Review: There Is A God

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~Greg Carpenter~
Deerfield Beach, FL

"It is a throne of grace that God in Christ is represented to us upon; but yet it is a throne still whereon majesty and glory do reside, and God is always to be considered by us as on a throne." –John Owen

I really dislike the apologetic approach that argues for a god.

I have sat through apologetic lectures that argue against atheism and use Flew as a prime example that theism is reasonable, but it only begs the question of why the Christian God.

If we argue for theism we cannot complain if people get to a theistic position and then decide which god is most reasonable for them to believe in. This is as bad as atheism.

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Mike
London City Presbyterian Church
London
England

"Surely, we wish to be orthodox, but we must first learn what real orthodoxy is. Surely, we wish to be progressive, but we must first have a basis to progress from."

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Benjamin P. Glaser
Pittsburgh, PA
Fairmount ARP Church
Student of Theology
Pittsburgh Theological Seminary
Reformed Presbyterian Theological Seminary
My Blog

"Nothing is sweet to me without the enjoyment of Christ in it." -- Thomas Brooks

There are no apologetic approaches that argue only for "a" god. Some just take longer to get to the conclusion of the god or God in question.

CT

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Hermonta Godwin
Christ The King PCA
Raleigh, NC

Are we seeing the return of a covenant child?

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The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

we shouldn't even be arguing whether God exists or not. King David says, "Only a fool says in in heart there is no God". A person that is of such a belief is already hardened and determined against all light of conscience, nature and word. I simply walk away from Atheists. In due time God will either flay them in His mercy or in His wrath. Atheists are presumptuous impious and stubborn human beings.

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~Keon Garraway~ Brooklyn, NY Member of Franklin Square OPC

Love for God demonstrated by the love for our children in giving them a God centered education is the only hope for our country. by David Morrow
Pslam 71:20 [Thou], which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth.

I would like to hear a big "Jesus is Lord" from the man to see the work of saving grace in him.

If he should come to Christ, it would remind me of the wandering Augustine made before his conversion.

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Bryan Wiley
Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
Reformed Baptist Church
Louisville, Kentucky

I didn't say he'd arrived yet! I hope he does return.

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The man who is disposed to think of his sin as a great calamity, rather than as a heinous crime, is not likely either to reverence God or to respect His law. - John Kennedy, 1873
Meg
Blog
Member, Intown Presbyterian Church,PCA, Portland, OR

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Hey, still better than where he was!

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~etexas~

Mike, I agree. Every apologetic system that I've seen used in atheist debates usually points to Deism, Cosmological argument, argument from design, presuppositionalism(nothing distinctly Christian in this apologetic method), etc. I think we need to be honest with the naturalitstic materalists and tell them how it is, we believe because of subjective religious experience, or put another way, we believe because God granted us faith, because He revealed Himself to us by His Spirit. Doesn't make an academically respectable religion, but I think it's in line with 1 Cor 1:18-3. The Gospel is foolishness, except to those who are called.

As others have said, Flew isn't really any closer to being a Christian. It's no problem disproving materialism, but proving Christianity? It can't be done. It's foolishness to the Greek and scandalous to the Jew.

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Andrew Clerebout
Joy Baptist Church, IFB (Westland, MI)

"Let us never forget that truth, distorted and exaggerated, can become the mother of the most dangerous heresies." - J.C. Ryle, Holiness

Why? Both deists and atheists are rebels who hate God and will be punished for their sins.

He was outside of Christ before, he's outside of Him now. Christ is all that matters.

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Andrew DeShazo, Deacon, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"All of us stumble in many ways, but if anyone is never at fault in what he says, then he is mature, able to control his whole body."(James 3:2)

The only way that you could refute that he is better off is if you are willing to say, one's path to orthodox Christianity is the same going from, a form of deism or straight out and out atheism.

CT

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Hermonta Godwin
Christ The King PCA
Raleigh, NC

When i was agnostic the arguments for God helped me. If God is God then He is a rational God and I thought Christianity was irrational until I read some Plantinga, and Aquinas and others.

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

Dr. Sproul was my apologetics professor in seminary and I certainly did not follow his approach to the subject. He subscribes to the so-called classical approach of Aquainas and dispises the presuppositional approach. If you listen to his lecture his argument is based on probability. It argues for the existence of God, but not the LORD God who created the heavens and the earth.

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Stephen Welch
PCA Teaching Elder
Nova Scotia :cheers:

Atheism is not an issue of the mind but the heart. You do not need to convince a person of the existence of God anymore than you have to convince them of energy. They reject God, as Paul teaches in Romans one, because of their sin. They will not have God ruling over them, but it does not matter what they think, because they are still under His sovereignity.

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Stephen Welch
PCA Teaching Elder
Nova Scotia :cheers:

Yeah, Thomism seems extremely weak in my humble opinion. While the arguments have their uses, I think they ultimately fail to lead one to a concept of God the Omnipotent. Where Thomism is a .22 revolver, presuppositionalism is a Howitzer.

(I know you guys like gun analogies.)

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Andrew DeShazo, Deacon, Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church, Memphis, TN
"All of us stumble in many ways, but if anyone is never at fault in what he says, then he is mature, able to control his whole body."(James 3:2)

I like what a student of VanTil's said, "Presuppositionalists do not reject arguments for the existence of God, but that is not their starting point."

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Stephen Welch
PCA Teaching Elder
Nova Scotia :cheers:

Precisely, according to that apologetic method, all you have done is moved someone from one form of idolatry (atheism) to another (a belief in a god of their own imagination).

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

The problem is though that the arguments for the existence of God only work if you presuppose that God exists.

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

Maybe not. It just appears that he is a further away from the smoke than before, but the flames are just as real.

His revelation must lead to conversion not self-justification.

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Tom Albrecht
Member, Covenant URCNA, New Holland, PA.

"I'm not a famous man. I'm just a simple country doctor with horse sense."

Withdrawn with an apology.

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~etexas~