I am working through the Republic and I have noticed that Plato (or Socrates rather) has spent a lot of time saying what justice is not, but I don't remember him saying what justice is. He spends a lot of time describing a just city, but again, I missed his definition of justice.

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

He never found any answer that fully satisfied. But he felt that there was an unambiguous example of justice in the forms. His theory of recollection said that we were aquainted with it in our former life. So, we have a dim recollection of the form, and so we do have some conception of justice. This conception is imperfect, and so we can not answer the question "what is justice," which is what he set out to do. Since we have some dim recollection we can say some things about justice, about what it is and isn't.

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Regards,

J.J.
PCA
Suffix

I took an honors course on Ancient Philosophy last semester in which we spent almost the entire time discussing the Republic (and a little of Aristotle's Politics in the end). It was one of the best classes I've taken at UNC so far.

He believed that, by creating a city and finding justice in it, he was looking at an individual under a magnifying glass, since a city is just a bunch of individuals. Find justice in the perfect city and you'll find what justice is in the individual.

Therefore, according to Socrates' argument in the Republic justice is when the three parts of the soul (appetitive, spirited and reasoning) work together in harmony, each doing what it is supposed to be doing. The appetitive and the spirited parts, like the workers and the guardians in the Kallipolis, are under the rule of reason (the philosopher-kings). The just individual will be so because reason rules and appetites are kept in check.

It's important to remember that δικη was not "justice" for Plato in the same way we think of it today.

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Davidius
Husband of Emilia
Member: First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham (RPCNA) - Durham, NC
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German Literature and Classics

This may explain the old adage about Baptists being Methodists with shoes, and Presbyterians being Baptists who can read. To round out the adage, Lutherans might qualify as Presbyterians who drink to excess, and Episcopalians as Lutherans who know when to say when. - D.G. Hart

. Except with a qualification on this statement: "The appetitive and the spirited parts, like the workers and the guardians in the Kallipolis, are under the rule of reason (the philosopher-kings). The just individual will be so because reason rules and appetites are kept in check."

I would substitute guardians for auxilaries, as Plato's definition of the guardians changes in the book. The guardians are the group that produces the philosopher kings at the end stage.

So, Producers = Appetitive
Auxilaries = Spirited
Guardians = Reason (with the philosopher kings being produced out of this group)

As well, Spirit aids Reason thus keeping the Appetite in check. Just some minor details.

The whole problem with this is that it isn't a definition of Justice. Plato (or Platocrates :P) is just describing a just city and (by analogy) a just person. But we are still lacking a definition.

At the moment I am interested in definitions. Can a definition ultimately be an example at the most basic level? Would we say this is the case with respect to God and morality?

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Caleb
Trinity Baptist Church
Spokane, WA

Wasn't there a dialogue with Meno discussing justice? Or is that the one in Republic? I can't remember and my Plato is packed up right now.

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Patrick
OPC
MDiv, RTS Jackson.

"He does well, that discourses of Christ; but he does infinitely better, that by experimental knowledge, feeds and lives on Christ." Thomas Brooks.

I think they were discussing virtue in Meno, but Plato also gives a recollection argument in Meno, which isn't as good as the one in phaedo. Anyway, I think they were discussing virtue as opposed to justice in the Meno.

Tom Bombadil
Would you recommend Philosphy For Understanding by Diogenes Allen?
I picked up this book at WSC seminary last year have not had a chance to look into it.
Have you read this book and would you recommend it?

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Ruben Cimental
Ontario California
United Reformed Church URCNA
member 4yrs

Hi Ruben,

Yes, it's a standard.