and sparse leaf growth, some bending away from the sound source; after 16 days, most of these plants died.

Retallack also found that the discordant music of 20th century composers Arnold Schönberg and Anton von Webern also caused plants to atrophy, but not to the degree of the rock music. Schönberg is considered to be the father of 12-tone music, characterized by a total "freedom" from harmonic contraints, wherein all 12 tones of the western musical scale are ideally considered to be of equal weight and value. Twelve-tone principles of composition were eagerly embraced by avant garde faculty at music schools during the early 20th century, and over the following decades began to appear in popular music, and in background music for television and radio programs. The 12-tone style is what gives music for horror and suspense films its particular capacity to shock and terrorize. "

[py3ak]

Andrew, I suppose you were directing me to this paragraph from the article you linked.

This may be illustrated as follows: Beyond doubt it is sinful to commit suicide by drinking carbolic acid. This, however, is not because the use of carbolic acid is sinful in itself, but because it is used with suicidal intent. In such a case, the sin committed is the sin of suicide, not the sin of drinking carbolic acid. Carbolic acid being a material thing cannot be sinful in itself. If its use were sinful in itself, that use would be sinful regardless of the quantity used. If one drop of carbolic acid were to be dissolved in a thousand gallons of water, and one drop of the resultant solution drunk, the drinking of that one drop would be a sin deserving the punishment of eternal death, provided the use of carbolic acid is sinful in itself.

-J.G. Vos

And obviously cocaine is not a sinful substance. It is not a moral pimple on the face of the universe that poppies grow in fields. But that was not the point I was raising. Cyanide is considered a lethal substance; cocaine is considered an addictive substance. I am not saying they are therefore bad: I am asking if it has been universally proven that they are such (which obviously in the nature of the case it can't be: in order to prove that cyanide was universally lethal we should have to give it to everybody --and if it did turn out to be, it would still be a failed experiment in that no one would be around to publish an article about it in Nature). Unless I misunderstood him, that was the standard Josh wanted in order to demonstrate that, say, the rhythms of Swan Lake are relaxing, or ranchero music is annoying. That is the point I am interested in, and that is why I asked him for clarification.

It is really a question of whether the lack of exhaustive data in induction ought to prevent us from reaching a generalization.

[panta dokimazete]

Coram - can you post links to the full studies? I'd like to look at their methodology, control specs and other criteria for the studies.

Also - this does not substantiate the premise of the OP. Long term physiological/psychological effects vs an altered state of consciousness caused by a particular beat type.

[Thomas2007]

As my Pastor says, "Music that is designed to be felt through your feet is intended to stir up the sexual energies and the lust of the flesh." I've learned that he is right, music is not just neutral tones strung together - they come from the heart and are an audible expression of it just as much as words are.

[panta dokimazete]

This guy certainly agrees...

The world and it's ways loves a yo-yo. The string is let out. We learn advanced spiritual techniques. We strive, do better, climb up the spiritual path of the world's mainstream religions or the feel good philosophies of today's movements. We stay at that plateau for awhile, feeling connected to God, to pure Love and wanting to serve the Christ in others. But these paths are lacking certain spiritual truths. One of these is a secret the vampires of the Spirit do not want you to know. They know how easy it is to steal the Light. The string gets jerked back. They pull on your chain. The Light garnered in the chakras is lost in a fit of anger, a moment of lust, depression, etc. Add the rockrap beat to those emotions and you have the perfect formula for keeping the populace dumb and happy while sucking their Light and preventing them from becoming their true divine potential.

from here

This article uses the same research Coram posted...