» Site Navigation | | | » Online Users: 92 | | 25 members and 67 guests | | Augusta, Backwoods Presbyterian, CaseyBessette, ChristianTrader, christianyouth, Covenant Joel, dkicklig, etexas, matthew11v25, PuritanCovenanter, py3ak, Quickened, refbaptdude, Reformingstudent, rescuedbyLove, rmdmphilosopher, TaylorOtwell, TimV | | Most users ever online was 856, 07-06-2007 at 12:19 AM. | |  | 
04-22-2008, 06:45 PM
| | Puritanboard Sophomore | | Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: London, UK
Posts: 544
Thanks: 66
Thanked 178 Times in 110 Posts
| | | Evidence of God I have been attempting to get to grips with presupositionalism and am finding it all very interesting. I am finding Van Til a bit hard to get to grips with but I did find his analysis of mans sin in eating from the tree of knowledge (in "the defence of the faith") to be jaw droppingly good.
Am I correct in saying that when a non christian says that there is no evidence of a God the presupositional Christian would counter by saying that there is clear proof of God (i.e. creation) but the non Christian does not recognise this evidence due to his own presuppositions?
__________________
Mike
London City Presbyterian Church
London
England
"Surely, we wish to be orthodox, but we must first learn what real orthodoxy is. Surely, we wish to be progressive, but we must first have a basis to progress from."
| 
04-22-2008, 07:04 PM
|  | Puritanboard Freshman | | Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada
Posts: 123
Thanks: 3
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
| | | In a nutshell, the presuppositionalist would say that the greatest proof of the existence of God is the impossibility of the contrary.
edit: and yes, the anti-theist cannot properly recognize the evidence due to his presuppositions, but it's not enough to leave it there. Otherwise, the argument for both worldviews would be at a standstill. Rather, the best question to pose is which worldview can survive an internal critique?
__________________
Vaughn Shideler
St. Andrew's Presbyterian Church
Toronto, ON, Canada
| | The Following User Says Thank You to Mathetes For This Useful Post: | | 
04-22-2008, 08:45 PM
|  | Moderator | | Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Wichita, Kansas
Posts: 3,751
Thanks: 51
Thanked 49 Times in 39 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathetes In a nutshell, the presuppositionalist would say that the greatest proof of the existence of God is the impossibility of the contrary. | This is true. The God of the Scriptures is the best explanation for the world in which we live. All other theories are impossible, and therefore can be shown to lead to contradiction (since man retains the image of God, we can show this by reducing their arguments to absurdity).
Pro 26:4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest you also be like him.
Pro 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly,
Lest he be wise in his own eyes.
__________________
Jeff Bartel
Mechanical Engineer
Member - Trinity Reformed Church - RPCNA
"To believe in the power of man in the work of regeneration is the great heresy of Rome, and from that error has come the ruin of the Church. Conversion proceeds from the grace of God alone, and the system which ascribes it partly to man and partly to God is worse than Pelagianism" (The Reformation in England (London, 1962), Vol. 1, p. 98) Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions? | 
04-22-2008, 09:26 PM
|  | Puritanboard Junior | | Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Vacaville, CA
Posts: 1,397
Thanks: 340
Thanked 94 Times in 80 Posts
| | | I wish I knew more about presuppositionalism; I am more familiar with the evidential territory.
__________________
Dan Pemberton
Vacaville, CA
Member, First Baptist Church San Luis Obispo
Formerly ABUSA (We left, so I guess that makes us American Baptists Unleashed!)
| 
04-22-2008, 09:42 PM
|  | Moderator | | Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Gambrills, MD
Posts: 6,477
Thanks: 701
Thanked 745 Times in 435 Posts
| | Quote: |
Am I correct in saying that when a non christian says that there is no evidence of a God the presupositional Christian would counter by saying that there is clear proof of God (i.e. creation) but the non Christian does not recognise this evidence due to his own presuppositions?
| I had this discussion this evening my wife. Why doesn't the unbeliever recognize the evidence of God? Two passages come to mind.
Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
1 Corinthians 2:14 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
The unbeliever is incapable of understanding "the things of the Spirit of God." This would include natural revelation. The unbeliever remains in this state unless God changes the status quo. | 
04-22-2008, 11:54 PM
|  | PB Evil Scientist...Boo! | | Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Decorah, IA
Posts: 2,531
Thanks: 62
Thanked 479 Times in 270 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by danmpem I wish I knew more about presuppositionalism; I am more familiar with the evidential territory. | Check out "Always Ready" by Bahnsen; I have long thought that was a very good presentation of a presuppositionalist approach to apologetics. Frame has a decent book, too - "Apologetics to the Glory of God", which I haven't read - and Pratt's "Every Thought Captive" is a very short introduction to the same. Finally, you have to get "The Defense of the Faith" by Van Til himself. If you really want to dig deeper, get Banshen's "Van Til's Apologetic"
__________________
Todd K. Pedlar
member, First Congregational Church, (CCCC) Cresco, IA http://semperubi.rtrc.net
"Many men, after a long conversion, see more of the workings of sin in their hearts than ever they did before or at their first conversion. Now, such men have not an increase of sin, but an increase of illumination and light" (Christopher Love)
Click to get: Board Rules -- Signature Requirements -- Suggestions? | | The Following User Says Thank You to toddpedlar For This Useful Post: | | 
04-23-2008, 03:00 AM
|  | Puritanboard Freshman | | Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada
Posts: 123
Thanks: 3
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
| | | Bahnsen's book on Van Til does a good job of summing up why and how non-Christian philosophy has not been able to harmonize universals with particulars.
At any rate, I feel that the presuppositionalist argument is very strong - the notion that, absent God, the notion of "proof" itself would be impossible. That only the existence of God can explain logic, numbers, minds, universals, particulars, infinites, etc. But I think the presuppositionalist needs to be ready to study their philosophy in depth - some have been guilty on relying on snappy answers without much depth. So if the unbeliever asks where is the proof that God is the source of logic, abstracts, etc., then you should have an answer ready. | 
04-23-2008, 03:15 AM
|  | Puritanboard Junior | | Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Vacaville, CA
Posts: 1,397
Thanks: 340
Thanked 94 Times in 80 Posts
| | Quote:
Originally Posted by toddpedlar Quote:
Originally Posted by danmpem I wish I knew more about presuppositionalism; I am more familiar with the evidential territory. | Check out "Always Ready" by Bahnsen; I have long thought that was a very good presentation of a presuppositionalist approach to apologetics. Frame has a decent book, too - "Apologetics to the Glory of God", which I haven't read - and Pratt's "Every Thought Captive" is a very short introduction to the same. Finally, you have to get "The Defense of the Faith" by Van Til himself. If you really want to dig deeper, get Banshen's "Van Til's Apologetic" | Hmm, are these books talking about apologetics, or are the authors actually apologeticizing in them? | 
04-23-2008, 03:20 AM
|  | Puritanboard Freshman | | Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada
Posts: 123
Thanks: 3
Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts
| | | Always Ready displays some interaction with the arguments of unbelievers, but the rest of them are not, as far as I know, debate-oriented. |  | | Thread Tools | | | | Display Modes | Linear Mode |
Posting Rules
| You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts HTML code is Off | | | |