(And I don't mean Arminianism to mean the actual specific teachings of John Wesley or whoever; I mean Arminianism in the loose sense, meaning, a theological school of thought that holds that a person can either will to believe in God (or Christ or whatever) or not, and he is morally obligated to believe)

It seems to me that Arminianism teaches that a person can will to believe that Christ can atone for his sins, or that Christ has fulfilled the requirements of the law for him, or that God will reward him if he seeks after God.

Now is it really true that a person can will to believe something? (I believe people who espouse such a view call it 'doxastic voluntarism'...) It seems to me most of the time, beliefs are produced in me: I believe I am typing messages to other human beings not because I want to, but because I simply do. It's just created in me. And it seems it was the same with my belief in Christ: I didn't just up and decide one day that I will trust in Christ for the salvation of my soul; I just started believing it. And if beliefs are simply formed in us, including saving beliefs, wouldn't that fit better in a Calvinist framework?

But if a belief is simply produced in me, and particularly a belief that is the justification of my soul, the belief that reconciles me before God, can it be said that I believed of my own free will? I don't just will to trust in God; I just do. And likewise, I think if you'd ask many Arminians (if not all of them) who are saved when and how they first came to believe, I doubt any of them came to believe by way of willing that belief to come about. It is my experience that most, if not all, say that they just came about believing, or "God opened my eyes", or something along those lines.

Here's an argument:

1. If Arminianism is true, then a person can will to believe in x.
2. But no person can will to believe in x.
3. Therefore, Arminianism is false.

__________________
Steven Nemes
Phoenix, AZ

Good philosophy must exist, if for no other reason, because bad philosophy must be answered - C.S. Lewis

I think that's a pretty broad target, but we'll give it a shot nonetheless.

It seems to me that Arminianism teaches all three.

I think the Bible says that fallen man has a will, but it's enslaved by sin, doesn't it?

Yes, it's true that God is ultimately the one who controls everything down to which neurons fire in your head, but it's also true that you are the one doing and hence responsible for your thoughts/desires/actions/beliefs/etc.

Be careful; I think you may be leaning towards determinism.

Your argument hinges on point 2--and it needs clarification. "No fallen person can will to believe anything good through his own strength."

Arminians(depending on the flavor) may then come back with something about prevenient grace and how it's really God doing it, but he does it for everybody else too, blah blah blah...

Hope this helps.

__________________
Jonathan
Audio Engineer
Reformed Anabaptist
Ohio

Moroni's magical glasses of proper interpretation:

Steven, Berkhof in his ST agrees with you (as do I). That part of faith in Christ which is mental assent is unrelated to the will. We do not will to assent to things. The actual causes of why we assent to one thing and not another are quite mysterious.

However, to be fair, I think Arminians would usually place salvation not in the believing-as-in-assenting part, but in the asking-for-forgiveness-based-on-my-belief part. That would be a voluntary act.

__________________
Charlie Johnson
Downtown Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary, student

Simply point them to the fact either Christ paid the penalty for them or He didn't. God can't punish anyone twice. So either Christ died for them or He didn't.

the only thing left is Christ didn't pay for the sin of their unbelief so they have 1 sin Christ didn't pay for, therefore they have to save themselves, they believe in works salvation, its not all of grace just most of it, and they can boast that they were smart enough to believe, and the Spirit did not blow where it wanted they called the wind to them.
And who ever pays for their sin of unbelief for all the years before they believed? Does it get canceled out by their belief, or does Christ go back in time and get crucified again to pay for that sin? And where did they get the faith to believe? Was that in them all along? Then faith is not from God.

They don't really even understand that Christ actually was punished for each and every sin and only those sins at that time. They believe in some kind of general prevenient sin payment that floats or something. They just don't know what they believe, they follow what they were told.
Like implicit faith or peer pressure faith.

Its all so anti-biblical even they will throw up. Then show them Rom 9 and some other verses and maybe God will open their eyes so they know its He who saves people and we don't save ourselves.

__________________
DonP

Yeah.....I see your point. Many arminians, however, often don't understand what they are actually saying when they make such statements, and perhaps may not always mean what they say if it is pointed out to them.

Another example comes to mind to support your point: I don't simply choose to believe or not believe in gravity. Rather, my understanding is enlightened to where I become convinced of it's reality.

Blessings!

__________________
Charles Plauger
Member/Grace Reformed Church
Oakland, MD

Whether or not God is the one in control of the neurons firing in my head--which I do think he is--it seems to me is not what I was meaning to speak of. I am saying that generally (or perhaps all the time), beliefs are not willed in me. I don't will to believe 'x', I just come to believe it. Now it seems to me that Arminianism (and you agree also, I see) teaches you have the ability to will beliefs. You can 'choose' what you believe. If that is false, if I really cannot 'will' my beliefs, then Arminianism is false. That is my argument.

Ok, I see what you're saying. I don't mean that a person can't will to believe in 'S' (where 'S' is a saving belief); I mean that a person can't will to believe anything; rather, I mean that beliefs are the product of environment, experience, chemical factors, sociological factors, etc. And it seems to me they are.

Does that clear it up?

That they don't understand what they believe, and that they are inconsistent, I am fine with; (and I say this half-jokingly) I am considering the idea that any truly saved person (who isn't openly a Calvinist) is just really an inconsistent Calvinist or a crypto-Calvinist.

But let's say a person really understands what they mean when they say a person has the free will ability to will a belief. Then, I would simply argue against that.

Saving faith is not just a belief, but a complete, life-changing embracing of that belief. Intellectual assent to propositions is totally involuntary; I agree with you on that -- but people can react differently to this intellectual assent, either rebelliously and in self-deception, or penitently. And that reaction is an aspect of the will.

Of course, to say that we have free will over the reaction (rather than compatibilist freedom) is another story...

-----Added 3/28/2009 at 12:31:26 EST-----

I totally agree with this.

__________________
Ben Maas. . . . .Facebook
In college, attending First Presbyterian Church (PCUSA), Ada, OH, and
Belle Center Reformed Presbyterian Church (RPCNA), Belle Center, OH
When at home, attending Covenant Presbyterian Church (OPC), Mansfield, OH

“Prayer is as natural an expression of faith as breathing is of life.”
-Jonathan Edwards-

The will comes into play in the decision. The fact that a thought comes into my head to believe in God or to not believe may not be from my will.
But to act on the thought is an act of my will.
That is why God holds us responsible. To decide to believe or to decide and not believe and act according to our belief.
So if I understand you clearly, I disagree with the philosophical hyperbole.

We do will. Our will is free within the limit of our nature. And yet we are held accountable for the decision regardless. We are not punished because we can't believe, but because we won't believe.
If we were unable to believe, even because of the fall, we would not have personal responsibility. But God says we do. Won't is Will Not as in John 5:40
40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. NKJV

So careful there that you do not remove ability and volition.

As for all Arminains being confused, I think the many ignorant ones may be and some of them may be unsaved. But ministers and those who call themselves Teacher should know better and are held to a higher standard.
I know many who will clearly say if God chooses and we have no choice I would hate that God and will have no God like that.

I am not sure this is a fruit of definitive sanctification resulting from conversion and saving faith. Saving faith implies a belief in something. What is it one must believe to be saved or to manifest that regeneration and faith has been imparted to them, is a good question we may differ on. I think at minimum we should be willing to have God however He is not only as we want Him to be. And we would not hate the true God.

John 10:27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me NKJV

John 10:4...the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers. NKJV

This concerns me for Arminians who hear the truth and reject it

[quote=steven-nemes;582474]
A belief comes from the heart. You only believe that which your heart desires. Man by his very nature is evil; therefore, he only believes that which is evil, unless, you have been changed by the Holy Spirit. Then you can do no other then believe that which God wills. Therefore you are "willed" to believe that which is contrary to your nature, i.e. putting your faith in the gospel of Christ.

__________________
Andrew Cunningham
From:Reno, NV Currently: San Deigo, Camp pendleton
Attending:seeking a church in San Diego area
"by His scourging we are healed" Isaiah 53:5
"Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin" Psalm 51:2