Is Sex Selection wrong in and of itself, independent of negative consequences such as abortion, embryonic destruction and the like?

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Caleb
Trinity Baptist Church
Spokane, WA

They can do that?

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My name is Davis. I am the Lord's.

I gather with saints at Bethel Presbyterian Church here in Lake Charles, LA, where I live.

[b][SIZE="3"]"[/SIZE][/b][COLOR="RoyalBlue"]I dwell in the high and holy place, also with him that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones[/COLOR].[b][SIZE="3"]"[/SIZE][/b] -Our Father, the Lord God (Isaiah 57:15)

If someone were to say that choosing the gender of your baby is morally wrong, then what would be the basis to do so?

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Brian Bosse
Faith Community Church
Tucson, Arizona
Scientiam Dei

I wonder if the culture one is in would make a difference.

For instance if someone in America wanted a girl for selfish reasons...maybe so that the mother could re-live her childhood through her.

Or someone in a culture that is known for violence to women who wanted a boy for non-selfish reasons...because they would not want their daughter subjected to things that women are subjected to in those cultures.

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Larry Bray
Training for Elder - Reformed Presbyterian Church of Boothwyn, PCA
Boothwyn, PA - http://www.rpcb.org/

Free Online Reformed Seminary - http://www.tnars.net

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Yes, with pre-implantation genetic diagnosis and In vitro fertilisation, and abortion.

This is a good way to put the question. I have no idea what their basis would be independent of alleged negative consequences that would result.

It is good to bring up such a point, but consider this. To quote Julian Savulescu in his article Sex Selection: The Case For, “Some parents want their children to be great musicians. Sometimes this desire becomes overbearing, as depicted in the film Shine. But the answer is not to ban music schools. The solution is to help parents to be more tolerant and accepting.”
The reasoning is that this is analogous to sex selection.

As far as the second example goes, that does seem to be a morally praiseworthy reason to have a boy (now how they actually carry that out is an entirely different matter).

The fruit of the womb is God's provenance and we should not try to manipulate it in any way, shape, or form. To do so is to usurp his power and take it for yourself. Utter blasphemy imho.

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Traci
Lynnwood OPC
Psalm 52:8-9
8 But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever.
9 I will praise thee for ever, because thou hast done it: and I will wait on thy name; for it is good before thy saints.

I have a funny feeling that you would rescind this argument in any other area in which humans use science to manipulate nature.

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Davidius
Husband of Emilia
Member: First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham (RPCNA) - Durham, NC
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German Literature and Classics

This may explain the old adage about Baptists being Methodists with shoes, and Presbyterians being Baptists who can read. To round out the adage, Lutherans might qualify as Presbyterians who drink to excess, and Episcopalians as Lutherans who know when to say when. - D.G. Hart

Just like what medicine is available is God's providence. Think of all the people who would have lived substantially longer if penicillin had been discovered years earlier.

CT

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Hermonta Godwin
Christ The King PCA
Raleigh, NC

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Chris


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Christopher Blum
Member of Riveroaks Reformed Presbyterian Church (PCA) in Germantown, TN
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Some of the most sane, biblical reasoning on medical ethics came from the late Dr. Bahnsen: http://www.cmfnow.com/index.asp?Page...S&Category=487

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Chris Rhoades -33
Good Shepherd Presbyterian Church (PCA) Nashville, TN-Under Care

Vera theologia non theoretica, sed practica est; Finis siquidem eius agere est hoc est vitam vivere deiformem. - Martin Bucer
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Thanks for the link.

I am not talking about all manipulation of nature, but about the fruit of the womb specifically. Who is born or not. God gave us dominion over the garden and everything in it but NOT over the fruit of the womb. In Genesis 9 the life blood of a person (embryo or fetus) God demands and accounting.

If you see this as anything other than and early term abortion argument please distinguish it.

I thought the distinguishing happened in the opening post in this thread?

CT

Ok hypothetical time.

What about an artificial insemination conducted whereby the husband's sperm had previously been filtered (I remember hearing once that there's a significant enough chemical compositional difference between X and Y that would make this possible) so that all that was used was either X or Y chromosome sperm.

What about that situation?

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Scott
Dallas, Texas
PCA

"I believe that pluralistic secularism, in the long run, is a more deadly poison than straightforward persecution." - Francis Schaeffer

OK, but in that case the question is really about whether or not gender selection (and and sex change?) is the domain of man or God.

I still say this is the domain of God.

Note the consequences of the decision. If it's not wrong to change the ordained sex of a unwitting baby then how could it be wrong for an adult to make such a change?

I don't think that logically follows, because you're not changing the sex of a baby, you're preventing it from being a certain gender.

Theoretical, there are methods of preconception sex selection, but I’m not sure how effective they are. I think some have reasonable effectiveness though.

How can this be equated with abortion? The child is not being killed. Perhaps I don't know enough about the discussion. *shrug*

But I do know that Christ is the Lord of the living and the dead. He has set the times and boundaries for every individual. Does that mean that this excludes preventative measures we take to prolong an ill person's life? Of course not. God doesn't just snap his fingers and pop things into existence, after the Creation of course ; he uses means. But according to what you said it seems like it would also be wrong to try to alter the "natural" process of anything, including medicine, using chemicals for plants and livestock, etc. What makes children special in this regard?

Dagmire & David, are you guys speaking of some procedure that is already available that prevents a certain sex from occurring thus guaranteeing the other??

I haven't heard of this. I would still say that the sex of the baby is God's provenance and we shouldn't try to manipulate it. It is not our decision whether a baby is a Moses or a Mary. Even though via 2nd causes God's will is supreme, I think it would be ungrateful and not in the spirit of humility proper to a Christian, to not accept what God gives but to try to resist his will.

Here is an example of what I think they are talking about:

http://www.microsort.net/

I'm uncomfortable with it, I admit. But I think the question about whether it is unbiblical is difficult.

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R.Vic Bottomly
Providence Reformed Baptist Church, Tacoma, WA

I was talking about Theoretical's hypothetical situation. I don't know how sex selection works.

http://www.microsort.net/



That is awful. The whole idea is so "me" based it is sickening! Having children is not like shopping. You don't have children to accessorize your life with what you pick and choose. It is a privilege and you are called "blessed" when it happens to you.

It's not so much that you can point to a specific law against it in scripture, but it is a matter of the state of ones heart and faith in God that shows forth. Trying to wrest control of your life from God and his providence, trying to be sovereign in your own life when it is not your own. We have been bought with a price.

Yes, flow cytometric separation technology I believe is a preconcptual method.
Most cases of people having children involve wants and desires of the parents. What is wrong with wanting to have, say, a girl, and being able to increase ones chances of having a girl? Unless it results in harm, why is it wrong?

But I think this is the real issue. Often we come across things for which we personally have a distaste. And often they aren't spoken against in Scripture so we try to establish "principles" from various places in order to bind another's conscience. It happens with things like drinking, smoking, gambling, etc. I've tried to do it with dangerous recreational activities like sky-diving. But, as Paul said, though certain things may not be "expedient" that doesn't make them unlawful. You do not know a person's heart yet you are saying that if they were to want two boys and two girls instead of four girls (perhaps they want to carry on the family name?) this shows they are operating from a bad heart and a lack of faith in God. I just don't think this is a fair assertion for reasons already stated. You would not be consistent with that sort of categorization across the board.

i was just thinking, do you think that God could use your choice in sex selection to bring about his will? I don't know if this whole thing is Biblical...