God's omnipotence

cih1355 · #1 (**permalink**) 04-13-2008, 04:12 PM

Thomas Morris in his book, Our Idea of God, discusses how God's inability to sin does not mean that God is not omnipotent. Just because God cannot sin does not mean that God lacks some power. There is no discrete power to sin. Morris says, "There are many powers necessary for sinning in various ways, but there is no single, distinct power to sin exercised in addition to all other powers exercised on any and every occasion of the intentional doing of evil (p. 80)."

Do you have any thoughts concerning that idea?

Zadok · #2 (**permalink**) 04-13-2008, 04:34 PM

Is the ability to sin a "power" - as in potency? Does this not create the very absurdity that he tries to resolve by reference to "no distinct power to sin" ?

Anton Bruckner · #3 (**permalink**) 04-13-2008, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zadok

Is the ability to sin a "power" - as in potency? Does this not create the very absurdity that he tries to resolve by reference to "no distinct power to sin" ?

exactly. The Bible describes sin in terms of a slave. "He who commits sin is a slave to sin". Sin must be described in terms of inability towards good.

Hippo · #4 (**permalink**) 04-13-2008, 05:03 PM

I have always seen the argument as God's inability to sin is the same as God's inability not to be God.

Davidius · #5 (**permalink**) 04-13-2008, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cih1355

Thomas Morris in his book, Our Idea of God, discusses how God's inability to sin does not mean that God is not omnipotent. Just because God cannot sin does not mean that God lacks some power. There is no discrete power to sin. Morris says, "There are many powers necessary for sinning in various ways, but there is no single, distinct power to sin exercised in addition to all other powers exercised on any and every occasion of the intentional doing of evil (p. 80)."

Do you have any thoughts concerning that idea?

Is this any different from the question "if God is omnipotent, can he create a rock so big he can't lift it?" "If God is omnipotent, can he sin?" IMO it revolves around a misunderstanding of the attribute of omnipotence. The hidden premise is that omnipotence means "the ability to bring about the reality of any situation linguistically describable, even logical contradictions." This is, of course, false.

The Law is an expression of God's mind/nature. He eternally thinks/wills that A is wrong, hence to sin would be for him to somehow think/will A and -A at the same time.

I don't believe that sin should be described as "the inability to do good," because Adam had the ability to do good when he sinned. Rather, as John writes, sin is merely "the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4, KJV). It is an act of the will used to break God's commands instead of follow them.

JBaldwin · #6 (**permalink**) 04-13-2008, 06:30 PM

The most simple answer I have ever heard to this question is God cannot act outside His nature. Sinning has nothing to do with God's power, but His character. He is a holy and perfect in all His ways. To sin is to violate that character.

A5pointer · #7 (**permalink**) 04-13-2008, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davidius

Quote:

Originally Posted by cih1355

Thomas Morris in his book, Our Idea of God, discusses how God's inability to sin does not mean that God is not omnipotent. Just because God cannot sin does not mean that God lacks some power. There is no discrete power to sin. Morris says, "There are many powers necessary for sinning in various ways, but there is no single, distinct power to sin exercised in addition to all other powers exercised on any and every occasion of the intentional doing of evil (p. 80)."

Do you have any thoughts concerning that idea?

Is this any different from the question "if God is omnipotent, can he create a rock so big he can't lift it?" "If God is omnipotent, can he sin?" IMO it revolves around a misunderstanding of the attribute of omnipotence. The hidden premise is that omnipotence means "the ability to bring about the reality of any situation linguistically describable, even logical contradictions." This is, of course, false.

The Law is an expression of God's mind/nature. He eternally thinks/wills that A is wrong, hence to sin would be for him to somehow think/will A and -A at the same time.

I don't believe that sin should be described as "the inability to do good," because Adam had the ability to do good when he sinned. Rather, as John writes, sin is merely "the transgression of the law" (1 John 3:4, KJV). It is an act of the will used to break God's commands instead of follow them.

Exactly the old rock question, just absurd

TimV · #8 (**permalink**) 04-13-2008, 07:59 PM

Perhaps another way of saying it is that God defines sin. Something is sin because God says it is. It was perfectly fine for Adam to marry his daughter or granddaughter. It was perfectly fine for Abram to marry his half sister. But the minute God said to Moses you can't marry your half sister it became sin. So whatever God does or says or thinks is automatically and intrinsically not sin. So how could He sin? He can do whatever He wants and it isn't sin.

JBaldwin · #9 (**permalink**) 04-13-2008, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimV

Perhaps another way of saying it is that God defines sin. Something is sin because God says it is. It was perfectly fine for Adam to marry his daughter or granddaughter. It was perfectly fine for Abram to marry his half sister. But the minute God said to Moses you can't marry your half sister it became sin. So whatever God does or says or thinks is automatically and intrinsically not sin. So how could He sin? He can do whatever He wants and it isn't sin.

If God just decides something is sin, then His character would change, and he would not be immutable. This passage from Acts 17 pops into my mind:

29 Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man. 30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

I may be wrong about this, but this scripture seems to teach that God didn't excuse the sin, but overlooked it because of ignorance.

I am open for correction on this one.

TimV · #10 (**permalink**) 04-13-2008, 08:58 PM

Quote:

If God just decides something is sin, then His character would change, and he would not be immutable.

I've given the example of Abram and Sarah's marriage, and how it later became illegal. One can think of other examples as well.

God is unchanging; as it was explained to me years ago sin isn't metaphysical, but moral.

JBaldwin · #11 (**permalink**) 04-13-2008, 09:23 PM

From that reasoning, then God could say tomorrow that it is ok to lie or steal. The reason it is wrong to lie and steal is because lying and stealing are against God's nature.

There are other things that are sinful only because God told us not to do them. For instance, He told Jonah to go to Ninevah, but Jonah went to Tarshish. Was it sinful to travel in the direction of Tarshish? No, but in this case, it was, because God commanded Jonah to do something different. The act was not sin, but the disobedience was sin.

Davidius · #12 (**permalink**) 04-13-2008, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimV

Quote:

If God just decides something is sin, then His character would change, and he would not be immutable.

I've given the example of Abram and Sarah's marriage, and how it later became illegal. One can think of other examples as well.

God is unchanging; as it was explained to me years ago sin isn't metaphysical, but moral.

Another example is God's command to Abraham that he sacrifice Isaac.

cih1355 · #13 (**permalink**) 04-15-2008, 11:51 AM

I would like to thank all of you for your input.

If God had the ability to sin, would that involve a logical contradiction?

Zadok · #14 (**permalink**) 04-16-2008, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cih1355

If God had the ability to sin, would that involve a logical contradiction?

What do you mean "if"? Do you doubt that God is unable to sin?

Brian Bosse · #15 (**permalink**) 04-16-2008, 06:32 PM

Hello cih1355,

Quote:

If God had the ability to sin, would that involve a logical contradiction?

Consider the following definition: Person A's doing action X is sin if and only if person A's doing action X violates one of God's commands.

The definition given above is one possible conception of what is meant by sin. (Note: I am not claiming this is a good definition. It is only being used for illustrative purposes.) In this case, sin is an act in violation of one of God's commands. If we apply this definition to the implication above we get the following...

If God had the ability to act in a manner that violates one of God's commands, would this involve a logical contradiction?

I would answer, 'yes'. Let's say that one of God's commands is that you should not lie. If God could lie, then this would contradict the Biblical claim that God cannot lie. Notice, this answer is based on how sin is defined. As such, before someone can answer the question, 'sin' must be defined.

Sincerely,

Brian
P.S. Zadok, the 'if' in an implication does not necessarily carry the connotation of doubt. It seems your question to cih1355 assumes that it does.

cih1355 · #16 (**permalink**) 04-17-2008, 03:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zadok

Quote:

Originally Posted by cih1355

If God had the ability to sin, would that involve a logical contradiction?

What do you mean "if"? Do you doubt that God is unable to sin?

I do not doubt that God is unable to sin.

packabacka · #17 (**permalink**) 06-02-2008, 09:02 PM

Just as Davidius and A5pointer said above, the question of God's ability to sin is the exact same as the question of His ability to create a rock that He can't lift. It is absurd to ask anything or anyone, including God, to do something that is objectively, logically impossible. Just as it is logically impossible for God not to be God, just as it is logically impossible for an unliftable rock to exist in the presence of an omnipotent being, so also is it logically impossible for an omnibenevolent deity to sin.

Since the notion of God sinning in the first place is absurd, the act is not "outside His power"; it's just intrinsically impossible. God can do all things that are logically possible.