Any Reidians out there?

Ivanhoe · #1 (**permalink**) 10-02-2007, 08:14 PM

I just purchased N. Wolterstorff's Thomas Reid and the Ethics of Belief (or something like that). I like Wolterstorrf's other works so this looks good.

Semper Fidelis · #2 (**permalink**) 10-03-2007, 01:11 AM

It's funny you should bring that up. I've been thinking about starting a thread on this at some point. I wouldn't want to say for sure but I think Rev. Winzer might be a Common Sense Realist. I noted recently that when I read Dabney's The Sensualistic Philosophy that he sounded like a Van Tillian in the way he internally critiqued naturalistic philosophy.

I started wondering why Bahnsen thought the philosophy was all gooned up and then I was listening to Frame recently and he stated that Van Til was convinced that this philosophy ended up nearly destroying Reformed Theology at Princeton and that Hodge was a big time Common Sense Realist as well as many who came after him.

I sometimes wonder if the "simple-minded", intuitive philosophy isn't relaly a good philosophy after all. I know Frame and Bahnsen don't like it but, it seems to me that the reason they don't like it is because it violates the "rules" of what good philosophy is. Yet, at the same time, if you listen to them review the history of human philosophy there are no good comprehensive human philosophies out there. It seems that Van Tillians, in the end, can demonstrate that every human philosophy fails but then cannot replace a systematic philosophy in its place except a fairly intuitive variety that seems very Common Sense Realism to me.

I wonder, then, why do we constantly want to construct what human philosophers would consider a "sound philosophy" when their rules on what constitutes truth all lead to incoherence? In other words, they have no metaphysic, ethic, or epistemology to offer but the rules they establish are then turned around to judge the validity of an intutitive system based on what man knows being a thinking, created being.

I don't know if what I said makes sense but I'd love to interact more on it.

armourbearer · #3 (**permalink**) 10-03-2007, 01:40 AM

Yes, I'm a common sense realist; they call us foundationalists these days. Whether that makes me a Reidian, I don't know. Reid was a bit of a moderate, if I remember correctly. I'd certainly distance myself from that. I think the problem with Hodge and Princeton was not the realism but the inductivist approach to science and theology. Van Til corrected this with the Kuyperian emphasis on antithesis. The benefit of realism is its insistence that the a priori ability to know is itself knowledge. This is presuppositionalism.

Ivanhoe · #4 (**permalink**) 10-03-2007, 08:13 AM

The title of the book was John Locke and the Ethics of Belief; Wolterstorff wrote another book by the same title with Thoma Reid.

I had to study intensely for my apologetics final with Frame and we dealt with this. I found it interesting, if frustrating at times. A lot of good things but...

Jim_Johnston · #5 (**permalink**) 10-03-2007, 11:00 AM

The below isn't necessarily an endorsement of Bahnsen (and Frame's to a lesser extent) position, but an explanation of his position. Wether they are/were right or wrong isn't my motive. I'll also make some comments of my own that have nothing to do with Bahnsen or Frame and the debate.

Quote:

I started wondering why Bahnsen thought the philosophy was all gooned up and then I was listening to Frame recently and he stated that Van Til was convinced that this philosophy ended up nearly destroying Reformed Theology at Princeton and that Hodge was a big time Common Sense Realist as well as many who came after him.

It wasn't the philosophy per se, but rather the autonomous employment of it. I don't think Bahnsen or Frame have a big problem appealing to CS within a Christian framework. Afterall, Bahnsen says, "If you're not God, how do you know what is 'common' to all men, or creation, etc?"

Perhaps CSR got a bad rap because it was once used to argue for God via design in nature vis a viz Paley, and then CSR was appealed to in order to argue for "design" by natural mselection and descent with modification. Indeed, Warfield was a theistic evolutionist and Hodge, even though he wrote the book "What is darwinism," concluding, "It is Atheism," had leanings in the macro-evolution direction.

Quote:

I sometimes wonder if the "simple-minded", intuitive philosophy isn't relaly a good philosophy after all.

a) I wouldn't call it "simple minded." Have you read Reid, or his modern day defenders?

b) Intuitions are falen too. It's fine to appeal to them as far as it goes, but not as a standard. And, many things that do seem "intuitive" are flat out false. So, I have no problem appealing to intuition, but then, neither does the physicalist who says that it's just intuitively obvious that non-physical entities can't cause thing to happen in the physical world. Where does the energy come from, after all?

Quote:

I know Frame and Bahnsen don't like it but, it seems to me that the reason they don't like it is because it violates the "rules" of what good philosophy is.

I wouldn't say that. Charitably, they don't like an autonomous appeal to CSR outside the Christian worldview. Seems to me that Bahnsen and Frame break the "rules" of what constitutes "good philosophy," all the time. Secular philosophers have said of them, "They're doing theology, not philosophy."

Quote:

Yet, at the same time, if you listen to them review the history of human philosophy there are no good comprehensive human philosophies out there. It seems that Van Tillians, in the end, can demonstrate that every human philosophy fails but then cannot replace a systematic philosophy in its place except a fairly intuitive variety that seems very Common Sense Realism to me.

a) Every autonomous philosophical system.

b) they "replace" them with "the Christian worldview." Now, this latter phrase may have its problems, but my point is that they have at least attemtped to "put something out there." So, they have, according to them, a distinctively Christian metaphysic, epistemology, and ethic. This is not "fairly intuitive."

Having said all this, I am a fan of CSR and find it a valuable weapon to include in an overall worldview.

I would agree with Rev. Winzer that we can "just know" some things without having to be able to "give an account" for that knowledge, i.e., have "access to" the justifying reasons for our beliefs. I'd also agree with the particularist approach to epistemology CSRs take.

Jim_Johnston · #6 (**permalink**) 10-03-2007, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spear Dane

The title of the book was John Locke and the Ethics of Belief; Wolterstorff wrote another book by the same title with Thoma Reid.

The title of the book on Reid was "Thomas Reid and the Story of Epistemology."

Ivanhoe · #7 (**permalink**) 10-03-2007, 12:15 PM

And I can't wait to read Wolterstorff. He is a very competent thinker and no doubt will make a good case. I also don't ahve problems with using both Bahnsen/Frame on one level, and the CSR on another.

CatechumenPatrick · #8 (**permalink**) 10-03-2007, 01:00 PM

On this topic, does anyone know of some good Reformed critiques on CSR, Reid, or its contemporary defenders? Perhaps specific works or essays by Frame, Bahsen, or Van Til? Thanks

Ivanhoe · #9 (**permalink**) 10-03-2007, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CatechumenPatrick

On this topic, does anyone know of some good Reformed critiques on CSR, Reid, or its contemporary defenders? Perhaps specific works or essays by Frame, Bahsen, or Van Til? Thanks

Scott Oliphant, in Reasons for Faith, makes the argument that Common-sense couldn't tell us what common sense is. I have to read more on that before I make an argument.

armourbearer · #10 (**permalink**) 10-03-2007, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spear Dane

Scott Oliphant, in Reasons for Faith, makes the argument that Common-sense couldn't tell us what common sense is. I have to read more on that before I make an argument.

That's actually a good criticism. But the fact is, I can't tell you alot of things with respect to how you and I communicate over the internet, and yet we do it nonetheless -- common sense! Someone might try to create an idealist gap between what we both experience, like Hume did; and yet our very discussion of this gap would still require a common experience. As far as I can see, CSR reflects our creaturehood.

Semper Fidelis · #11 (**permalink**) 10-03-2007, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

The below isn't necessarily an endorsement of Bahnsen (and Frame's to a lesser extent) position, but an explanation of his position. Wether they are/were right or wrong isn't my motive. I'll also make some comments of my own that have nothing to do with Bahnsen or Frame and the debate.

Quote:

I started wondering why Bahnsen thought the philosophy was all gooned up and then I was listening to Frame recently and he stated that Van Til was convinced that this philosophy ended up nearly destroying Reformed Theology at Princeton and that Hodge was a big time Common Sense Realist as well as many who came after him.

It wasn't the philosophy per se, but rather the autonomous employment of it. I don't think Bahnsen or Frame have a big problem appealing to CS within a Christian framework. Afterall, Bahnsen says, "If you're not God, how do you know what is 'common' to all men, or creation, etc?"

Perhaps CSR got a bad rap because it was once used to argue for God via design in nature vis a viz Paley, and then CSR was appealed to in order to argue for "design" by natural mselection and descent with modification. Indeed, Warfield was a theistic evolutionist and Hodge, even though he wrote the book "What is darwinism," concluding, "It is Atheism," had leanings in the macro-evolution direction.

Quote:

I sometimes wonder if the "simple-minded", intuitive philosophy isn't relaly a good philosophy after all.

a) I wouldn't call it "simple minded." Have you read Reid, or his modern day defenders?

b) Intuitions are falen too. It's fine to appeal to them as far as it goes, but not as a standard. And, many things that do seem "intuitive" are flat out false. So, I have no problem appealing to intuition, but then, neither does the physicalist who says that it's just intuitively obvious that non-physical entities can't cause thing to happen in the physical world. Where does the energy come from, after all?

Quote:

I know Frame and Bahnsen don't like it but, it seems to me that the reason they don't like it is because it violates the "rules" of what good philosophy is.

I wouldn't say that. Charitably, they don't like an autonomous appeal to CSR outside the Christian worldview. Seems to me that Bahnsen and Frame break the "rules" of what constitutes "good philosophy," all the time. Secular philosophers have said of them, "They're doing theology, not philosophy."

Quote:

Yet, at the same time, if you listen to them review the history of human philosophy there are no good comprehensive human philosophies out there. It seems that Van Tillians, in the end, can demonstrate that every human philosophy fails but then cannot replace a systematic philosophy in its place except a fairly intuitive variety that seems very Common Sense Realism to me.

a) Every autonomous philosophical system.

b) they "replace" them with "the Christian worldview." Now, this latter phrase may have its problems, but my point is that they have at least attemtped to "put something out there." So, they have, according to them, a distinctively Christian metaphysic, epistemology, and ethic. This is not "fairly intuitive."

Having said all this, I am a fan of CSR and find it a valuable weapon to include in an overall worldview.

I would agree with Rev. Winzer that we can "just know" some things without having to be able to "give an account" for that knowledge, i.e., have "access to" the justifying reasons for our beliefs. I'd also agree with the particularist approach to epistemology CSRs take.

Thanks Paul. I'm particularly glad you noted the last part. I was pretty sloppy in some of my terms. I completly agree that fallen intuition can be a bad thing. Believe it or not, I usually criticize most people that say they rely on "common sense" because they're usually the people that don't like to study. I still remember a girl in high school who was a year older than me at my first job in 1984 (age 16). She was boasting that she had dropped out of school and that everything she learned, she learned on the street. I thought: "Well, I want more than a job at Burger King so I think I'll go the book learning route."

My point about Van Til was not to criticize his approach because I do find that what it seems to do is rigorously approach Philosophy but, in the end, it does seem to come down to a simple sense that we are created in God's Image and that the sheep hear His voice. I had heard that Reid was actually big time into free will and not much of a Presbyterian so I wasn't advocating an intuitive common sense. I assume you've read Dabney but his version of CSR seems very solid.

Anyway, I just feel a tension in the philosophical discussions to pull the train into philosophical rules. Not that all philosophical rules are bad but it does strike me that philosophy's goodness or badness is judged on the same principles that could not be worked into a systematic presentation that stood on their own unless God be presumed.

So I wonder, then, about whether a grand system of all thought could be constructed like Aquinas attempted but on Reformed presups. I've heard it criticized here that Van Til never had a full systematic philosophy that encompassed all knowledge. I sometimes think: "So what?" but maybe there is something more to that.

All I know is that the moment that philosophers start to go in directions of the idealist or the empericist that denies the very things that are as obvious to me as the nose on my face, there is enough CSR in me to say: "Go sell crazy somewhere else" even if I'm not equipped to argue the point in a philosophicallly capable manner.

Does that make any sense at all?

Ivanhoe · #12 (**permalink**) 10-03-2007, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SemperFideles

So I wonder, then, about whether a grand system of all thought could be constructed like Aquinas attempted but on Reformed presups. I've heard it criticized here that Van Til never had a full systematic philosophy that encompassed all knowledge. I sometimes think: "So what?" but maybe there is something more to that.

I tried that once. It was a lot of fun but it was harder than I thought. Time and money ran out. I might try to develop a system later on. Like writing a book entitled Epistemology and the War on the Dragon god. I would combine 2 Corinthians 10:5 with Revelation 15:3-5. Epistemology was the weapon used to kill the dragon god.

Jim_Johnston · #13 (**permalink**) 10-03-2007, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SemperFideles

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

The below isn't necessarily an endorsement of Bahnsen (and Frame's to a lesser extent) position, but an explanation of his position. Wether they are/were right or wrong isn't my motive. I'll also make some comments of my own that have nothing to do with Bahnsen or Frame and the debate.

Quote:

I started wondering why Bahnsen thought the philosophy was all gooned up and then I was listening to Frame recently and he stated that Van Til was convinced that this philosophy ended up nearly destroying Reformed Theology at Princeton and that Hodge was a big time Common Sense Realist as well as many who came after him.

It wasn't the philosophy per se, but rather the autonomous employment of it. I don't think Bahnsen or Frame have a big problem appealing to CS within a Christian framework. Afterall, Bahnsen says, "If you're not God, how do you know what is 'common' to all men, or creation, etc?"

Perhaps CSR got a bad rap because it was once used to argue for God via design in nature vis a viz Paley, and then CSR was appealed to in order to argue for "design" by natural mselection and descent with modification. Indeed, Warfield was a theistic evolutionist and Hodge, even though he wrote the book "What is darwinism," concluding, "It is Atheism," had leanings in the macro-evolution direction.

a) I wouldn't call it "simple minded." Have you read Reid, or his modern day defenders?

b) Intuitions are falen too. It's fine to appeal to them as far as it goes, but not as a standard. And, many things that do seem "intuitive" are flat out false. So, I have no problem appealing to intuition, but then, neither does the physicalist who says that it's just intuitively obvious that non-physical entities can't cause thing to happen in the physical world. Where does the energy come from, after all?

I wouldn't say that. Charitably, they don't like an autonomous appeal to CSR outside the Christian worldview. Seems to me that Bahnsen and Frame break the "rules" of what constitutes "good philosophy," all the time. Secular philosophers have said of them, "They're doing theology, not philosophy."

Quote:

Yet, at the same time, if you listen to them review the history of human philosophy there are no good comprehensive human philosophies out there. It seems that Van Tillians, in the end, can demonstrate that every human philosophy fails but then cannot replace a systematic philosophy in its place except a fairly intuitive variety that seems very Common Sense Realism to me.

a) Every autonomous philosophical system.

b) they "replace" them with "the Christian worldview." Now, this latter phrase may have its problems, but my point is that they have at least attemtped to "put something out there." So, they have, according to them, a distinctively Christian metaphysic, epistemology, and ethic. This is not "fairly intuitive."

Having said all this, I am a fan of CSR and find it a valuable weapon to include in an overall worldview.

I would agree with Rev. Winzer that we can "just know" some things without having to be able to "give an account" for that knowledge, i.e., have "access to" the justifying reasons for our beliefs. I'd also agree with the particularist approach to epistemology CSRs take.

Thanks Paul. I'm particularly glad you noted the last part. I was pretty sloppy in some of my terms. I completly agree that fallen intuition can be a bad thing. Believe it or not, I usually criticize most people that say they rely on "common sense" because they're usually the people that don't like to study. I still remember a girl in high school who was a year older than me at my first job in 1984 (age 16). She was boasting that she had dropped out of school and that everything she learned, she learned on the street. I thought: "Well, I want more than a job at Burger King so I think I'll go the book learning route."

My point about Van Til was not to criticize his approach because I do find that what it seems to do is rigorously approach Philosophy but, in the end, it does seem to come down to a simple sense that we are created in God's Image and that the sheep hear His voice. I had heard that Reid was actually big time into free will and not much of a Presbyterian so I wasn't advocating an intuitive common sense. I assume you've read Dabney but his version of CSR seems very solid.

Anyway, I just feel a tension in the philosophical discussions to pull the train into philosophical rules. Not that all philosophical rules are bad but it does strike me that philosophy's goodness or badness is judged on the same principles that could not be worked into a systematic presentation that stood on their own unless God be presumed.

So I wonder, then, about whether a grand system of all thought could be constructed like Aquinas attempted but on Reformed presups. I've heard it criticized here that Van Til never had a full systematic philosophy that encompassed all knowledge. I sometimes think: "So what?" but maybe there is something more to that.

All I know is that the moment that philosophers start to go in directions of the idealist or the empericist that denies the very things that are as obvious to me as the nose on my face, there is enough CSR in me to say: "Go sell crazy somewhere else" even if I'm not equipped to argue the point in a philosophicallly capable manner.

Does that make any sense at all?

Everyone does philosophy, not everyone does it well.

Van Til was breaking ground, can't do everything. Other people need to step up too. And, in one sense, it didn't begin with Van Til. He said he was standing on the shoulders of giants.

I'd say that we have many of the pieces of w worked wout worldview. The problem is, it's all over the place. Problem is, some people are just looking at a Bahnsen, or a Frame, and not looking at a Helm, or a Plantinga, or a Alston, or even a Moreland, or a Craig, or a x, y, z.

But, if you chose to live under a rock, your worked out philosophy will be about as sharp as a rock. if you're a right wing presuppositinalist "homer," well then you'll never let go of that old pitcher, or the tired quaterback, and you'll keep losing games while ignoring the pain because you are still living in the glory days of that big win (or, perhaps, of that Bahnsen/Stein debate...which, may not even be able to be classified as a big win. Doesn't take much for a philosopher to make some dude who wrote his dissertation on the maturation of ovaries in Japanese quail to look stupid!).

Ivanhoe · #14 (**permalink**) 10-03-2007, 09:49 PM

Kind of what Paul said. I owe Bahnsen and Van Til so much. But I also started reading Craig, Moreland, and Wolterstorrf. I had a number of questions about some of their positions, but I found their stuff too good to just write off.

On one hand I don't want to just mix and match all systems, but I also don't think I need to live and die in terms of one system. And that was one of Frame's points in his apologetics class. These guys (Bahnsen, Clark, Plantiga, Pratt) all say good things, but they all make mistakes. Part of the excitement in doing philosophy is to find out pros and cons in these thinkers and seeing how you would incorporate that into your apologetics.

my two cents. Deo Volente, next time I am at RTS Jackson I plan to buy out all the Plantinga and Wolterstorff stuff there.

Semper Fidelis · #15 (**permalink**) 10-03-2007, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

Everyone does philosophy, not everyone does it well.

Yes, I know, Dr. Bahn...er...Dr. Frame...er...Paul. I agree.

Quote:

Van Til was breaking ground, can't do everything. Other people need to step up too. And, in one sense, it didn't begin with Van Til. He said he was standing on the shoulders of giants.

I'd say that we have many of the pieces of w worked wout worldview. The problem is, it's all over the place. Problem is, some people are just looking at a Bahnsen, or a Frame, and not looking at a Helm, or a Plantinga, or a Alston, or even a Moreland, or a Craig, or a x, y, z.

I want it to be a Manata that does it Baby!

Quote:

But, if you chose to live under a rock, your worked out philosophy will be about as sharp as a rock.

I agree. I wasn't trying to be a rock. I'm trying to figure out where the wheat and chaff are. There's a lot of chaff in philosophy. It's not that I don't enjoy pushing my brain hard. Part of me thinks, though, that as much as I like Frame, I wonder if some of his tendency to go off the reservation at times is linked to his desire to be a good philosopher based on the wrong standards of philosophy. I'd rather not have something driving me into corners of thought that seem "responsible" to my mind if, in fact, they end up being dark corners in the end. I say that with respect for Dr. Frame because I've read his major works and benefitted greatly from him. I just think he tends to speculate a bit much.

Quote:

if you're a right wing presuppositinalist "homer," well then you'll never let go of that old pitcher, or the tired quaterback, and you'll keep losing games while ignoring the pain because you are still living in the glory days of that big win (or, perhaps, of that Bahnsen/Stein debate...which, may not even be able to be classified as a big win. Doesn't take much for a philosopher to make some dude who wrote his dissertation on the maturation of ovaries in Japanese quail to look stupid!).

Gordon Stein anyone?

You know, I still chuckle to myself about that interaction every now and again. Stein was dumb enough to respond: "Well, Bahnsen's thesis was on the epistemology of self-deception (or something like that) and I don't see what that has to do with this debate...." I was thinking: "Are you kidding?!" Quail ovaries vs. a guy that studies why people deceive themselves in a discussion about God!

Jim_Johnston · #16 (**permalink**) 10-03-2007, 10:16 PM

Quote:

I want it to be a Manata that does it Baby!

Maybe one of my perfect, sinless, saved and regenerate from the womb covenant children that can do no wrong and come out of the womb with the catechism memorized, baby!

(I thought my baptist brothers would find that funny.)

Anyway, I know that you're not advocating anti-intelelctualism. I'm just using "you" in an editorial sense.

I wouldn't attribute any of the perceived problems with Frame as due to trying to live up to some impersonal standard of philosophy. And, if we're going to be charitable, what drives him is his committment to scripture. If he thinks scripture says something he'll take his stand there, all night long. If he doesn't think scriputre is clear, he'll try to call off the dogs from hunting "heretics" down and bloodying them for all to see. Right or wrong, that's where I see Frame's heart at, and his driving motive - presuppositional committment to the triune God of scripture.

Semper Fidelis · #17 (**permalink**) 10-03-2007, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

Quote:

I want it to be a Manata that does it Baby!

Maybe one of my perfect, sinless, saved and regenerate from the womb covenant children that can do no wrong and come out of the womb with the catechism memorized, baby!

Anyway, I know that you're not advocating anti-intelelctualism. I'm just using "you" in an editorial sense.

I wouldn't attribute any of the perceived problems with Frame as due to trying to live up to some impersonal standard of philosophy. And, if we're going to be charitable, what drives him is his committment to scripture. If he thinks scripture says something, he'll take his stand there all night long. If he doesn't think scriputre is clear, he'll try to call off the dogs from hunting "heretics" down and bloodying them for all to see. Right or wrong, that's where I see Frame's heart at, and his driving motive - presuppositional committment to the triune God of scripture.

Fair enough. I don't question his desire or place him in the category of the arrogant but it's hard to figure out where he is on some things.

Ivanhoe · #18 (**permalink**) 10-03-2007, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SemperFideles

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Bombadil

Quote:

I want it to be a Manata that does it Baby!

Maybe one of my perfect, sinless, saved and regenerate from the womb covenant children that can do no wrong and come out of the womb with the catechism memorized, baby!

Anyway, I know that you're not advocating anti-intelelctualism. I'm just using "you" in an editorial sense.

I wouldn't attribute any of the perceived problems with Frame as due to trying to live up to some impersonal standard of philosophy. And, if we're going to be charitable, what drives him is his committment to scripture. If he thinks scripture says something, he'll take his stand there all night long. If he doesn't think scriputre is clear, he'll try to call off the dogs from hunting "heretics" down and bloodying them for all to see. Right or wrong, that's where I see Frame's heart at, and his driving motive - presuppositional committment to the triune God of scripture.

Fair enough. I don't question his desire or place him in the category of the arrogant but it's hard to figure out where he is on some things.

I must be the oddball out. My pastor was a student of Frame (and a good friend of his) and made the same observation. I have yet to see Frame, however, make weird statements (but this is coming from someone who wanted to write a book dealing with epistemology and dragon gods,

)