since there are about 6 views of apologetics which view are you?

i am presuppositional from the van til school

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Jonathan Qualls
member
christ community PCA
Clearwater, FL

I'm the same - 100% vote in the poll so far.

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T W Hopper
Member, Presbyterian Reformed Church
Currently between churches since PRC closed here - attending Crossroads Christian Church.
Canberra, Australia.

I am presuppositional.

Broadly Reformed Epistemology

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J. B. Atken
John Knox PCA
Layman, M.A. student at Louisiana College

Gordan Clark was not presuppositional, he was a Christian Rationalist.

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Daniel Ritchie
Saintfield, Northern Ireland - Queen's University, Belfast:History/Politics
Member of Dromara Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland (Covenanter)

I'm largely in-line with the mindset (and the way of approaching issues) of the Van Tillian school of thought, except that I've never been convinced of the TAG as a silver-bullet.

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Chris


A passion to know and reflect Christ by living and demonstrating the truth and richness of the historic Reformed faith

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Christopher Blum
Member of Riveroaks Reformed Presbyterian Church (PCA) in Germantown, TN
Currently attending Trinity Presbyterian Church of Northern Kentucky (PCA) in Burlington, KY

Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions?

Hrm... If existential means appealing to subjective religious experience(regeneration) as the basis for belief, then I'd be existential. Not sure if that that's the proper definition though.

Just read what existential apologetics are. Much different from what my approach.

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Andrew Clerebout
Joy Baptist Church, IFB (Westland, MI)

"Let us never forget that truth, distorted and exaggerated, can become the mother of the most dangerous heresies." - J.C. Ryle, Holiness

I am Biblical-Covenantal-Reformed Orthodox-Calvinist-Van Tilian. Honestly, I don't think Van Til reinvented the wheel here. He has more of the Reformed orthodox distinctions down (such as e.g. archetypal/ectypal distinction) than many realize. That's why I think the term/name "presuppositionalism" is not a very good one. It suggests Van Til was the founder of a new school which he wasn't. Guess what, he was Reformed!
Gordon Clark wasn't biblical/presuppositionalist. But also Schaeffer shouldn't be grouped with Van Til - too many differences. Not even John Frame should be grouped with Van Til for that matter...
Oh well, what a complicated world we live in! :-)

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Sebastian Heck
PCA & yet to be founded Reformierte Kirche Deutschland
Ph.D. candidate Westminster Theol. Seminary/Philadelphia
Church Planting in Germany
Reformation2Germany

Hello Everyone,

I voted for Presuppositional I; although, I think the poll is somewhat misleading. For instance, I think Clark is correct to understand starting points to be axiomatic. So, I am Clarkian in this sense. However, I do not believe that only and all knowledge is knowledge properly derived from the Scriptures. The key point being that there must already be knowledge of some sort prior to being able to derive anything from the Scriptures. The reason I pick Presuppostional I is because it really does attempt to start at the beginning - the presuppositions/axioms if you will. This underlies everything.

With that said, I do not think Reformed Epistemology is properly called an apologetic method, even though it can be used with an apologetic method. The reason for my thinking being this way is that Reformed apologetics is really not offensive in nature. It does not provide a reason for someone to reject 'X' and embrace Christianity. It does provide an answer why my belief in God is warranted. So, it is not fair to compare it with all of the other methods listed.

Classical apologetics is fun for me because of its philosophical basis. When one brings into apologetic the presuppositional underpinnings, then these arguments can be compelling.

Evidential apologetics is my least favorite. If one wants to use this method, they need to be on top of all the latest science and discoveries. And even then, unless they deal with the presuppositional biases they will not get far. I do appreciate those who go into this arena - especially if they are able to point out the biases on the other side.

Cumlative Case apologetics is part of evidentiary apologetics and maybe others. Again, you need to be on top of your stuff, and I absolutely enjoy reading these guys. Richard Swinburne's The Existence of God is a classic using an inductive logic based on several arguments to come up with the final conclusion that it is more likely God exists than not. Fun and fascinating. The problem with this is that you always have to be modifying the argument in some way as science continues to develop.

Existential apologetics? What's that???

In the end, I actually use a little of everything mentioned with the exception of "Existential", and the presuppositional argument underlies everything.

Brian

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Brian Bosse
Faith Community Church
Tucson, Arizona
Scientiam Dei

My views are ecclectic so I really couldn't cram myself into one camp.

I really like Francis Schaeffer but I like C.S. Lewis as well, and Sproul. So I guess that would make me just plain appologetically ecclectic.

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Donald Jacobs
Marysville. WA
Cascade Church (CRCNA)

Cum vero infirmor tunc potens sum.

How about primarily 4 but with influences from 5 and 6; and 1, 2, and 3 (and possibly 4 depending on what is meant by "existential"--but no to the irrationalism of Kierkegaard and the likes, in any case), in supplemental, later work (such as after a presuppositional groundwork has been set, perhaps in an "ad hominem" of the opponents view as Clark called it).

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Patrick Arnold
Covenant OPC, Brighton, MI
MA student in philosophy at the University of Michigan

I don't think this is true. A rationalist believes that truth can be obtained by human faculty alone. Clark believed that all knowledge depends on revelation. And his approach to revelation was completely presuppositional. Am I missing something?

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Davidius
Husband of Emilia
Member: First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham (RPCNA) - Durham, NC
Student: University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, German Literature and Classics

This may explain the old adage about Baptists being Methodists with shoes, and Presbyterians being Baptists who can read. To round out the adage, Lutherans might qualify as Presbyterians who drink to excess, and Episcopalians as Lutherans who know when to say when. - D.G. Hart

Lately I have been feeling irrational/fideistic/existential.

just kidding. I like a lot of what Van Til had to say. Read most everything he wrote, bahnsen wrote, and frame wrote. I disagree with Van Til's critiques of other apologists, though. In fact, I can show where Van Til uses the same terminology and methods as people he critiques (actually, followers of people he critiques use the same stuff as Van Til).

I don't hold to the silver bullet TAG (not many do, come to think of it).

As pertaining to a negative critique of opposing worldviews, I am definitely Van Tillian. This was Bahnsen's best arena.

I really don't know what I would at this point as to offering a positive alternative. I guess that's where the existential fideist in me arises, sort of.

Right now, if I had to offer an argument I would just say--look at this example of Beauty. Therefore, God exists (or something like that).

I'd have to agree here.

Even though RE guy Kelly James Clark contributed to Zondervan's 5 Views on Apologetics Book, Michael Sudduth told me that RE was not an apologetic *method* but that doesn't mean an RE can't have a *view* on apologetics.

In this sense, the poll is misleading....

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Regards,

J.J.
PCA
Suffix

What is this exactly: Cumlative case (cs lewis, zacharias)?

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Doug Wilson
Hemet, Ca
First Southern Baptist Church- SBC

CC guys point to a lot of individual lines of evidence, taken singularly aren't impressive but taken together are supposed to make a good case for Christianity. Its pros is that it has a lot of good names wiht it. But I am not too impressed.

Jacob,

I'd recommend this book .

It's on my wish list, so I can't tell you anything from personal experience, but it comes highly recommended from people I highly respect.

It is expensive, so here is a paper he wrote on the subject. If you like it, that may influence you to break down and purchase the loner, more rigorous (both intellectually and monetarily!) project.

When I clikc on that link it doesn't work for me, so I'll offer the non-hyperlinked version

http://www.calvin.edu/faith/resource...ce_natural.pdf

The Presups 1 has won the day.

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~Keon Garraway~ Brooklyn, NY

Love for God demonstrated by the love for our children in giving them a God centered education is the only hope for our country. by David Morrow
Pslam 71:20 [Thou], which hast shewed me great and sore troubles, shalt quicken me again, and shalt bring me up again from the depths of the earth.

I am so glad you said that!

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Donald P. Grubb
theol46@embarqmail.com

Berean Baptist Church, Mansfield, OH
Mansfield, OH

John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing.
The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

I think so. You're talking about rationalists like 'Descartes.' But he was not a Christian rationalist. That a classical rationalist thinks that all truth can be obtained by human faculty alone does not imply that a Christian rationalist would think so.

Now, this is not to say that the classification "Christian rationalist" is apropos to Clark (it may or may not be, you guys would need to debate that), it's just to say that I don't think your point serves to offer a rebutting defeater to Daniel Ritchie's claim.

Paul, the link of that book you recommended doesn't work either. What is the name of the book?

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Caleb
Trinity Baptist Church
Spokane, WA

I wonder why that was...

Amazon.com: God and Goodness: A Natural...

heh...sometimes I don't have a lot of common sense...

Caleb McWoodrow out.

I fixed the link. It just had "http://" twice in a row.

This subject is for me one of the top 3 biggest disappointments I have as a pastor in Reformedom.

That is, we spend 98% of our time (perhaps I am being too gracious, truth be known I see it more like 99.9%) discussing and debating apologetical methodologies then actually employing them in discussions with those on their way ot eternal destruction.

I'm not saying that in criticism of this thread, there is certainly a place to discuss this subject. I just hope all those who spend a lot of time discussing and arguing over this subject spend even more time dealing with unbelievers.

If I were on my presbytery's credentials committee for the examination of elder candidates, the question of "when was the last time you witnessed to an unbeliever?" would be far more important to me than "What is your apologetical methodology?" (Not that I wouldn't ask the second question.)



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