Anyone seen this? http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com/

The deduction, in brief, is as follows:

A) God heals physical ailments
B) But no amputee has ever had a limb restored
Ergo,
C) God does not want to heal amputees

I guess the guy is going for a reductio ad absurdum, but it doesn't seem to work. However, it made me think about my view of how God works in regard to healing, at this point in history. Is it inconsistent to say "God healed that person of cancer" but not at the same time believe and pray for that he can restore a limb?

peace
joel

__________________
Joel Batts
Christ Presbyterian Church (PCA) - Memphis, TN

"Why wasn't God watching? Why wasn't God listening? Why wasn't God there for Georgia Lee?"
- Tom Waits
But you, O God, do see trouble and grief;you consider it to take it in hand. The victim commits himself to you; you are the helper of the fatherless. - Psalm 10:14

I asked this question awhile back.

Here was the response

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Scott - Dallas, Texas - PCA

"It is not what a lawyer tells me I may do; but what humanity, reason, and justice tell me I ought to do." - Edmund Burke

It doesn't seem like anyone on that thread responded to the argument you posted from the site.

I think the statements in Scripture that hold prayer as being able to move mountains, etc. need to be reckoned with to effectively answer the gist of the argument. Otherwise we aren't taking the whole of the Bible into account to respond. I'm not saying that the author of such a website is presuppositionally ready to deal with the whole Bible, just that we should try to respond in a way that shows we take the whole counsel of God seriously.

Thoughts?

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Joel Batts
Christ Presbyterian Church (PCA) - Memphis, TN

"Why wasn't God watching? Why wasn't God listening? Why wasn't God there for Georgia Lee?"
- Tom Waits
But you, O God, do see trouble and grief;you consider it to take it in hand. The victim commits himself to you; you are the helper of the fatherless. - Psalm 10:14

The real question is why won't Benny Hinn and company heal amputees?

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
Member of TRBC, Attending CCRPC. My Blog
The Puritan Pub (Team Blog)
Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Why doesn't God heal hemmorhoids? In the history of the world, it is never recorded that God has healed anyone from hemmorhoids.

Probably because miracles were never too frequent.

Also, the blind and lame and demon possessed had symbolic value as representative of the devil's work or human ability.

Also, God DID raise the dead, a thing far exceeding raising a limb. But, all sorts of miracles have seemed to cease nowadays. This is not a problem of the power of God but only a product of us living in this Last Time, when the Word of God should be sufficient.



If Jesus is all loving, why - out of all the crowds - did he heal only a few people. Probably 90% or better went unhealed.

What a cruel God that many could envision if we place an obligation that God act according to our rules.




Of course the websites makes some good points: Why does the divorce rates for Christians versus non-Christians equal one another in the States:

Either two answers are really possible; () Christianity has no power, or (2) American Christianity has no power.

I choose the latter. The Western mild form of easy beleivism makes the church and the world indistinguishable. In fact, these statistics that the website show are, indeed, proofs that America is not a Christian nation and the Gospel prevalent nowadays has no effects.


Here in West Jawa huge numbers of Muslims get divorced. As do some of the nominals Christians. But, by and large the serious and consistent Christians all have solid family lives in contrast to the culture around them. The atheists on that website are attacking Western Christianity, not Christianity at large. In pagans realms Christians are a light on top of a hill. Their behavior visibly surpasses others'.


We must always destinguish between generic religon versus Christianity or else all arguments of the atheists will win:

-Who was responsible for Crusades, inquisitions, foot binding, Jihad, massacres, sutti, decption.....religion. Religion in general is an evil thing.

-In the 20th Century who is responsible for mass murders and genocide and political oppression.....irreligion and atheism (which is really the worship of the State)...

--Who helped end foot binding, slavery, sutti in India, and who helps poverty relief, diseased babies from being killed in Irian Jaya, prevents temple prostition in India....?........ Christian workers and the Christian faith.


Also, suppose we picked 10,000 folks at random and did a study of the effects of prayer on dying patients with cancer. First, God in his will has decreed this cancer and Second, we have 10,000 Jews, Muslims, nominal church goers and religionists of all types praying for one of the blind-study groups. This proves nothing unless all religionists are assumed to be praying to the correct God.

False religion is just as uneffective as false non-religion.

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

No...the real question is should we thank God for the healing of a cancer and never pray for the restoration of a limb.

I appreciate the jab at Hinn, but I seriously want to know some thoughts on this.

__________________
Joel Batts
Christ Presbyterian Church (PCA) - Memphis, TN

"Why wasn't God watching? Why wasn't God listening? Why wasn't God there for Georgia Lee?"
- Tom Waits
But you, O God, do see trouble and grief;you consider it to take it in hand. The victim commits himself to you; you are the helper of the fatherless. - Psalm 10:14

Forgive me. The only reason I put in this thread is because a link was directed to the other discussion. Wasn't intended to sidetrack the thread.

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
Member of TRBC, Attending CCRPC. My Blog
The Puritan Pub (Team Blog)
Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

"Why doesn't get heal hemmorhoids? In the history of the world, it is never recorded that God has healed anyone from hemmorhoids."

"Probably because miracles were never too frequent."

I agree. But premise one of the argument (see above) needs to be addressed. Does God heal people of cancer today? If yes, why does he not heal amputees?

What the website is getting at is that believers are quick to thank God for cures that are not directly empirically verifiable, while not praying for healing in instances where is would be (ie, amputees).

Thoughts?

__________________
Joel Batts
Christ Presbyterian Church (PCA) - Memphis, TN

"Why wasn't God watching? Why wasn't God listening? Why wasn't God there for Georgia Lee?"
- Tom Waits
But you, O God, do see trouble and grief;you consider it to take it in hand. The victim commits himself to you; you are the helper of the fatherless. - Psalm 10:14

OK Josh...this is one of those issues that has been gnawing at me and I was a little too harsh in my response to you!

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Joel Batts
Christ Presbyterian Church (PCA) - Memphis, TN

"Why wasn't God watching? Why wasn't God listening? Why wasn't God there for Georgia Lee?"
- Tom Waits
But you, O God, do see trouble and grief;you consider it to take it in hand. The victim commits himself to you; you are the helper of the fatherless. - Psalm 10:14

My thoughts is they're worried about the wrong thing. They're evading the point that God is not obligated to heal, period. God is not obligated to do anything, period. Other than being consistent with Himself and His promises (which by the way were not borne of compulsion, but His own good pleasure), the Lord is not in any way obligated to serve mankind, whether it be healing, saving, showing mercy, condemning, etc.

They need to forget about this ridiculous sidestep and deal with the condition of man, which, if God is so inclined, he may grant repentance from: Total Depravity.

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
Member of TRBC, Attending CCRPC. My Blog
The Puritan Pub (Team Blog)
Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Cancer is a disease. Being amputated is not.

Amputation is a handicap, but not a disease. Apples and Oranges.

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
Member of TRBC, Attending CCRPC. My Blog
The Puritan Pub (Team Blog)
Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

If He's so inclined, for His own good purpose
Says who?
"The Lord gives. The Lord takes away. Blessed be the Name of the Lord!"

-Job

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
Member of TRBC, Attending CCRPC. My Blog
The Puritan Pub (Team Blog)
Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

If it is granted that God still performs miraculous feats, then why doesn't God also raise people from the dead nowadays? Why doesn't He part the Red Sea again? If they are granted as appropriate to this age, we must ask this questions of EVERY type of miracle, not just the medical.


Also, cancer is a progressive disease in many cases. The cells often regularly morph, grow , move. It is still "in process" so to speak. There is no "morphing" growing or anything "in process" if you cut off your leg with a power tool.

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Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

So, God DOES or DOES NOT heal today? I know God is sovereign over all, but I am talking about how we should be praying...should we pray for healing or just that those who do not belong to Christ would come to him through the suffering and those who do belong to him should be sanctified....or should we pray for physical healing...both?

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Joel Batts
Christ Presbyterian Church (PCA) - Memphis, TN

"Why wasn't God watching? Why wasn't God listening? Why wasn't God there for Georgia Lee?"
- Tom Waits
But you, O God, do see trouble and grief;you consider it to take it in hand. The victim commits himself to you; you are the helper of the fatherless. - Psalm 10:14

I don't know Joel...how do you interpret the passage in James about the annointing with oil?




I think that God has already authenticated his Word so that healing is not to be expected in our age. The NT is written.

God's miracles where not just to help people but to authenticate the message or the messaenger. These both have come... thus, no more miracles are to be expected. Sure He CAN do it, but what historically redemptive purpose would it serve? DOES He still do it..I don't know.

Plus, aside from being dead (or maybe having a leg cut off) most diseases can be cured without a miracle but only through providiential blessings of docters, medicine, and sometimes stragne twists of providence that - though weird - is not neccessarily miraculous.

A miracle, after all, must go against nature. If cancer cells ebb and flow naturally and morph and die naturally sometimes, then no miracle is needed for a providential disapearance or alteration to occur.

__________________
Pergamum


"If a commission by an earthly king is considered a honor, how can a commission by a Heavenly King be considered a sacrifice?"
-- David Livingstone

I suppose you may pray for whatever you like, so long as it's for the right reason: God's glory.

__________________
Josh Hicks, Chloë's Daddy
Member of TRBC, Attending CCRPC. My Blog
The Puritan Pub (Team Blog)
Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

OK...so perhaps the first premise is the one that is incorrect. Since miracles are bound up with redemptive history, and the canon is closed, we should not be praying for healing in the sense of a miraculous healing. Having thought about it further based on what you and Josh are saying, perhaps the reason the reformed catechisms have nothing to say about expecting miralces is that what we should really be concerned about is "what is my only comfort in life and in death".

I'll keep plugging away at thinking through this...really appreciate the time you have both taken.

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Joel Batts
Christ Presbyterian Church (PCA) - Memphis, TN

"Why wasn't God watching? Why wasn't God listening? Why wasn't God there for Georgia Lee?"
- Tom Waits
But you, O God, do see trouble and grief;you consider it to take it in hand. The victim commits himself to you; you are the helper of the fatherless. - Psalm 10:14

Why doesn't God heal baldness? I'm 23 and so far am enjoying a delightful head of hair but some of my peers are not.

The list could go on and on and on.

__________________

Travis Speegle
Redeemer Presbyterian, PCA (Waco, Tx)
Pacific Cross Roads, PCA (Los Angeles, CA)


"When it comes to trustworthy theologians one can usually honor the rule of thumb that the deader the better."-Dr. John Hannah, DTS (of all places)

Yes, the list could go on and on. The point of the site was that Christians are quick to point to a person who is healed of cancer and say "God did it"...but nobody ever prays for an empirically verifiable event to occur. After thinking more on the input above, I think the first premise (see first post above) is the part that is flawed.


Great to have a reformed brother in LA Film School...do you know Rik Schwartwelder? Made the short film "The Least of These"...I believe he may be back now teaching at Calvin College, but he was out there in LA for awhile.

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Joel Batts
Christ Presbyterian Church (PCA) - Memphis, TN

"Why wasn't God watching? Why wasn't God listening? Why wasn't God there for Georgia Lee?"
- Tom Waits
But you, O God, do see trouble and grief;you consider it to take it in hand. The victim commits himself to you; you are the helper of the fatherless. - Psalm 10:14

I see miracles every single day, all around me. My breath, my ability to talk, laugh, pray, the fact that my body works like it should most of the time considering all the unbelievable amount of junk that is in conventional food these days, the mystery of a humans spirit and thoughts bound with flesh all working together just fine. Then upon looking outside myself...The unique growth of a tree, the design of a little blade of grass, and on and on and on and on and on....

God's handiwork is everywhere, and are all nothing short of miraculous.

To me the question is not why does God, it is a statement that God has, is, and will. All according to His pleasure and will, and ultimately, as Joshua said, for His glory.

As for me questioning God, I will put my hand upon my mouth (see sig).

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Asa Julian Myspace Blog
Grace Bible Church

Sometimes, when I see some of the worst characters in the street, I feel as if my heart must burst forth in tears of gratitude that God has never let me act as they have done! I have thought, "If God had left me alone, and had not touched me by His grace, what a great sinner I would have been!" - Charles Spurgeon

God heals physical ailments...yes. But how?

Through providentially-appropriate means such as doctors, medicine, and through God's providential but non-miraculous blessings such as certain bacterias