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Philosophy Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. (Col. 2:8)

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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 11-02-2007, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Devin View Post
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Originally Posted by Pergamum View Post
For what purpsoe wold He need to go back in time...to correct a mistake?
That was my initial thought as well. I fail to see a reason why He'd need to go back. But, that still doesn't answer the question of the OP
Well, perhaps we could make something out of this yet!

Let's see....

Now, depending on how "can" is being used in the OP, the only (or one of the) way to argue for the negative is to come up with some sort of logical contradiction.

But, we could at least offer some reasons which suggest strong(er) prima facie reasons against the OP (and, depending on how we work with the below, perhaps contradicts could be manufactured; but it's notoriously hard to show a genuine contradiction in topics like these).

Okay, let's apply a (seemingly) uncontroversial proposition: for any event contingent fact F, there is a reason for F. Call this the principle of sufficient reason PSR. Let's also stipulate a (seemingly) uncontroverisal premise for an evangelical Christian - God never does something for no reason. God does everything for a reason. Call this GR.

So, since it doesn't seem *necessary* that God would have to go back in time, it would be a contingent event.

What reasons would there be for going back in time? it would seem like all we could think of wouldn't serve for a reason for God. To "fix" something that went wrong? Not on our view. To "see" some historical person? No, he would've already. To "change" some state of affairs? Why change his plan? So, there seems like there would be no reason for God to go back in time.

This would lead us to this:

If God went back in time, it would be for no reason. Thus it seems like the assumption that God would go back in time violates PSR and GR.

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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 11-02-2007, 08:58 AM
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I had Kreeft in mind but I didn't want to invoke him because people would get mad at me for quoting a Catholic.
LOL

I can take the heat. I like Kreeft. He has some good things to say, but it's fairly easy to discern when he's doing philosophy and not theology. So much of your question, and the things that surrround it, is speculative. On the one hand we have j.Budziszewski telling us things "We Can't Not Know" ( Great book by the way ), on the other we have Kreeft, telling us things "We Can't Know" but Like to think we Do!
I love Kreeft. I have listened to all of his lectures and read much of his works. The Official Peter Kreeft Site
Same here. I have had his site bookmarked for years. His lectures are very good.
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Old 11-02-2007, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devin View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pergamum View Post
For what purpsoe wold He need to go back in time...to correct a mistake?
That was my initial thought as well. I fail to see a reason why He'd need to go back. But, that still doesn't answer the question of the OP
Well, perhaps we could make something out of this yet!

Let's see....

Now, depending on how "can" is being used in the OP, the only (or one of the) way to argue for the negative is to come up with some sort of logical contradiction.

But, we could at least offer some reasons which suggest strong(er) prima facie reasons against the OP (and, depending on how we work with the below, perhaps contradicts could be manufactured; but it's notoriously hard to show a genuine contradiction in topics like these).

Okay, let's apply a (seemingly) uncontroversial proposition: for any event contingent fact F, there is a reason for F. Call this the principle of sufficient reason PSR. Let's also stipulate a (seemingly) uncontroverisal premise for an evangelical Christian - God never does something for no reason. God does everything for a reason. Call this GR.

So, since it doesn't seem *necessary* that God would have to go back in time, it would be a contingent event.

What reasons would there be for going back in time? it would seem like all we could think of wouldn't serve for a reason for God. To "fix" something that went wrong? Not on our view. To "see" some historical person? No, he would've already. To "change" some state of affairs? Why change his plan? So, there seems like there would be no reason for God to go back in time.

This would lead us to this:

If God went back in time, it would be for no reason. Thus it seems like the assumption that God would go back in time violates PSR and GR.

Mundane concerns prevented me from joining in earlier (no time!). I think this is a pretty elegant proof. That hits from a different direction what I was thinking. That is: God is coherent and therefore not one to reverse direction or change what is.

But even more fundamental, I think, is Jesus' statement "Before Abraham was, I am." When I ponder that for very long, I want to throw ashes on my head and put my face in the dirt. The Everlasting Father, Ancient of Days, holds together the past just as much as the present and the future. Past and future are real, even if we can never actually go (right now) there in our time-bound created nature.

But God is everlastingly "in" the past, present, and future. He cannot go there any more than he can "go" to Cleveland. He's already there.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2007, 10:44 PM
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I figured out how time-travel might be theoretically possible for humans. There is a key passage in Michael Crichton's Timeline that I need to reread. Also, given certain themes of Herman Dooyeweerd's thought, and it is not too far-fetched. But it is too late in the evening for that.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2007, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by victorbravo View Post
But God is everlastingly "in" the past, present, and future. He cannot go there any more than he can "go" to Cleveland. He's already there.


Very nicely thought out!

I'm adding this to my "List of things to quote when I want to sound smarter than I really am."
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2007, 12:05 AM
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Has GOD made promises in HIS word? Yes, HE keeps HIS promises. And, HE is PERFECT. HE is so PERFECT in fact that there would be no reason for HIM to have to go "back in time" because anything HE does/says/sets, is. HE cannot make mistakes. That is hard to fathom and a blessing to believe!! I don't know anyone around me who is like this. I get so excited and awe struck when I think about how PERFECT our LORD is. Just writing about it is a joy!
What I have written does not mean much w/out verses, but this is what I believe. When I was at Sunday school last weekend, we were told that GOD keeps HIS promises. There you go, I don't know if I am on the same page as the rest of you, but it just seems simple. We are not given "time traveling" options so, why don't we just go with what we know as day to day folks. (of course this is kind of vague to say)
I guess in asking these questions though, it gets us thinking about how AWESOME our GOD truly is and we get to talk/write/think about our FATHER. Good times.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2007, 01:03 AM
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The idea of God having limitations is not necessarily wrong. We understand that God does not act contrary to his holy nature. The Christian God will not create a rock he can't lift. We understand that he is able to accomplish all his holy will and good pleasure and that he controls all things toward that end. So to argue that God cannot go back in time is not necessarily incorrect. The question should instead be, is time-travel consistent with the nature of God?
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