Murray recognizes that he can't come out and say Rahab's lie was wrong, sinc e when the New Testament had a chance to condemn Rahab for lying, it didn't. But he is almost embarrassed by the fact that Rahab did lie and spends the next few pages shadowboxing with a few exegetical issues, leaving the reader largely unsatisfied.

Rahab lied. The New Testament praised her for it. squirming doesn't make it go away.

Some could say that, "Well, the NT praised her for her faith, which was hiding the spies, and not for the lie." This is hyper-knitpicking. Say that she did go out on faith and hide the spies but didn't lie. 5 minutes later, both Rahab and the spies are executed. Nice faith, but no outcome.

Yes. "But the upshot of our examination has been that no instance demonstrates the propriety of untruthfulness under any exigency." (Principles of Conduct, p. 146)

Mason's position is found in post #12.

__________________
Andrew Myers
Husband of Jessica, Father of Jackson, Katie and Samuel
Member, Presbyterian Reformed Church of Northern Virginia
Warrenton, VA USA
Editor, The Matthew Poole Project

"On land, at sea, at home, abroad, / I smoke my pipe and worship God." -- J.S. Bach

It's a lie, but no it is not sinful. In other words, sin is a transgression of God's law, not your morals. The law is: "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor." Exodus 20:16 You, your emotions and feelings are not the standard - His law is.

Our duty is to uphold God's law and advance justice and righteousness - not be moralists imagining we live in a moralistic black and white world. When evil becomes good and good becomes evil and an ordained institution is at the heart of it like this situation, if you become moralistic in your approach to the law, then your moralistic approach to the law will make you a slave to sin and you'll abandoned the faith in self-righteousness.

In this example, the Nazi's don't have the legal standing to receive the truth - lieing to them is not sinful. You've chosen your legal position by your felonious activity of harboring fugitives. Hence, you are already a liar in deed by breaking the law in hiding them, otherwise, why are you hiding?


Apparently, though, you believe the civil magistrate in this situation has authority to receive the truth, hence lieing also includes being silent when you have a duty to speak.

A suggestion for you to consider - go take the license plates off your car and put them in your backseat and drive around for a few days. In so doing you can begin dealing with the real-world emotions of moralistic antinomian piety vs juridical obedience to Christ.

Test yourself and you'll soon figure out what a big fat liar you are - just like the rest of us. The key is to be able to make the right decision in the right circumstances, so that when the **** crows for you, then you aren't denying Christ in a misinterpreted moralistic antinomian piety whereby you think are doing right, but have instead deceived yourself.


Maybe, it depends upon what the circumstances are and what your standing is in those circumstances. Judas was honest and told Caiaphas where Christ was at - he told the truth and renounced Christ in doing it. His truth was prior to God's truth, and in his truth he become the son of the father of lies.



Yes, He is - He commands obedience to His law and His Lordship first - our circumstances have to be examined subjective to that absolute, not the ordination of an institution that can and historically does change the law and set up good and evil as opposites.

One thinks this stuff is simple to interpret - until you actually have to make a decision whereby you are disobeying an ordained authority in order to obey God - then it gets much more difficult to properly interpret. Because the question is always in your mind, did you interpret the situation properly when you set out to disobey the ordained authority in the first place?

What makes logical sense in good vs evil analysis - quickly becomes much harder to interpret and apply when good becomes evil and evil becomes good. You have to make numerous judgments within those circumstances and many times unfold an inside out situation before you can ever begin figuring out what your duties and responsibilities are.

We must always strive to insure that our interpretation of circumstances is correct whereby our actions are based upon God's law as the objective absolute and our morality is in subjection to that - when the tables get turned and good becomes evil and evil becomes good, then it is very easy to also become confused whereby our morality becomes objective and God's law becomes subjective to it. Generally, you'll think you are doing the right thing until you cross examine it from several different angles.

Yep, obedience to His objective law not our subjective morality.


Cordially In Christ,


Thomas

__________________
Thomas Weddle
Member, Covenant Reformed Presbyterian Church
Evansville, Indiana

In Germany harboring Jews was an act of sedition - it got you shot on the spot. If these were Jews that fled to your home moments before, then you should have kept your doors locked. Hence, because you weren't consciously acting in the best interest of the State you are guilty anyway - BLAM.

I remember discussing this with the late John Gerstner some years ago. He said that we have an obligation to tell the truth to those who have a right to it. The murderous Nazis would have no right to the truth since their intent is to use it to a wicked purpose.

He also cited examples where we intentionally deceive persons and think nothing of it. For example, a football team is under no obligation to tell the defense that the play going to the right is really a reverse coming back to the left.

We are under no obligations during times of war to be truthful to the enemy. They have no right to our truth. Deceit is expected under certain circumstances.

For what it's worth...

__________________
Dr. Don Kistler

Considering how convinced you seem of Rahab's innocence, why did you even raise the question? If her case is cut and dried then we need have no discussion about Jews.

__________________
Davidius
Member: First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham (RPCNA) - Durham, NC
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German Literature and Classics

And though the really inspired artist may complain that, with the majority, piano-playing is mere strumming, and painting little more than daubing, yet, the exuberant feeling of having a share in the privileges of art is so overwhelming, that the scorn of the artist is preferred to the abandonment of art training in education. To have laid a production of your own, however poor, upon the altar of art becomes more and more the characteristic of an accomplished civilization. - Abraham Kuyper

I can be convinced of something while wanting better justifications for it.

This isn't fair. I had to wait till I got off from work before I could post. (ie so I wouldn't commit a sin while posting about whether something was a sin or not.) And y'all beat me to the firepower answer, but here it goes anyway. (Major logical kuddo's to the who's a Jew anyway defense)

When you know they are at the door (I'm assuming that they do knock and ask "Hey, ya got any Jews around?), open fire on them with some Uzi's Rambo style [just war, so its not murder] bringing the judgment of God on the Nazis, then grab your Jews and make a dash to the back door and jump on the freight train that is passing by at the moment [your not depriving the R.R. company profit (no theft) because it's a government controlled railroad, and your taxes pay for it anyway], then you jump off the train and run into a library to hide. While you are there, you notice ~~Susita~~ 's bookshelf with her new Mathew Henry books on it [you don't covet them however, because your's is in the original Greek], as you run out the back door....and get into a waiting airplane. You pull out your MasterCalvin card [predetermined limit, earned with grace and the sweat of your brow] and pay for you and your Jews. And the airport taxes [obeying the civil magistrate].

While you are flying to freedom, you notice how modestly the steward people are dressed [to save you from lust, and to be politically correct at the same time, thereby avoiding two sins..one the world's, and one God's]. While over England, the engines go out [you just smile, because as a young earther, you know this is further proof of the young earth, ie, the 2nd law of thermodynamics that came into existence because of the fall...so you don't fear, which some consider a sin]. Luckily, they were putting up a new banner at the Edinburgh Inn which catches your plane and saves everybody's life. [A bunch of TR'ers smoking cigars come out and offer you a Guinness, giving God the glory]

But you notice a bunch of skinheads running toward you, so you grab your Jews and duck into a local pub, The White Horse Inn, were they are discussing whether music can be intrinsically evil or not [but in the spirit of Christian Liberty, you don't cause your weaker brother to stumble]. You then duck out the back door and board a boat full of Dispensationalists heading to America. [Who gladly take you along, because of your Jew's, seeing it is fulfilling God's prophesy in Ezekiel somewhere].

When you get to America, they drop you off at Plymouth harbor, where you hear rumors of Rob Bell being named a new moderator. [righteous indignation is no sin]. By this time the Jews are quite amazed at you (and your peaceable lifestyle), so they start asking about Jesus. You whip out your KJV Pocket New Testament and they convert on the spot. [you spend a year teaching them the reformed faith, so no decisionalism theology, which would be idolatry]. Satisfied, you see your Jews leave and you feel you have fulfilled the Great Commission. Just then a bull rushes at you and you say "I hate the horn's of a dilemma" [carefully not taking the Lord's name in vain]

So there is the right answer without you sinning at all.

__________________
Timothy Johnson
First United Presbyterian of Moline
PCUSA (Yea, I know)
Theology/Philosophy Sunday School Teacher
Davenport, IA

In a time of war are covert operations considered lying?

__________________
B.B.
Elder
GBC

Deo volente

That's just great, but you forgot about how these converted Jews then go back to start a church (KJV/EP/peado--of course!).

__________________
Sterling Harmon
Coventry, CT
PCA
Deacon
________________

"Whatever is laudable in our works proceeds from the grace of God."
-- John Calvin, Institutes III:xv.3.

"Our Lord God must be a good man, to be fond of worthless fellows. I cannot like them, and yet I, myself, am one."
-- Martin Luther, Table Talk

Oh, the sequel. My wife says that they decide they are the renemant and head out for Utah.

So many choices!

Thought this might be of interest:

from here

__________________
-JD
[URL="http://www.greeknewtestament.com/B52C005.htm#V21"]1Thess5:21[/URL]
Ordained Deacon, PCA
Serving on Ministry Staff, SBC
MS

[url=http://www.christianskepticism.org]Team blog: ChristianSkepticism.org[/url] | [URL="http://mbbchurch.com"]Martin Bluff Church [/URL] | Personal:[URL="http://jdlblog.blogspot.com"]...a Longmire rambles[/URL]

Now THAT was good!

__________________
Ben
Sanford, NC
TE Ohio Valley Presbytery, PCA

My view on this seems to be the minority on here, and I'm actually surprised by that. Some of the comments are very interesting, but there's two major reasons I don't believe lying is right, and IS a sin:

1. The means don't justify the end. Nowhere in the Bible, at least to my knowledge, are we given a pass to break one commandment for a "greater good," and a perceived greater good at that. God never says we ignore one commandment for the sake of a more important one. This concept is completely foreign to Scripture. The only thing that even comes close is Jesus "breaking" the Sabbath laws, but even then He held a very high regard for the Sabbath, and wasn't breaking it so much as fulfilling it. And the examples Blueridge Baptist gave were taken way out of context, especially the 1 Kings verses, which were referring to false prophets whose lying spirits were actually sent from Satan, not from God. So, a sin is always a sin, regardless of our intent and to what end it strives to accomplish. Lying is sinful. The Bible gives no qualifiers.

2. By lying, we are presuming to know God's will and God's plan. Naturally God doesn't want us to murder people, but who says it isn't part of God's will for these people to be captured and/or die? Remember Job? God allowed terrible things to happen to him for a very important reason, reasons that were never explained to Job. It's hard to imagine God having a reason for allowing the murder of innocent people, but then again, we aren't God and can't possibly understand His will. By lying in order to do what WE think is right we may be interfering with God's plan. How do we know what will happen to these people? Maybe they will be freed, maybe somehow God will use them to somehow impact the Nazis - we have no way of knowing. By lying, we are assuming we know exactly what God wants and exactly how what His plans are. But that's not our responsibility and not what God commands us to do. We do know he commands our obedience, and He is very clear that we are not to lie, without qualification.

So in light of all that, all we can do is obey what God clearly commands us to do in His Word, and that is to tell the truth, and trust Him that what happens next is in His hands. I hate to think we have the ability to rationalize exceptions and add clauses to the Ten Commandments.

__________________
Mason
Member, Redeemer Presbyterian Church (PCA)
New York, NY

"Come now, and let us reason together," says the Lord, "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall be as wool." - Isaiah 1:18

Are you kidding me? The fact that you can sit there and seriously reiterate that the Bible gives "no qualifiers" despite the fact that several people have pointed to multiple verses and examples that DO SEEM TO QUALIFY what constitues lying... and you still sit there saying "the Bible gives no qualifiers..." Ok... There are people who still think that the moon landing was staged in Hollywood. Whatever.

Perhaps the real issue here is that you won't allow repeated examples from within Scripture to influence what you believe Scripture is teaching in its precepts.

Wow, the only thing you left out is how you got home from emergent space in the first place to lead this grand adventure.

__________________
~James Helbert~, Wytheville, VA
Providence Reformed Presbyterian Church, RPCUS
TheBibleAlone.com / The Edinburgh Inn
"Is this not a brand plucked from the fire?” - Zechariah 3:2

That's silly. We all know it was staged at Area 52.

__________________
Ian Kemmerer
Covenant Presbetyrian Church,Reading,PA
Fleetwood,PA

"Be sti