Christianity and logic

Scott · #1 (**permalink**) 05-09-2006, 12:15 AM

What is a brief description of how and why Christianity supports logic?

WrittenFromUtopia · #2 (**permalink**) 05-09-2006, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scott
What is a brief description of how and why Christianity supports logic?

God created Logic and thinks in a Logical fashion. We think in a manner that is in the likeness of how God thinks, but with succession and contemplation (God does not have to think successive thoughts nor contemplate). We are to think logically and recognize that there is an invariant, transcendental universal known as "Logic" or the "Laws of Logic," as being the manner of rational thought created by God Himself.

natewood3 · #3 (**permalink**) 05-09-2006, 11:26 AM

Did God create logic or is logic part of God's eternal nature? If God created logic, was there a time when A and not-A were the same thing at the same time?

gwine · #4 (**permalink**) 05-09-2006, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by natewood3
Did God create logic or is logic part of God's eternal nature? If God created logic, was there a time when A and not-A were the same thing at the same time?

Since God is eternal there never was a time when there was God and there was not God.

Scott · #5 (**permalink**) 05-09-2006, 12:30 PM

Quote:

God created Logic and thinks in a Logical fashion. We think in a manner that is in the likeness of how God thinks, but with succession and contemplation (God does not have to think successive thoughts nor contemplate). We are to think logically and recognize that there is an invariant, transcendental universal known as "Logic" or the "Laws of Logic," as being the manner of rational thought created by God Himself.

Thanks. That is a good summary.

Why do we believe that Christianity teaches this?

WrittenFromUtopia · #6 (**permalink**) 05-09-2006, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Scott

Quote:

God created Logic and thinks in a Logical fashion. We think in a manner that is in the likeness of how God thinks, but with succession and contemplation (God does not have to think successive thoughts nor contemplate). We are to think logically and recognize that there is an invariant, transcendental universal known as "Logic" or the "Laws of Logic," as being the manner of rational thought created by God Himself.

Thanks. That is a good summary.

Why do we believe that Christianity teaches this?

Scripture is logically coherent, and does not contradict itself (contrary to Liberalism). Scripture is God's revealed Word.

Magma2 · #7 (**permalink**) 05-10-2006, 09:18 AM

Quote:

God created Logic and thinks in a Logical fashion. We think in a manner that is in the likeness of how God thinks, but with succession and contemplation (God does not have to think successive thoughts nor contemplate). We are to think logically and recognize that there is an invariant, transcendental universal known as "Logic" or the "Laws of Logic," as being the manner of rational thought created by God Himself.

If logic is created then was there a time prior to its creation when God did not think logically?

BobVigneault · #8 (**permalink**) 05-10-2006, 09:59 AM

God's thinking is best described as hyper-logic of which logic as we know it is a shadow or extenision of God's hyper-logic. Hyper-logic takes place in an infinitely multi-dimensional environment which is the mind of God. Logic was indeed created for the specific purpose of revelaton. Hyper-logic however is the reasoning of God and is pre-eternal.

I made all of this up. I'm calling dibs on 'hyper-logic'. Perhaps I'll right the book.

[Edited on 5-10-2006 by BobVigneault]

Laura · #9 (**permalink**) 05-10-2006, 10:07 AM

It seems that things get pretty messy when we say that God created logic...why not simply say that the laws of logic are like a pattern after the form in which God thinks (eternally)?

LadyFlynt · #10 (**permalink**) 05-10-2006, 10:22 AM

Is this what is meant by "reasonable soul"

Shorter Catechism Q 22
Q: How did Christ, being the Son of God, become man?
A: Christ, the Son of God, became man, by taking to himself a true body, and a reasonable soul,1 being conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost, in the womb of the Virgin Mary, and born of her,2 yet without sin.3

LadyFlynt · #11 (**permalink**) 05-10-2006, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Laura
It seems that things get pretty messy when we say that God created logic...why not simply say that the laws of logic are like a pattern after the form in which God thinks (eternally)?

Jeff_Bartel · #12 (**permalink**) 05-10-2006, 10:31 AM

Logic is "how" God thinks. He did not create it, for it is part of his nature.

We believe in logic, because the Bible is not only logical, but so are we, as creatures made in the image of God.

Job 32:8 But there is a spirit in man, And the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding.

Quote:

The Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter IV
Of Creation
II. After God had made all other creatures, he created man, male and female,[4] with reasonable and immortal souls,[5] endued with knowledge, righteousness, and true holiness, after his own image;[6] having the law of God written in their hearts,[7] and power to fulfill it:[8] and yet under a possibility of transgressing, being left to the liberty of their own will, which was subject unto change.[9] Beside this law written in their hearts, they received a command, not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; which while they kept, they were happy in their communion with God,[10] and had dominion over the creatures.[11]

4. Gen 1:27
5. Gen. 2:7; Eccl. 12:7; Luke 23:43; Matt. 10:28
6. Gen. 1:26; Col. 3:10; Eph. 4:24
7. Rom. 2:14-15
8. Gen. 2:17; Eccl. 7:29
9. Gen. 3:6, 17
10. Gen. 2:17; 2:15-3:24
11. Gen. 1:28-30; Psa. 8:6-8

This is contra the beasts who are said to be "brute" which in the greek actually means "without reason."

Jud 1:10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves.

2Pe 2:12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption,

G249
Î±Ì“ÌÎ»Î¿Î³Î¿Ï‚
alogos
al'-og-os
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G3056; irrational: - brute, unreasonable.

G249
Î±Ì“ÌÎ»Î¿Î³Î¿Ï‚
alogos
Thayer Definition:
1) destitute of reason
2) contrary to reason, absurd
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayer´s/Strong´s Number: from G1 (as a negative particle) and G3056
Citing in TDNT: 4:141, 505

Psa 32:9 Do not be like the horse or like the mule, Which have no understanding, Which must be harnessed with bit and bridle, Else they will not come near you.

Pro 30:2 Surely I am more stupid than any man, And do not have the understanding of a man.

Laura · #13 (**permalink**) 05-10-2006, 10:58 AM

That's very helpful, Jeff, thanks. I had no idea about the Greek root. The mention of absurdity reminds me: I as thinking awhile back that for even my Christian friends, what most amuses them is nonsense. I mean imagining situations that are utterly senseless, plotting ridiculous schemes just for the fun of it, etc. I'm not saying that it is in itself always reprehensible, but it's definitely something worth considering. Looking back a hundred years ago to what was considered humorous, it's telling how we've evolved. Then, comedy tended to make sense at the least, and was tasteful and intelligent at best. Now the weirder something is, the funnier; not merely in the sense of ironic, as in something you wouldn't expect, but things that have only the minimal basis in reality. Not to mention the more and more typical appeals to the basest desires of humanity for humor. I guess when we are in a world that seems increasingly to hate reason--except when it helps make the weaker argument appear the stronger, a la Sophist rhetoric--that's to be expected.

Magma2 · #14 (**permalink**) 05-10-2006, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BobVigneault
God's thinking is best described as hyper-logic of which logic as we know it is a shadow or extenision of God's hyper-logic. Hyper-logic takes place in an infinitely multi-dimensional environment which is the mind of God. Logic was indeed created for the specific purpose of revelaton. Hyper-logic however is the reasoning of God and is pre-eternal.

I made all of this up. I'm calling dibs on 'hyper-logic'. Perhaps I'll right the book.

Maybe when you write that book you'll explain what hyper-logic is and how you know God thinks in these mysterious and unexplained forms? Also, what does pre-eternal mean? Sounds like an oxymoron. :bigsmile:

BobVigneault · #15 (**permalink**) 05-10-2006, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magma2

Quote:

Originally posted by BobVigneault
God's thinking is best described as hyper-logic of which logic as we know it is a shadow or extenision of God's hyper-logic. Hyper-logic takes place in an infinitely multi-dimensional environment which is the mind of God. Logic was indeed created for the specific purpose of revelaton. Hyper-logic however is the reasoning of God and is pre-eternal.

I made all of this up. I'm calling dibs on 'hyper-logic'. Perhaps I'll right the book.

Maybe when you write that book you'll explain what hyper-logic is and how you know God thinks in these mysterious and unexplained forms? Also, what does pre-eternal mean? Sounds like an oxymoron. :bigsmile:

No definitions are necessary Sean. My target audience will be young pastors who want to make a quick name for themselves. "Hyper-logic" and "Pre-eternal" are buzzwords, or rather the new fad is to call them 'nuances'. These young theologs will use these nuanced words and never define them. They will put down anyone who calls for definitions by accusing the inquisitors of 'a lack of sophistry' and 'pharisaical heresy hunting'. I will point out that Augustine, Calvin and even Paul himself used these hellinistic concepts but never actually named them.

Don't stop me now Sean, there is a bundle of cash to be made here. So watch who you call an 'oxymoron'. I'm a hyper-moron!

ChristianTrader · #16 (**permalink**) 05-10-2006, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magma2

Quote:

God created Logic and thinks in a Logical fashion. We think in a manner that is in the likeness of how God thinks, but with succession and contemplation (God does not have to think successive thoughts nor contemplate). We are to think logically and recognize that there is an invariant, transcendental universal known as "Logic" or the "Laws of Logic," as being the manner of rational thought created by God Himself.

If logic is created then was there a time prior to its creation when God did not think logically?

Two points/questions,

1)For your objection to have teeth, you would have to believe that time is eternal and God did not create it. I should hope that no one here believes such. If one believes that time is created, then bringing logic in at the same time is not a problem.

2)What does thinking logically mean when applied to God?

LadyFlynt · #17 (**permalink**) 05-10-2006, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LadyFlynt
Is this what is meant by "reasonable soul"

Shorter Catechism Q 22
Q: How did Christ, being the Son of God, become man?
A: Christ, the Son of God, became man, by taking to himself a true body, and a reasonable soul,1 being conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost, in the womb of the Virgin Mary, and born of her,2 yet without sin.3

No one has an answer for a simple question?

WrittenFromUtopia · #18 (**permalink**) 05-10-2006, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ChristianTrader

Quote:

Originally posted by Magma2

Quote:

God created Logic and thinks in a Logical fashion. We think in a manner that is in the likeness of how God thinks, but with succession and contemplation (God does not have to think successive thoughts nor contemplate). We are to think logically and recognize that there is an invariant, transcendental universal known as "Logic" or the "Laws of Logic," as being the manner of rational thought created by God Himself.

If logic is created then was there a time prior to its creation when God did not think logically?

Two points/questions,

1)For your objection to have teeth, you would have to believe that time is eternal and God did not create it. I should hope that no one here believes such. If one believes that time is created, then bringing logic in at the same time is not a problem.

2)What does thinking logically mean when applied to God?

Thank you. The trigger happy heresy hunt can move along.

Jeff_Bartel · #19 (**permalink**) 05-10-2006, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LadyFlynt

Quote:

Originally posted by LadyFlynt
Is this what is meant by "reasonable soul"

Shorter Catechism Q 22
Q: How did Christ, being the Son of God, become man?
A: Christ, the Son of God, became man, by taking to himself a true body, and a reasonable soul,1 being conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost, in the womb of the Virgin Mary, and born of her,2 yet without sin.3

No one has an answer for a simple question?

If I understand your question correctly, then yes.

Magma2 · #20 (**permalink**) 05-10-2006, 01:40 PM

Quote:

If logic is created then was there a time prior to its creation when God did not think logically?

Two points/questions,

1)For your objection to have teeth, you would have to believe that time is eternal and God did not create it. I should hope that no one here believes such. If one believes that time is created, then bringing logic in at the same time is not a problem.

2)What does thinking logically mean when applied to God?

1. That doesn't follow. If logic is created then there was a point when it was not. As for time, I would say that it is the experience of thoughts as they pass through the minds of men -- and other created beings I suppose (although I have doubts about my dog) -- as they exist in the eternal mind of God. Consequently, I fail to see how a question of time impacts the question of whether or not the forms of logic, without which all rational thought and communication would be impossible, are created?

2. I would think it means the same thing as when applied to men.

Hope that helps.

Magma2 · #21 (**permalink**) 05-10-2006, 01:43 PM

Quote:

No definitions are necessary Sean. My target audience will be young pastors who want to make a quick name for themselves. "Hyper-logic" and "Pre-eternal" are buzzwords, or rather the new fad is to call them 'nuances'. These young theologs will use these nuanced words and never define them. They will put down anyone who calls for definitions by accusing the inquisitors of 'a lack of sophistry' and 'pharisaical heresy hunting'. I will point out that Augustine, Calvin and even Paul himself used these hellinistic concepts but never actually named them.

Don't stop me now Sean, there is a bundle of cash to be made here. So watch who you call an 'oxymoron'. I'm a hyper-moron!

It's all very Dooyeweerdian. But if you can make a buck, who am I to complain. :P

WrittenFromUtopia · #22 (**permalink**) 05-10-2006, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Laura
It seems that things get pretty messy when we say that God created logic...

No they don't.

BobVigneault · #23 (**permalink**) 05-10-2006, 02:01 PM

Gabe,
I've heard many a teacher refer to the Logos as the 'logic' of God. They speak as if the revelation of God in Christ is synonymous with 'The Logic". Is there a speck of truth in that? Is it good exegesis or is it just wishful thinking?