Hi Bert,

As I said in the post above, I agree. I used the word exceptions in the context of the strict reading that might result from only reading one verse in Exodus or Deuteronomy. My point is there is work that is allowed on the sabbath, whether you consider that an exception or a clarification.

For now, I believe that the same principle applies to the commandment against bearing false witness.

For Rahab, scripture specifically commends not just her faith, but her works as well, as James states. Yes, she did well in hiding the spies, but if she had given them up to the men of the city after that would she still have been commended? Faith without works is dead, after all. She did hide the spies, but after that she was confronted by the men of the city. If she did not want to give up the spies, she had a choice, she could refuse to answer, lie or take some other action. The fact is, she chose to lie, and God commended her entire course of action. No, there is not a specific verse praising her for specifically lying, but I do not think it is so easy to try to seperate lying from what she did, as it was a essential part of her successfully hiding the spies.

I actually agree with your comments regarding the use of lying to the nazis. However, I thought the point of this thread was just to use that situation as a launching pad to discuss the issue.

I disagree that the arguments for lying in certain circumstances have been made on situational ethics, or ends justify the means reasoning. Unless you mean it is God saying that the ends justify the means. Lots of scriptures have been given with examples from the bible to prove the point that God allows deception in certain circumstances. There may be disagreement about the verses, but to call his situational ethics in the sense you mean is unfair and ignoring the arguments put forth.

__________________
Mark Li
International University Church
New South Wales, Australia

God does use sinful men. As Brakel puts it, God uses a crooked stick...
But that does not make man's action any less sinful.

Just like Abraham sinned by lying to Pharao and Abimelech...
Just like Isaac lied by lying to Abimelech...
Just like Jacob deceived his father..
Just like the brothers of Joseph sinned selling Joseph into slavery...
Just like David pretended he was witless in Gaza...
Just like Abraham sinned with Hagar
Just like Jacob sinned having 2 wives
Just like David sinned having multiple wives

God was often long suffering, not punishing the sins of all these holy people. And God used all these sinful actions of sinning saints, for our edification.

All things MUST work together for good, those that love him, and are called according to His purpose. Even the sinful actions of sinful saints. Even the sinful actions of the reprobate, for that matter.

But to transgress God's law is still sin.

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Bert Mulder
Elder of the First Protestant Reformed Church of Edmonton
Edmonton Alberta Canada

Thomas, you are willing to lie, but are are you willing to swear false oaths in order to protect your fellow man? If not, then why should someone go to you when they are persecuted? Should they not go to someone else without such scruples?

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Scott Roper
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA): "A bunch of hippie Calvinists"
Winston-Salem, NC

But we do not believe that to lie in a war-situation is a breach of God's Law.

__________________
Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)
http://reformedcovenanter.wordpress.com/
The Regulative Principle of Worship: Explained and Applied (Xulon Press)
A Conquered Kingdom: Biblical Civil Government (Reformed Worldview Books)

That is what the Jesuits believed to, and used it to slaughter thousands (millions?) of protestants...

Maybe it is, but that is irrelvant as the Jesuits are not fighting a godly war.

This is indeed a tough question.

Frankly my opinion means little to it, however, I would do what it took to preserve the lives I was protecting. Including, lying and even killing (defensively) if I had to. Notice though the act would be to preserve life, the Jesuits acted to destroy lives. Therein, I believe, lies a big difference.

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Donald Jacobs
Marysville. WA
Cascade Church (CRCNA)

Cum vero infirmor tunc potens sum.

Thanks brother, you have made the point better than I could.

So are all the commandments fair game during wartime, or only the 9th?

Are lies that "are told to produce good results" acceptable outside of wartime?

__________________
Davidius
Member: First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham (RPCNA) - Durham, NC
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German Literature and Classics

And though the really inspired artist may complain that, with the majority, piano-playing is mere strumming, and painting little more than daubing, yet, the exuberant feeling of having a share in the privileges of art is so overwhelming, that the scorn of the artist is preferred to the abandonment of art training in education. To have laid a production of your own, however poor, upon the altar of art becomes more and more the characteristic of an accomplished civilization. - Abraham Kuyper

In war, if you use diversionary tactics, are you sinning?

I know we've been around and around, but nobody seems to have a good answer.

May a female spy seduce a high-ranking enemy officer in order to obtain information that would save lives? If not, why not? Why can she break the 9th commandment but not the 7th?

We are not saying that any of the commandments are "fair game" at all, what we are saying is that the 9th commandment does not forbid lying in this particular circumstance due to the examples set down in Scripture. Just as we argue that killing someone is not a breach of the 6th commandment either in warfare or if they have committed a crime worth of death as defined by God.

Can you provide us with a Biblical example to justify this?

I'm asking the question based on "good and necessary consequence." If lying is okay, why not adultery?

But you have not proved that lying is a sin in that particular circumstance, if it is then why is Rahab commended by the NT writers for her faith which was evidenced by lying to protect the spies?

I know I have said this before, but while your question is a good one, it does not really affect the answer to the OP.

God specifically gives us examples show his approval of lying in certain situations.

Exactly what situations he approves of, and how far those principles may be extended to other commandments is a worthwhile discussion, but does not invalidate the principle that there are exceptions to the strict reading of the 9th commandment, just as there are to the 4th commandment.

EDIT: Just saw your post above... to put it another way, I think we can establish clearly from the bible that God allows lie in war, or to save innocent lives. How far good and necessary consequence will extend this principle beyond fact situations similar to those in the bible is up for debate, but the answer does not, imho, affect the validity of the exceptions to the 9th commandment that those bible examples show.

And around and around we go. No need to discuss the same issues six times.

The way to hell is paved with good intentions....

The esteemed apostle Paul also intended well, when persecuting the church, prior to the Lord opening his eyes.

Yet, although he was pardoned for those sins, he was still sinning, even if, as he himself writes, he committed them 'ignorantly, out of unbelief'.

And even that sinful act God used to scatter the church away from Jerusalem, so that the Gospel was, as a consequence, brought to the surrounding contries.

Still, that does not lessen the sin.

A moral action requires three things:

1) obedience to a norm
2) proper motive
3) understanding the situation properly

Stealing is wrong, but in wartime I will steal information.
Killing is wrong, but in wartime I will kill

Adultery is wrong, and in wartime you will commit adultery to get information? You should change the variable to something that isn't in the category which everyone knows "in their common sense" is okay during wartime.

The Jews had to offer sacrifices for sins of ignorance, didn't they?

Is killing in wartime legit? Maybe. Instead of adultery, let's say "make love to wife." That is honorable but if I do it for the wrong motive (to get something, bribe, power) it is sin. If I do it in the wrong situation (where it damages her health, etc).

Moral theology, and the Bible, does reason this way:

1. We must walk according to the commandments (God's word--our normative perspective)
2. We must have the the proper telos (we must seek the kingdom/glory of God; do all things to the glory of God) situational perspective
3. We must have the proper motive (love, a heart purified by faith--our existential perspective ).